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So I've read posts that seem to indicate one way, and then the other. I am curious if there is a general consensus for how Typhus and his Destroyer Hive work in combat. For a hypothetical example, Typhus and his zombies charge in. The champion is dead, and Typhus is forced to issue a challenge because him and an opponent are within range of combat. The dirty space marine character is at I4, so Typhus wants to use his destroyer hive which would go at I5 as per the Destroyer Hive rule. The BRB states that characters in challenges are considered to be in base to base, and that they can can only strike blows against each other.

However, the CSM book states that the destroyer hive is used in lieu of attacking, so is that considered something else than "striking blows"?. Now the FAQ states

Q: Can Wounds caused by a character in a challenge only be
allocated to the opposing character in the challenge? (p64)
A: Yes.

So it seems as though the Destroyer Hive can be activated, and perhaps can deal hits on other models, but that the wounds done could only be allocated to the opposing character in the challenge. From reading, I am unable to tell if this would happen as "Wounds tallied on enemy models hit and then stack on the enemy champion" and then the destroyer hive could not do any friendly wounds as he can only allocate wounds to the opposing character.

This, however, feels a little cheesy to me. It feels as though ROI would be that the destroyer hive should only hit, and wound, the enemy champion, so I am wondering if there is a bit of misinterpretation on my part, or a particular rule that I am missing that clears this up. Does anyone know for sure how this would work? Curious as I am tired of Typhus getting caught in forced challenges.

It's covered in the CSM FAQ

 BarBoBot wrote:
It's covered in the CSM FAQ

It's actually not.

The FAQ reads: If Typhus is engaged in a challenge and chooses to use the destroyer hive, do you centre the template over him and resolve hits as normal against all units with models under the template, or does the destroyer hive only hit the model against which Typhus is fighting his challenge?
A: It hits all units with models touched as normal.

Before this FAQ, there were three interpretations of how the Hive would work in a challenge.

1). It only does a single hit to the challengee.

2). It does a single hit to the challengee, as well as a hit to the unit that challengee belonged too for each model under the template.

3). The hive causes a hit for each model under the template, but because hits can only be allocated from Typhus to the challengee, all the hits caused the Hive are allocated onto the chalengee.

The FAQ only answers the first interpretation. It is still ambiguous how this is supposed to work.

Yes, sorry not a clue how I missed this CSM FAQ change, but this does raise the question that rollawaythestone asked. I would think that, logically, the wounds would be allocated to the models as per 2, but that rule about only being able to wound the combatant makes me thing it is explanation 3.

Any thoughts?

The intent of the rule would probably be #2, and that's how my group has played it. But RAW, my sense is that #3 is correct.

The problem is interpreting what they mean by "it hits all units with models touched as normal." Do they mean normal for a challenge? Or normal as in normal shooting allocation?

Telsiph wrote:
Yes, sorry not a clue how I missed this CSM FAQ change, but this does raise the question that rollawaythestone asked. I would think that, logically, the wounds would be allocated to the models as per 2, but that rule about only being able to wound the combatant makes me thing it is explanation 3.

Any thoughts?

Pretty sure you never allocate wounds from a unit onto another unit unless a rule specifies such, and challenges don't do that, so you'd hit every unit under it individually.

rollawaythestone wrote:

The problem is interpreting what they mean by "it hits all units with models touched as normal." Do they mean normal for a challenge? Or normal as in normal shooting allocation?

Normal as in you look at whats under the template. That's hit. If there's a IC under it they take one, if there are 3 models from different units under it those 3 units take one. So it does indeed look covered.

KaryudoDS wrote:

Telsiph wrote:
Yes, sorry not a clue how I missed this CSM FAQ change, but this does raise the question that rollawaythestone asked. I would think that, logically, the wounds would be allocated to the models as per 2, but that rule about only being able to wound the combatant makes me thing it is explanation 3.

Any thoughts?

Pretty sure you never allocate wounds from a unit onto another unit unless a rule specifies such, and challenges don't do that, so you'd hit every unit under it individually.

rollawaythestone wrote:

The problem is interpreting what they mean by "it hits all units with models touched as normal." Do they mean normal for a challenge? Or normal as in normal shooting allocation?

Normal as in you look at whats under the template. That's hit. If there's a IC under it they take one, if there are 3 models from different units under it those 3 units take one. So it does indeed look covered.

An IC, or a Character in a challenge still counts as being a part of the same unit (if it was part of that unit in the assault). If I cast a malediction on a unit, such as Enfeeble, that targets 'the unit', I don't have to specify whether it hits the grunts or the Independent Character - it hits all of them, because they are all 'the unit'.

Wounds are allocated to units from the Destroyer Hive - not individual models. The wording for Typhus' power says so. Do you see the issue?

rollawaythestone wrote:

Wounds are allocated to units from the Destroyer Hive - not individual models. The wording for Typhus' power says so. Do you see the issue?

I'm aware of the wording of the rule and you summed it up well previously. What is this issue though? If an IC and two other models from the unit they were with were under the template you would apply 3 wounds to the unit according to CSM and if they're all in base contact with Typhus the opposing player would get to pick which models to apply each of the wounds to according to the BRB. Thus they could apply those wounds to the IC, but they wouldn't have to. Not until an FAQ says otherwise, but the rules for hitting a unit are in the BRB and if they point that out in the FAQ then that's what I would go with.

You can only allocate wounds in a challenge to the model you are in a challenge with. So no matter what happens you will generate hits, wounds and populate the wound pool however these can only be allocated onto the character. Which makes little sense.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Which makes little sense.

Have you met my friends the GW design team?
They always mess up stuff like this.

Typhus is in B2B with the challengee. He farts destroyer hive, all models under it take a hit including the challenge. That's it.

 Spyral wrote:
Typhus is in B2B with the challengee. He farts destroyer hive, all models under it take a hit including the challenge. That's it.

SO, what abotu the issue with wound allocation? Who can the resultant wounds, if any, be allocated to?

 Spyral wrote:
Typhus is in B2B with the challengee. He farts destroyer hive, all models under it take a hit including the challenge. That's it.

This is wrong. The UNIT takes hits. Not individual models. Thus, the problem becomes how do you allocate the hits to the unit when Typhus is in the challenge. Do you allocate them as if the challenge was not happening (the attacked player allocates them from closest to farthest)? Or do they have to go all on the challengee, because hits cannot be allocated outside the challenge?

rollawaythestone wrote:

This is wrong. The UNIT takes hits. Not individual models. Thus, the problem becomes how do you allocate the hits to the unit when Typhus is in the challenge. Do you allocate them as if the challenge was not happening (the attacked player allocates them from closest to farthest)? Or do they have to go all on the challengee, because hits cannot be allocated outside the challenge?

The Unit does take the hit but it more than likely would only apply to the models under the template as you pick the closest first anyway and if any unit only has a single model under it only that model would take that specific wound.

And yes you can allocate wounds outside of a challenge because the rule specifically lets you do that and the FAQ clarifies it.

A: It hits all units with models touched as normal

This literally has no point in being in the FAQ at all if you're only supposed to apply wounds to the challengee.

KaryudoDS wrote:

rollawaythestone wrote:

This is wrong. The UNIT takes hits. Not individual models. Thus, the problem becomes how do you allocate the hits to the unit when Typhus is in the challenge. Do you allocate them as if the challenge was not happening (the attacked player allocates them from closest to farthest)? Or do they have to go all on the challengee, because hits cannot be allocated outside the challenge?

The Unit does take the hit but it more than likely would only apply to the models under the template as you pick the closest first anyway and if any unit only has a single model under it only that model would take that specific wound.

And yes you can allocate wounds outside of a challenge because the rule specifically lets you do that and the FAQ clarifies it.

A: It hits all units with models touched as normal

This literally has no point in being in the FAQ at all if you're only supposed to apply wounds to the challengee.

That's the problem. Do they mean normal as if the challenge wasn't happening? Or do they mean normal for a challenge? The FAQ is ambiguous, and thus does not clarify that you are allowed to allocate outside the challenge. The context of the answer is Typhus being in a challenge. Thus, 'normal' refers to the challenge rules.

I agree now that it should be played as if the challenge wasn't happening, and the wounds get allocated from closest to farthest - but it's still ambiguous about how it interacts with the challenge rule - as nothing explicitly says you are allowed to allocate outside the challenge.

Personally, I would treat it exactly as you would a barrage that scattered over an ongoing assault.

rollawaythestone wrote:


That's the problem. Do they mean normal as if the challenge wasn't happening? Or do they mean normal for a challenge? The FAQ is ambiguous, and thus does not clarify that you are allowed to allocate outside the challenge.

It hits ALL units is ambiguous? Seriously?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Please explain to me why it would ambiguously specify ALL when there is only ONE unit of ONE model that would be affected? All suggests more than one to me.

Becuase you ARE NOT a seperate unit within challenges. You are still a normal member of the unit

Find permission to allocate wounds outside of challenges given the specific FAQ saying you are not allowed to do so. The FAQ answer for Typhus does NOT mention allocation

Saying it hits as normal means as it would normally hit when not restricted by the challenge situation that the question brought up. Because that's how the language works.

Yes, you have worked out that it htis normally. So if you cover 1 model in the challenge, 3 other models from that unit and 2 from another unit, successfully wounding all models, do you:


a) Allocate ALL wounds (6) to the model in the challenge with Typhus?
b) Allocate ALL wounds caused to the unit which has the model in the challenge (4) to the model in the challenge with Typhus; the other 2 are lost (following the FAQ disallowing you from allocating wounds outside of the challenge)
c) Same as b), except you still allocate the wounds to the unit not in the challenge to the unit, as they are a separate unit - notwithstanding that this would then allow the same to happen in any combat involving multiple units, and would still go against the rules

a) and b) definitely break no rules such as the FAQ, however a) is the wonkiest as it breaks the convention that wounds from one unit cannot affect another.

d) It's treated as normal for a large blast marker.

Dra'al Nacht wrote:
d) It's treated as normal for a large blast marker.

Except that breaks the rules

Seriously, dont just post an assertion that has been proven wrong, actually engage witht he argument and follow the tenets of this forum by providing actual rules.

You are NOT ALLOWED to allocate wounds to models other than the one you are engaged ina challenge with. Please explain how your "d)" solution above is an exception to this. With rules quotes.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Dra'al Nacht wrote:
d) It's treated as normal for a large blast marker.

Except that breaks the rules

Seriously, dont just post an assertion that has been proven wrong, actually engage witht he argument and follow the tenets of this forum by providing actual rules.

You are NOT ALLOWED to allocate wounds to models other than the one you are engaged ina challenge with. Please explain how your "d)" solution above is an exception to this. With rules quotes.

"But Jervis said..."

The rules for challenges (page 64) merely say that the combatants can only strike blows against one another. I can't see anything about wound allocations. (Edit- except for wounds from other attackers not being able to be allocated against either character.)
Typhus isn't striking blows when he unleashes the Destroyer Hive.
He isn't actually attacking at all. The rule specifically states that it is unleashed instead of attacking.

Dra'al Nacht wrote:
The rules for challenges (page 64) merely say that the combatants can only strike blows against one another. I can't see anything about wound allocations. (Edit- except for wounds from other attackers not being able to be allocated against either character.)
Typhus isn't striking blows when he unleashes the Destroyer Hive.
He isn't actually attacking at all. The rule specifically states that it is unleashed instead of attacking.

wounds are allocated to models in base contact before any other models. As your character can only allocate wounds to the opposing character this point is invalid.

Dra'al Nacht wrote:The rules for challenges (page 64) merely say that the combatants can only strike blows against one another. I can't see anything about wound allocations.

Allocations really aren't covered in the BRB properly and this is actually in the FAQ answering what you do with left over wounds etc however...

Scipio Africanus wrote:wounds are allocated to models in base contact before any other models. As your character can only allocate wounds to the opposing character this point is invalid.

No it's not. When Typhus uses Destroyer Hive it inflicts wounds to ALL UNITS with models under it equal to the number of models from each unit friend or foe. The FAQ reiterates this. This also conflicts with the BRB as you suggest however the last paragraph on page 7 of the BRB tells me the Codex overrides the BRB. So how is this case invalid then?

KaryudoDS wrote:

Dra'al Nacht wrote:The rules for challenges (page 64) merely say that the combatants can only strike blows against one another. I can't see anything about wound allocations.

Allocations really aren't covered in the BRB properly and this is actually in the FAQ answering what you do with left over wounds etc however...

Scipio Africanus wrote:wounds are allocated to models in base contact before any other models. As your character can only allocate wounds to the opposing character this point is invalid.

No it's not. When Typhus uses Destroyer Hive it inflicts wounds to ALL UNITS with models under it equal to the number of models from each unit friend or foe. The FAQ reiterates this. This also conflicts with the BRB as you suggest however the last paragraph on page 7 of the BRB tells me the Codex overrides the BRB. So how is this case invalid then?

Because there are rules for how you deal damage to a unit when you are in a challenge - that you may only strike blows against the challengee, and that you only count as in base contact with the challengee. So by RAW, all the accumulated hits and wounds from the Hive, get dumped on the challengee.

I disagree with this ruling based on RAI, and that's not how my group plays it, but it would be nice to actually see the written rules support the RAI interpretation. My opinion is that it should be played as if the challenge was not happening. However, "as normal" from the FAQ is ambiguous. As normal for a challenge - which is the context of the sentence, that is, talking about challenges? Or as normal - not in a challenge?

rollawaythestone wrote:


Because there are rules for how you deal damage to a unit when you are in a challenge - that you may only strike blows against the challengee, and that you only count as in base contact with the challengee. So by RAW, all the accumulated hits and wounds from the Hive, get dumped on the challengee.

I disagree with this ruling based on RAI, and that's not how my group plays it, but it would be nice to actually see the written rules support the RAI interpretation. My opinion is that it should be played as if the challenge was not happening. However, "as normal" from the FAQ is ambiguous. As normal for a challenge - which is the context of the sentence, that is, talking about challenges? Or as normal - not in a challenge?

Normal as in how the rule itself normally works? It does say they count as being is base contact but I see nothing about "striking blows" just that wounds may only be allocated to the challenge (which is almost the same) but Destroyer Hive tells you to wound all units, so I don't see how RAW tells you to dump those on the challengee when you literally aren't allowed to apply wounds to other units to begin with. I agree the wording might be a bit murky for some but it looks like a direct contradiction to me.

Karyudo - again.

In a challenge you MAY ON:LY allocate wounds to the model you are in a challenge with. This is directly from the FAQ, and unarguable

The FAQ for DH simply state you wound "as normal". To Wound is a separate and distinct action from Allocating wounds.

THere is no conflict, as the codex tells you to wound as normal, and the FAQ then states wha tyou may do with the allocated wounds; they may ONLY be allocated to the person in the challenge. That is it.