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I had a question about drop pods from Forge World. I was playing a game and my opponent used a drop pod to land a dreadnought amongst my deployment zone on Turn 1. It scattered, landed ontop of my troops. He said it can't mishap, and stops when it hits an obstacle. So it ends up right up against one of my squads. He deploys the Armor 13 dreadnought, uses a heavy flamer and then assaults in and scatters a 10 man squad of CSM marines because none of them can hurt the dreadnought and it gets 4 attacks with chain fists. Is there somewhere online that I can get the rules for Forge World units? I don't play as SM personally, but I was under the assumption that you couldn't assault out of drop pods, because it seems unbalancing that a unit can pretty much garuntee a turn 1 assault every game without any risk of mishap.

1) He was using a Lucius Pattern Drop Pod
2) To get the FW rules you must buy the book. Dakka cannot advise you otherwise (shockingly enough)
3) He should have taken a dangerous terrain test in order to assault, as per the latest rules for the pod, and it also takes up a fast attack slot.

The Forge World drop pod has a special rule that let's you assault out of it. It does cost a lot more points than a normal pod though and the dreadnought must take a terrain test or be immobilized.

So he's spending a lot of points to kill a tactical squad. Squish it during your turn.

Your opponent should have the rules with him, and your permission to use them before the battle. He can't use it if he doesn't have both.

He said it was a AV13 dreadnought so thats th ironclad which has move through cover so auto pass DT rolls.

If he was using BA and it was a furioso then he couldnt use the Lucius drop pod. He should have showed you the rules bfore the game out of common decency

I'm not sure if he was using BA or not. I don't think he was. But, yeah, the dreadnought had AV13 and pretty much walked through one of my squads because they couldn't even hurt it back. No sort of dangerous terrain test was taken by the dreadnought.. it basically came in on Turn 1 and went right into assault. And with AV13, there wasn't much I could do to it with my auto cannons and missile launchers. Sigh, Forge World is so silly. Pay more $$ and get units with better stats?

Dra'al Nacht wrote:
Your opponent should have the rules with him, and your permission to use them before the battle. He can't use it if he doesn't have both.

I concur with having the rules to let them be checked, but I read somewhere (not sure, but I'm confident it was either the gw or fw site) that gw has "semi-sanctioned" fw rules, so you now just have to inform your opponent that you use them, needing no more to ask for permission. (of course type of battle still counts, still no apocalypse units in apocalypse battles ^^)

Quite a lot of FW units are "40K approved" and as such you don't need permission. Ofc your opponent can still refuse to play you, and many will just because they don't know what the unit does but have heard horror stories of OP FW stuff.

GW in general is "pay up for better units" so the very few truly outrageous FW options don't really shift the equation. There's always a player who will buy the newest Codex and a full army for it just to be on top.

 Iron Dragon wrote:
I'm not sure if he was using BA or not. I don't think he was. But, yeah, the dreadnought had AV13 and pretty much walked through one of my squads because they couldn't even hurt it back. No sort of dangerous terrain test was taken by the dreadnought.. it basically came in on Turn 1 and went right into assault. And with AV13, there wasn't much I could do to it with my auto cannons and missile launchers. Sigh, Forge World is so silly. Pay more $$ and get units with better stats?

Its nothing to do with the FW rules - in ths case its very much the player that is the problem.

its the same as any other player - who tells you what the rules "are" and has nothing to back them up. I have had people do that with Codex units and have a tantrum if you question them - but don't have the Codex to back them up.

There is nothing wrong with a Lucius Drop Pod if you know what it does, it has a lot of shock factor but you do pay for it. and ff your squad didnt have a Meltabomb or Powerfist or something that can hurt it, thats more a problem with your list to fix for next time.

Boomstick wrote:
There is nothing wrong with a Lucius Drop Pod if you know what it does, it has a lot of shock factor but you do pay for it. and ff your squad didnt have a Meltabomb or Powerfist or something that can hurt it, thats more a problem with your list to fix for next time.

That's not the point. I'm asking about the capabilities of the drop pod.

 Iron Dragon wrote:

Boomstick wrote:
There is nothing wrong with a Lucius Drop Pod if you know what it does, it has a lot of shock factor but you do pay for it. and ff your squad didnt have a Meltabomb or Powerfist or something that can hurt it, thats more a problem with your list to fix for next time.

That's not the point. I'm asking about the capabilities of the drop pod.

But the point is, you should have asked to see the rules from your opponent and if he didn't have them, then there's simply no reason you should continue to play him...or you just tell him that you're playing the FW super-space marine rules and that all of your guys gets to fire an unlimited amount of times each turn with a S10 weapon that has unlimited range and does not require line of sight until his entire force is wiped out.

The point being, how can you simply trust what somebody says the rules for something are if you don't check them? How can you possibly plan to defend against something if you have no idea what it does? You don't need to find the rules online (because they aren't), you need to ASK YOUR OPPONENT for them and if they don't have those rules, then how can they play with them anymore then you can't use your 'super space marines' that automatically kill everything?


It sounds like what he did was within the capabilities of what the Lucius allows, but obviously we can't tell you for sure without all the details (what army he was using, what Dreadnought type it was carrying, etc). Hell, he could have been using the 'old' outdated rules for all you or we know.

So we can't answer your question in any meaningful way. You need to get the rules from your opponent and read them carefully before you next play...and you should probably do the same for every type of unit you're unsure of.


And finally, yes, Lucius Pods are nasty, but all you have to do is bubble-wrap whatever you don't want killed with units you don't care so much about and let the Dreadnought kill one of your units, then proceed to kill it. Remember that he's burned 50 points and a Fast Attack slot to get this pod (if he's using the current rules correctly) and he does have to take a Dangerous Terrain test to assault when he arrives (unless the Dread is an Ironclad). And finally, Blood Angels cannot use the Lucius.

Why does an ironclad have to take a dangerous terrain check, out of curiousity? Doesn't it have MTC and thus it should be the least likely to need to test?

 yakface wrote:

 Iron Dragon wrote:

Boomstick wrote:
There is nothing wrong with a Lucius Drop Pod if you know what it does, it has a lot of shock factor but you do pay for it. and ff your squad didnt have a Meltabomb or Powerfist or something that can hurt it, thats more a problem with your list to fix for next time.

That's not the point. I'm asking about the capabilities of the drop pod.

But the point is, you should have asked to see the rules from your opponent and if he didn't have them, then there's simply no reason you should continue to play him...or you just tell him that you're playing the FW super-space marine rules and that all of your guys gets to fire an unlimited amount of times each turn with a S10 weapon that has unlimited range and does not require line of sight until his entire force is wiped out.

The point being, how can you simply trust what somebody says the rules for something are if you don't check them? How can you possibly plan to defend against something if you have no idea what it does? You don't need to find the rules online (because they aren't), you need to ASK YOUR OPPONENT for them and if they don't have those rules, then how can they play with them anymore then you can't use your 'super space marines' that automatically kill everything?


It sounds like what he did was within the capabilities of what the Lucius allows, but obviously we can't tell you for sure without all the details (what army he was using, what Dreadnought type it was carrying, etc). Hell, he could have been using the 'old' outdated rules for all you or we know.

So we can't answer your question in any meaningful way. You need to get the rules from your opponent and read them carefully before you next play...and you should probably do the same for every type of unit you're unsure of.


And finally, yes, Lucius Pods are nasty, but all you have to do is bubble-wrap whatever you don't want killed with units you don't care so much about and let the Dreadnought kill one of your units, then proceed to kill it. Remember that he's burned 50 points and a Fast Attack slot to get this pod (if he's using the current rules correctly) and he does have to take a Dangerous Terrain test to assault when he arrives (unless the Dread is an Ironclad). And finally, Blood Angels cannot use the Lucius.

You're right, it's my responsibility to ask. I just feel a bit weird sometimes asking people to clarify things or show me how they work in their codex, because it feels like I'm accusing them of lying or being wrong. I'm still pretty new to the game, and I also feel like a dummy when I have to ask for more information about people's units. When I play someone, I'll usually go down my list before the game and tell them what I'm playing and what each unit has. Most of the time it feels like they're not really paying attention to me, like they already know how to handle my army. So when I hear someone else's list and say "Wait, that unit does what?" I guess it just makes me feel even more like a newbie.

I wasn't being snippy towards Boomstick, I just didn't want to turn this into a list-building discussion. On that subject, it's a 1,000 point game and I just didn't have room for fitting in extra things with every unit. I wish I could squeeze a melta into every squad, but it just can't happen sometimes.

I have a feeling he was running standard SM, but I can't be 100% sure because there were some assault marines in his list, and his roommate plays as BA. I don't feel like he was cheating or anything, or that he ever would cheat. I consider him a good friend. But, he's even newer to the game than I am and he didn't have the rules with him for the drop pod. So, I figured I'd ask because I checked the Forge World website and saw no information about it. I guess it's just something I'm going to have to deal with.

By the way, Yakface, are you one of the guys who does the 11th Company podcast?

 Iron Dragon wrote:

You're right, it's my responsibility to ask. I just feel a bit weird sometimes asking people to clarify things or show me how they work in their codex, because it feels like I'm accusing them of lying or being wrong. I'm still pretty new to the game, and I also feel like a dummy when I have to ask for more information about people's units. When I play someone, I'll usually go down my list before the game and tell them what I'm playing and what each unit has. Most of the time it feels like they're not really paying attention to me, like they already know how to handle my army. So when I hear someone else's list and say "Wait, that unit does what?" I guess it just makes me feel even more like a newbie.

I wasn't being snippy towards Boomstick, I just didn't want to turn this into a list-building discussion. On that subject, it's a 1,000 point game and I just didn't have room for fitting in extra things with every unit. I wish I could squeeze a melta into every squad, but it just can't happen sometimes.

I have a feeling he was running standard SM, but I can't be 100% sure because there were some assault marines in his list, and his roommate plays as BA. I don't feel like he was cheating or anything, or that he ever would cheat. I consider him a good friend. But, he's even newer to the game than I am and he didn't have the rules with him for the drop pod. So, I figured I'd ask because I checked the Forge World website and saw no information about it. I guess it's just something I'm going to have to deal with.

By the way, Yakface, are you one of the guys who does the 11th Company podcast?

I have been interviewed on 11th company a several times, but I am not one of the people who makes that show.


You should never be ashamed to ask your opponent to see their rules, especially if you're relatively new. When you look at their army list, if there is anything on there you don't recognize, just say: Hey, I'm still kind of new to 40k, would you mind if I borrow your codex other rules so I can learn exactly what I'm playing against?

One of the more dangerous/tricky things about Imperial Armor is that they've released so many books and each time they often update the rules quite radically for the same unit, so only the most current version of the rules is what they should be using. So before you agree to play a game against someone using Forgeworld, you should always ask to see a copy of the rules they're using for that unit, and if they don't have the rules, then you shouldn't agree to play the game.

Assuming they have the rules, take note from what book those rules are in, and then after the game, go to the Adepticon.org website, to the 'downloads' link and on the rules resources page there is a PDF for the 'IA/Apoc allowed units'...that PDF contains a list for nearly all Imperial Armor units and which book you can find the most current rules for that unit.

Use that list to double-check your buddy is using the right rules for his unit, and if he's not refuse to play him with that unit until he gets a copy of the proper rules.

 Iron Dragon wrote:

You're right, it's my responsibility to ask. I just feel a bit weird sometimes asking people to clarify things or show me how they work in their codex, because it feels like I'm accusing them of lying or being wrong. I'm still pretty new to the game, and I also feel like a dummy when I have to ask for more information about people's units. When I play someone, I'll usually go down my list before the game and tell them what I'm playing and what each unit has. Most of the time it feels like they're not really paying attention to me, like they already know how to handle my army. So when I hear someone else's list and say "Wait, that unit does what?" I guess it just makes me feel even more like a newbie.

Accuse him of being a liar. if he doesn't have the rules at hand, he probably is lying and wants to pull a fast one.

 yakface wrote:

 Iron Dragon wrote:

You're right, it's my responsibility to ask. I just feel a bit weird sometimes asking people to clarify things or show me how they work in their codex, because it feels like I'm accusing them of lying or being wrong. I'm still pretty new to the game, and I also feel like a dummy when I have to ask for more information about people's units. When I play someone, I'll usually go down my list before the game and tell them what I'm playing and what each unit has. Most of the time it feels like they're not really paying attention to me, like they already know how to handle my army. So when I hear someone else's list and say "Wait, that unit does what?" I guess it just makes me feel even more like a newbie.

I wasn't being snippy towards Boomstick, I just didn't want to turn this into a list-building discussion. On that subject, it's a 1,000 point game and I just didn't have room for fitting in extra things with every unit. I wish I could squeeze a melta into every squad, but it just can't happen sometimes.

I have a feeling he was running standard SM, but I can't be 100% sure because there were some assault marines in his list, and his roommate plays as BA. I don't feel like he was cheating or anything, or that he ever would cheat. I consider him a good friend. But, he's even newer to the game than I am and he didn't have the rules with him for the drop pod. So, I figured I'd ask because I checked the Forge World website and saw no information about it. I guess it's just something I'm going to have to deal with.

By the way, Yakface, are you one of the guys who does the 11th Company podcast?

I have been interviewed on 11th company a several times, but I am not one of the people who makes that show.


You should never be ashamed to ask your opponent to see their rules, especially if you're relatively new. When you look at their army list, if there is anything on there you don't recognize, just say: Hey, I'm still kind of new to 40k, would you mind if I borrow your codex other rules so I can learn exactly what I'm playing against?

One of the more dangerous/tricky things about Imperial Armor is that they've released so many books and each time they often update the rules quite radically for the same unit, so only the most current version of the rules is what they should be using. So before you agree to play a game against someone using Forgeworld, you should always ask to see a copy of the rules they're using for that unit, and if they don't have the rules, then you shouldn't agree to play the game.

Assuming they have the rules, take note from what book those rules are in, and then after the game, go to the Adepticon.org website, to the 'downloads' link and on the rules resources page there is a PDF for the 'IA/Apoc allowed units'...that PDF contains a list for nearly all Imperial Armor units and which book you can find the most current rules for that unit.

Use that list to double-check your buddy is using the right rules for his unit, and if he's not refuse to play him with that unit until he gets a copy of the proper rules.

Ah, alright. I think I've heard you on that podcast at some point and the name sounded familiar.

I keep wishing that when we have tournaments at our FLGS, we could not allow Forge World stuff. There's several players who use things from their website and it just kind of feels a bit unfair because those units seem like they're just a little bit better than the 'standard' 40K stuff from the codex. It's probably my imagination though. I guess it feels like playing a video game, and some people have purchased an expansion with new content.

Scipio, I absolutely trust the guy I was playing not to deliberately cheat. He just didn't have the rules with him and there was some question of its capabilities. In the future though, I will be asking people to bring copies of their rules if they want to play with FW units.

Also, this was a practice game for our 1,000 point escalation game on Saturday. So, now I know that I need to make some changes to my list. Probably dropping Gift of Mutation from my daemon prince, and putting melta bombs in my two troop squads.

Dont be afraid of FW - 99% of the units in there are fairly priced, or often overpriced for their capabilities. Mostly they just have awesome models - so our local tournaments we allow FW, but you have to have the appropriate model. No normal SM dreadnoughts being contemptors, no nornal drop pods being Lucius pattern drop pods, etc.

You also asked about his drop pod not mishapping - this is partially true. If it *scatters* onto impassable terrain, enemy models etc such that it would mishap, it then reduces its scatter so it doesnt mishap. If it scatters off the board, or is placed such that it mishaps (so is placed on top of your models, for example), then it would still mishap

For completeness sake; here are the rules for using Imperial Armour (I wish people would stop simply using the name Forge World. Get it right, guys!)



Should you lack the desire or ability to follow these instructions in the spirit they were given, then maybe a social-contract game like 40K isn't for you....


...

 Iron Dragon wrote:

Ah, alright. I think I've heard you on that podcast at some point and the name sounded familiar.

I keep wishing that when we have tournaments at our FLGS, we could not allow Forge World stuff. There's several players who use things from their website and it just kind of feels a bit unfair because those units seem like they're just a little bit better than the 'standard' 40K stuff from the codex. It's probably my imagination though. I guess it feels like playing a video game, and some people have purchased an expansion with new content.

Scipio, I absolutely trust the guy I was playing not to deliberately cheat. He just didn't have the rules with him and there was some question of its capabilities. In the future though, I will be asking people to bring copies of their rules if they want to play with FW units.

Also, this was a practice game for our 1,000 point escalation game on Saturday. So, now I know that I need to make some changes to my list. Probably dropping Gift of Mutation from my daemon prince, and putting melta bombs in my two troop squads.

Its instances like this that lead people to insist that FW not be allowed, which is a real shame because the fault lies in the execution, not the actual rules.

Don't get me wrong, there is some nasty potent stuff in Imperial Armor, but there is waaay nastier potent stuff found in most of the codexes. So the issue is unfamiliarity on your part. You're getting blind-sided by something you have no idea what it does or how to counter and that is unfair. I get that your opponent is new, but if he's going to use Forgeworld, then he needs to have the rules so you have some chance to read up on what you're facing, full stop.

So once you start enforcing the basic etiquette of the game (players need to have their rules), then very soon the FW stuff won't seem any worse than stuff in the codex that you're more familiar with.

Which isn't to say that there is some magical counter against the Lucius in the army you're playing with, especially at the 1,000 point level, but the same can be said of many, many, many other units and combos your opponent can field.

So it just may come down to the fact that the best you can do is minimize the damage the Dreadnought can do. Spread your forces out wide so he can only kill a single one of your units, etc. And remember, the pod can still scatter off the table and mishap, so if you do put him in a position where he has to drop near a board edge, it is possible to cause a mishap like that.

 Iron Dragon wrote:

I keep wishing that when we have tournaments at our FLGS, we could not allow Forge World stuff. There's several players who use things from their website and it just kind of feels a bit unfair because those units seem like they're just a little bit better than the 'standard' 40K stuff from the codex. It's probably my imagination though. I guess it feels like playing a video game, and some people have purchased an expansion with new content.

I used to believe this, but really, Units like the Heldrake or Vendetta are just as overpowered if not more so than the best stuff in Forgeworld which are allowed in regular 40K. The only issue most people have with Forgeworld is that a lot of people don't have access to the Rules so cannot prepare a head of time and often, quite legitimiately, feel as though they've been blind sided by rules they didn't even know existed up until that moment. Yea forgeworld has some famous units, like the aforementioned lucious pattern pod, or Saber Platforms for Imperial Guard, or the Blight Drone, but most people just know OF them, and that they are scary, but not what their rules actually are.

I can just jog down to my FLGS, flip through a codex and get the rules and units of the units my enemies will be using in a regular game of 40K. Cannot do that with Forgeworld! I would have to buy multiple expensive books, that get updated often and make sure I have the most recent copy. This is frustrating at a competitive level where people want to be able to be familiar with the field of battle that they will be playing and putting both time and money at stake for.

 yakface wrote:

 Iron Dragon wrote:

Ah, alright. I think I've heard you on that podcast at some point and the name sounded familiar.

I keep wishing that when we have tournaments at our FLGS, we could not allow Forge World stuff. There's several players who use things from their website and it just kind of feels a bit unfair because those units seem like they're just a little bit better than the 'standard' 40K stuff from the codex. It's probably my imagination though. I guess it feels like playing a video game, and some people have purchased an expansion with new content.

Scipio, I absolutely trust the guy I was playing not to deliberately cheat. He just didn't have the rules with him and there was some question of its capabilities. In the future though, I will be asking people to bring copies of their rules if they want to play with FW units.

Also, this was a practice game for our 1,000 point escalation game on Saturday. So, now I know that I need to make some changes to my list. Probably dropping Gift of Mutation from my daemon prince, and putting melta bombs in my two troop squads.

Its instances like this that lead people to insist that FW not be allowed, which is a real shame because the fault lies in the execution, not the actual rules.

Don't get me wrong, there is some nasty potent stuff in Imperial Armor, but there is waaay nastier potent stuff found in most of the codexes. So the issue is unfamiliarity on your part. You're getting blind-sided by something you have no idea what it does or how to counter and that is unfair. I get that your opponent is new, but if he's going to use Forgeworld, then he needs to have the rules so you have some chance to read up on what you're facing, full stop.

So once you start enforcing the basic etiquette of the game (players need to have their rules), then very soon the FW stuff won't seem any worse than stuff in the codex that you're more familiar with.

Which isn't to say that there is some magical counter against the Lucius in the army you're playing with, especially at the 1,000 point level, but the same can be said of many, many, many other units and combos your opponent can field.

So it just may come down to the fact that the best you can do is minimize the damage the Dreadnought can do. Spread your forces out wide so he can only kill a single one of your units, etc. And remember, the pod can still scatter off the table and mishap, so if you do put him in a position where he has to drop near a board edge, it is possible to cause a mishap like that.

I didn't even know the drop pod would mishap if it landed off the table. I just figured it stopped at the edge, just like with terrain. That's certainly an interesting idea, setting up traps using terrain during game set up that leave very few drop pod options other than risking an off-table mishap!

Steelmage: Yes, I understand now. In the future I'll be sure to ask that FW or Imperial Armor units have a rules set at the table.

Thank you all for taking the time to answer and help me, it's appreciated.

Also remember to search on the forums for FW related topics.

There aren't that many 'super' FW units after all and most of the threads contain tactics against them or general pointers on how they work.

 Shandara wrote:
Also remember to search on the forums for FW related topics.

There aren't that many 'super' FW units after all and most of the threads contain tactics against them or general pointers on how they work.

I didn't think of that, thank you.

Indeed, there are very few "SUPER" FW units now, especially as one (the Hades breaching drill) has been HEAVILY reduced in power.

As to Yaks comment on codexes being as powerful or more - a simple example of this would be the Hydra tank, which when it was in imperial armour cost nearly as much as a landraider - when it appeared in 40k for Imperial Guard, minues 1 rule (anti aircraft mount) but PLUS a load more - it ended up being 1/3rd of the old points.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Why does an ironclad have to take a dangerous terrain check, out of curiousity? Doesn't it have MTC and thus it should be the least likely to need to test?

Correct, an Iclad dreadnought would not need to take the DT test. Thats what makes the Lucius Drop Pod amazing with Iclads.

He can only assault out of the drop pod if you agree to play with forge world rules. Wether or not you should play with forge world rules is another topic all together.

 Iron Dragon wrote:
In the future I'll be sure to ask that FW or Imperial Armor units have a rules set at the table.

Do the same for everything else too. It doesn't matter if it's FW, codex, WD, whatever. You should have the complete rules for everything in your army and be able to show them to anyone who asks. If you're not even sure what codex your opponent is playing (BA or C:SM) then you need to start asking more questions and demand to see some rules.

Also, be sure that they're using the FW drop pod model and not just a standard plastic drop pod with the FW rules. The dread pod is significantly larger than the standard drop pod, which makes a big difference when you're trying to find a legal spot to place it.

When I asked a friend about FW/IA being usable at tournaments, his answer was that they are generally NOT Allowed. But in reading above, it seems that they... might?

The units that I am the most concerned about are this drop pod mentioned above and the Dreadnaught with Skyfire.

Thanks!

More and more tournaments are allowing IA rules to be used. People have finally seen the truth that they arn't OP, usually the opposite, but rather just different. No different to a new codex being released.