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I got to wondering the other day. Why does this thing never seen any action. a 4+ inv is awesome..plus a safe spot to DS into if you put the shields down.

I see the defence line used in nearly every list..Now yes you can get a quad gun with it unlike the landing pad...but the 4+ you get from the landing pad cant be removed thanks to flamers and anything else that denies you cover.

What is everyone's feelings on this thing? Setting this thing up near the middle of the board and putting 30 shoota boys on it or in the back with as many lootas as you can fit seems like a pretty decent tactic.

They're great, but the rules for them create so many weird situations most people would rather not bother with them.

Plus its so big and with above I hear TO's just outright ban the thing.

The rules are whacky and leave a lot of unanswered questions, but the bigger reason is its common knowledge that its a dick move to bring it. 4+ invul for a gunline that also elevates you for 75pts? Way, way too good for the cost. They mess up charges, provide awesome line of sight, and an impossible to remove invul save (only ones i know of are melee that ignore it) so vehicles gain one hell of a benefit from it, not to mention squishy guns like lootas.

None of us run it in my group, and the few times someone tries to we raise hell about it because it is seriously a dick move to bring that.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
The rules are whacky and leave a lot of unanswered questions, but the bigger reason is its common knowledge that its a dick move to bring it. 4+ invul for a gunline that also elevates you for 75pts? Way, way too good for the cost. They mess up charges, provide awesome line of sight, and an impossible to remove invul save (only ones i know of are melee that ignore it) so vehicles gain one hell of a benefit from it, not to mention squishy guns like lootas.

None of us run it in my group, and the few times someone tries to we raise hell about it because it is seriously a dick move to bring that.

I wouldn't call it a dick move, in the end its a 4+ save. you have a 50/50 chance to fail it. More than melee ignore it, it's only enemy shooting attacks. so you can still malediction them, vector strike them, blow up a vehicle on it, just shoot the heck out of them and they will die.

its mainly the assaulting thing that's painful.

I would think dropping some broad sides on it would be a bummer day for a lot of armies. I know they can already get the 4+ but with two units of them on there it almost pays for itself and they have a better line of sight.

It's a big ugly grey stop sign in the middle of the field, that takes up so much board space it's just like, "HEY. DERP. Half the board has 4+ whatever...derpa."

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
The rules are whacky and leave a lot of unanswered questions, but the bigger reason is its common knowledge that its a dick move to bring it. 4+ invul for a gunline that also elevates you for 75pts? Way, way too good for the cost. They mess up charges, provide awesome line of sight, and an impossible to remove invul save (only ones i know of are melee that ignore it) so vehicles gain one hell of a benefit from it, not to mention squishy guns like lootas.

None of us run it in my group, and the few times someone tries to we raise hell about it because it is seriously a dick move to bring that.

You can't blame someone for bringing something that gives them an advantage in this game. It isn't like a 4+ Invuln is a game breaker. Things with 2+ Invuln die (Asdrubal Vect, Duke Sliscus, any Grey Knight with a Nemesis Warding Staff) that means things with a 4+ will die more often.

Now what is funny is an FoR in the hands of any Dark Eldar named character (aka BS 7+ on a Krakstorm Missile Launcher=never scatter off of primary target). Put said character with a Harlequin Troupe with a Shadowseer and that unit has a 2+ Cover Save.

You do realise that the Krakstorm is firing indirect, right?

The only thing that launcher has LOS to is the moon

This means that it will scatter full distance, no matter who you have manning it.

Putting said character on the laser can be fun though.



Why would the unit controlling the launcher need a cover save. The launcher is fired from the bunker, not the battlements, so they are already inside the building.

All the weapons on a FOR are Emplaced Weapons, not Weapon Emplacements (slap someone at GW for that one, as they have an in-game difference.)

PG 96 for Emplaced Weapon rules.

The controller simply has to be within 2 inches of the launcher, not inside the Bunker. That is how it works as that is how it has been run at every tournament I have been to since 6e came out.

rathkoron wrote:
The controller simply has to be within 2 inches of the launcher, not inside the Bunker. That is how it works as that is how it has been run at every tournament I have been to since 6e came out.

The adl and bastion you have to be in b2b. pg 105 gun emplacement

the Fortress, you need someone in the building p96 manual fire

show these two pages to your TO, then smack him with the book and say firmly "Bad TO!, No doughnuts!"

Skyshields are just a massive headache - there are so many rules disputes you can get in over it that it's not even worth playing against (and many people just outright refuse to play it). They're also fairly expensive $$$-wise, especially compared to the economical ADL.

I will always take a Skyshield in Appocalypse. Its a Titan's best friend

 Grey Templar wrote:
I will always take a Skyshield in Appocalypse. Its a Titan's best friend

HAH! Amazing. Wow I need to build one now.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I will always take a Skyshield in Appocalypse. Its a Titan's best friend

Could you stand a titan on one? Or would you have to get 2, one under each foot?

oh, I have it, you can model it so one foot is on the skyshield and pose the titan like Captain Morgan

Warhound titans fit perfectly on them, with room for other models still. Depending on how you posed the feet.

I'm planning on building one (as a "Daemon Summoning Circle") for my eventual Tzeentch CSM/Daemons army that's going to have a huuuuge number of deep striking models in it. I plan on deploying it into the middle of the field to drop onto... so I do have to hope I can get at least one unit down onto it before the opponent can get there and close it up.

rathkoron wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
The rules are whacky and leave a lot of unanswered questions, but the bigger reason is its common knowledge that its a dick move to bring it. 4+ invul for a gunline that also elevates you for 75pts? Way, way too good for the cost. They mess up charges, provide awesome line of sight, and an impossible to remove invul save (only ones i know of are melee that ignore it) so vehicles gain one hell of a benefit from it, not to mention squishy guns like lootas.

None of us run it in my group, and the few times someone tries to we raise hell about it because it is seriously a dick move to bring that.

You can't blame someone for bringing something that gives them an advantage in this game. It isn't like a 4+ Invuln is a game breaker. Things with 2+ Invuln die (Asdrubal Vect, Duke Sliscus, any Grey Knight with a Nemesis Warding Staff) that means things with a 4+ will die more often.

Now what is funny is an FoR in the hands of any Dark Eldar named character (aka BS 7+ on a Krakstorm Missile Launcher=never scatter off of primary target). Put said character with a Harlequin Troupe with a Shadowseer and that unit has a 2+ Cover Save.

You want a dick move, ill give you a dick move. Put Lilith to fire the fragstorm missile. Bs 9 if you can see tghe target meaning with a large blast, it will ALWAYS hit the target, but more importantly due to the way its worded ALL her attacks ingore armour saves. Shooting included, laugth as tthat fragstorrm nukes entire units of terminators and maries.

I dont see it being played mainly because its inconvienient. I go to my LGS by bus with a single case, some times too. I could not fit a skyshield in if i tryed and i can see it being a problem for others too. Its so big, so unless you own your own car and can safely store it while you drive there, it will soon become a very expensive piece of smashed plastic.

 Magc8Ball wrote:
I'm planning on building one (as a "Daemon Summoning Circle") for my eventual Tzeentch CSM/Daemons army that's going to have a huuuuge number of deep striking models in it. I plan on deploying it into the middle of the field to drop onto... so I do have to hope I can get at least one unit down onto it before the opponent can get there and close it up.

^ this idea is amazing big thumbs up!

Outside of it being big.

I can't think of any rules issues with it.

Sheild up = 4++

Shield down = no scatter on DS.

Other then that wouldn't you treat it like any other peice of terrain with levels?

No, only Ruins have levels. Everything else is what it is. Thats why the Skyshield causes issues. It can't have levels because it isn't a ruin.

Really, the simplest fix is to either make it solid sided or have no legs.

Given the way I see people thoroughly recommending lists, units and roles interpretations that I would consider dick moves, I am terrified to see something that finally gets most people to say its not cool...

It would be a pain in the ass having to take a skysheild around with you.

 Kendowned wrote:
It would be a pain in the ass having to take a skysheild around with you.

It's not that bad, I used it in a league, dragged it to the store for 6 games over 6 weeks type of thing.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
Given the way I see people thoroughly recommending lists, units and roles interpretations that I would consider dick moves, I am terrified to see something that finally gets most people to say its not cool...

It's really the assault phase that gets really weird. Especially if the skyshield is so packed you can't fit a model up there. It's almost 4" high, so without the ruin rules you can't maintain coherency with units on the top & bottom. Even if you said, eh close enough, then you get into consolidation moves which can't move people on or off from it.

Then should you say we'll call it close enough to allow models to be on top and bottom, you open up for the really big dick move
You leave one model on the shield, then string the rest of the unit off the shield and off in a conga line, while still granting the whole unit a 4++

so if we should stick to a strict 2" coherency for it, that means when you assault you have to get all of your models onto the shield, or you break coherency and fail the charge.

Then we get to cover saves, with the "walls" up it obscures 25% of the models on the shield, so what save should it get? People using it will say 3+ (it's a fortification), most will agree to 4+ (it's more like a wall and that's how they rules the top of bastions in the faq) and some will argue 5+ (because they just don't like the thing, no rules backing for it) In the case of night fighting, or any units with stealth/shroud this would be a better save.

Then there was the fun vehicle argument a while ago, yes vehicles can get onto and off from it, They can move through difficult terrain with a test, but the people wanting more realism cringe at that, claiming "how does a tank climb?"

Those are the big rules issues, I'm sure others could add on a few more.

You want a dick move, ill give you a dick move. Put Lilith to fire the fragstorm missile. Bs 9 if you can see tghe target meaning with a large blast, it will ALWAYS hit the target, but more importantly due to the way its worded ALL her attacks ingore armour saves. Shooting included, laugth as tthat fragstorrm nukes entire units of terminators and maries.

I dont see it being played mainly because its inconvienient. I go to my LGS by bus with a single case, some times too. I could not fit a skyshield in if i tryed and i can see it being a problem for others too. Its so big, so unless you own your own car and can safely store it while you drive there, it will soon become a very expensive piece of smashed plastic.

pretty sure weapons a model uses instead of his/her normal weapon has its own special features and doesnt get modified by the model. If there is a rule allowing that please let me know because i would love to utilize that with my ADL gun emplacements.

Anyway i call the denial of charging more of a dick move than the 4+ invul. Its just a 4+, most targets have that via cover anyway it just makes a big difference for vehicles is all. But as i play an assaulty army (orks) i cant get up there with bikernobz and everything else either is too slow to get there with enough numbers to bother or is crap in melee (deffkoptas can just fly up there but i despise melee koptas). The best defense against a tankline is line of sight or a better tankline, and as orks i aint gettin that better tankline and this pretty much cancels out the line of sight for the most part.

 Vineheart01 wrote:

You want a dick move, ill give you a dick move. Put Lilith to fire the fragstorm missile. Bs 9 if you can see tghe target meaning with a large blast, it will ALWAYS hit the target, but more importantly due to the way its worded ALL her attacks ingore armour saves. Shooting included, laugth as tthat fragstorrm nukes entire units of terminators and maries.

I dont see it being played mainly because its inconvienient. I go to my LGS by bus with a single case, some times too. I could not fit a skyshield in if i tryed and i can see it being a problem for others too. Its so big, so unless you own your own car and can safely store it while you drive there, it will soon become a very expensive piece of smashed plastic.

pretty sure weapons a model uses instead of his/her normal weapon has its own special features and doesnt get modified by the model. If there is a rule allowing that please let me know because i would love to utilize that with my ADL gun emplacements.

Anyway i call the denial of charging more of a dick move than the 4+ invul. Its just a 4+, most targets have that via cover anyway it just makes a big difference for vehicles is all. But as i play an assaulty army (orks) i cant get up there with bikernobz and everything else either is too slow to get there with enough numbers to bother or is crap in melee (deffkoptas can just fly up there but i despise melee koptas). The best defense against a tankline is line of sight or a better tankline, and as orks i aint gettin that better tankline and this pretty much cancels out the line of sight for the most part.

Incorrect, the Gun Emplacement and Emplaced gun rules say that all a model's special rules can effect shots made with the gun emplacement/emplaced gun.

Yes, a vindicare on a Krakstorm missile gets to allocate all the hits with no LoS allowed.

I played an IG player who brought one with his army. He had almost everything crammed up there. My Mawloc died with a very, very full belly. And First Blood. And Slay the Warlord.

 Happyjew wrote:
I played an IG player who brought one with his army. He had almost everything crammed up there. My Mawloc died with a very, very full belly. And First Blood. And Slay the Warlord.

Classy

Now is that resolved like a shooting attack granting the invuln save?

Nope, it happens if the Mawloc scatters (or is intentionally deployed) onto units when DSing.

 Happyjew wrote:
Nope, it happens if the Mawloc scatters (or is intentionally deployed) onto units when DSing.

Just to show the fun with the shield and why most people don't like it. Keep in mind the skyshield does not have battlements, it's not a building, nor a ruin strictly RAW speaking. But when trying to work out the rules it could be considered any of them that you agree to.

1, you place your marker on the table, on the skyshield is not on the table.
2. if treated like a ruin, you'd end up on the bottom floor of the shield, ie underneath as per deep strike rules.
3. As that guy is just so huge he wouldn't fit underneath, so he would just mishap anyways, unless its occupied by other models.
3a. But then what happens if a model is underneath, so he does his TFTD, Then can't fit under the shield would he then mishap?
4. If you consider the skyshiled a building, it would be considered impassible terrain for deep striking, so what happens when TFTD overrides mishaps because of models, then lands on impassible terrain anyways? I'm actually curious about this answer even without the skyshield interaction.

 Ascalam wrote:
You do realise that the Krakstorm is firing indirect, right?

The only thing that launcher has LOS to is the moon

This means that it will scatter full distance, no matter who you have manning it.

Putting said character on the laser can be fun though.



Why would the unit controlling the launcher need a cover save. The launcher is fired from the bunker, not the battlements, so they are already inside the building.

All the weapons on a FOR are Emplaced Weapons, not Weapon Emplacements (slap someone at GW for that one, as they have an in-game difference.)

PG 96 for Emplaced Weapon rules.

Just because the missiles have a barrage does not mean they can only be fired via indirect fire. If you have Los you can use bs to reduce scatter.