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 Abandon wrote:
Even in 40k, using the rules for something is not that same as doing that thing.

Using the rules for a thing means you use all of them unless stated otherwise. And being treated as having done a thing means that you're treated that way for all purposes.

A bit OT, however I know it's almost Easter. Please stop looking for Eggs already though. They're not out yet, and when they are it's only for a day, and it will not be for this...

They follow the rules for DS, they DS.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
Even in 40k, using the rules for something is not that same as doing that thing.

Aye, like the argument guys with Fast/OT transports tried back in 5th when they didn't like passengers being unable to shoot if the vehicle moved over 6''. Since it "has no specified firepoints" it's not bound by the restrictions under Firepoints. Sadly they didn't manage to come up with any text to tell them when and how they were allowed to shoot if they didn't use the parts of Firepoints that said something about it.

Same here - if you're told to place the squad using Deep Strike rules and it doesn't exempt you from the effects you can't ignore them. Necron Monolith portal also places the squad "as if Disembarking" - would you be OK with the necron player moving as normal after that since he wasn't actually disembarking, just using the rules for it? GW writes crappy rules with not-too-watertight wordings but in general they don't switch one word in order to suddenly allow you something nice, they tell you you can have something nice straight up.

Sorry for the delayed response. I was out of commission for a few days.

In this case the basic rules allow them to move, assault, etc. The burden of proof then lies on the 'you can't do that' side of things to find a rule that says as much.... and the words "as if Disembarking" mean you treat the unit as though it had disembarked. Those words do not appear here.

A unit that uses GoI uses some rules for Deep Strike, they make a Deep Strike attempt placing a model and rolling the dice, chance to fail, etc. but the unit does not actually Deep Strike (IE, come in from reserve). So for the rules "deep striking units may not move any further ... count as having moved ... cannot charge" to have any effect on them it must first be proven that they indeed did Deep Strike. I find nothing solid to support this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mannahnin wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
Even in 40k, using the rules for something is not that same as doing that thing.

Using the rules for a thing means you use all of them unless stated otherwise. And being treated as having done a thing means that you're treated that way for all purposes.

You are never told to treat them as having deep struck onto the table.

 Abandon wrote:
A unit that uses GoI uses some rules for Deep Strike, they make a Deep Strike attempt placing a model and rolling the dice, chance to fail, etc. but the unit does not actually Deep Strike (IE, come in from reserve)..

No, the unit Deep Strikes. We know this, because the GoI entry says to use the Deep Strike rules. They just don't have to be in reserve to do so.

Except that "arrives using the Deep Strike rules" does not equal 'the unit Deep Strikes'.

As I said, you can use the normal movement rules to make a normal move. You use the normal movement rules to make an assault move also but that does not make it a normal move... it's still just an assault move because you only make normal moves in the movement phase.

Likewise you only Deep Strike when coming in from reserve. You can use the rules for Deep Strike for other things but that does not make those things Deep Strikes.

They arrive using the rules for Deep Strike.

The unit does not "Deep Strikes" as the unit is not in reserve.

However if you are using the rules for deep strike you are not allowed to move or assault.

If something is using the rules for Deep Strike then they are a "deep striking unit"

 Abandon wrote:
Except that "arrives using the Deep Strike rules" does not equal 'the unit Deep Strikes'.

As I said, you can use the normal movement rules to make a normal move. You use the normal movement rules to make an assault move also but that does not make it a normal move... it's still just an assault move because you only make normal moves in the movement phase.

Likewise you only Deep Strike when coming in from reserve. You can use the rules for Deep Strike for other things but that does not make those things Deep Strikes.

So, my Librarian and a unit of Terminators always have to scatter since I can't make use of a Teleport Homer since they aren't "Deep Striking".....

Man, we've been playing this wrong for a long time now...... >.>

I'm just asking how can you call it a Deep Strike when the book does not state that it is, counts as, is treated as, etc... a Deep Strike

...And if it's not a Deep Strike how can you apply the rules restricting a Deep Striking units move, assault, etc?

Player 1: has his unit use GoI and then begins to move them.

Player 2: 'you can't do that, they did a Deep Strike'

Player 1: 'no they didn't, they used GoI'

Player 2: 'That uses the rules for Deep Strike!'

Player 1: 'So? Using the rules for it doesn't make it a Deep Strike"

Player 2: 'Those rules say you can't move further!'

Player 1: 'No, those rules say Deep Striking units can't move further... I didn't Deep Strike and as such, am not restricted by them.

So where does Player 2 point to that proves it's a Deep Strike?

where it says "arrives using the rules for Deep Strike. "

If you arrive using the rules for Deep Strike then you have to follow all of the rules for deep strike, including not moving any further, and not being able to assault.

 DeathReaper wrote:
where it says "arrives using the rules for Deep Strike. "

If you arrive using the rules for Deep Strike then you have to follow all of the rules for deep strike, including not moving any further, and not being able to assault.

His argument (from what I can tell) is that you don't follow all the rules, as the portion that restricts movement/assault applies to a Deep Striking unit (not a unit that is using the rules)-- which since they aren't coming from reserve, the Librarian and his unit are not.

Which I completely disagree. If you are using the rules for Deep Strike, you use all the rules. Not just some of them.

 NickTheButcher wrote:

So, my Librarian and a unit of Terminators always have to scatter since I can't make use of a Teleport Homer since they aren't "Deep Striking".....

Man, we've been playing this wrong for a long time now...... >.>

Actually, that is the case, but not for that reason. Teleport Homers don't work for any unit that is deep striking. They work for teleporting terminators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Abandon wrote:
Except that "arrives using the Deep Strike rules" does not equal 'the unit Deep Strikes'.

Er...yes, it really does.

The rules that define Deep Striking, define Deep Striking. Because they are the rules for Deep Striking.

 insaniak wrote:

 NickTheButcher wrote:

So, my Librarian and a unit of Terminators always have to scatter since I can't make use of a Teleport Homer since they aren't "Deep Striking".....

Man, we've been playing this wrong for a long time now...... >.>

Actually, that is the case, but not for that reason. Teleport Homers don't work for any unit that is deep striking. They work for teleporting terminators.

Sorry, I meant Locator Beacons.

Using all the rules. Rules that say 'Deep Striking units can't...(do something)' do not effect units that did not Deep Strike.

 insaniak wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
Except that "arrives using the Deep Strike rules" does not equal 'the unit Deep Strikes'.

Er...yes, it really does.

The rules that define Deep Striking, define Deep Striking. Because they are the rules for Deep Striking.

According to your logic anything that uses the rules for something is that thing.

Using the rules for Deep Strike is a Deep Strike
Using the rules for normal movement is normal movement

"All of the models in a charging unit make their charge move - up to the 2D6 distance you rolled earlier - following the same rules as in the Movement phase" pg 21 BRB

So normal moves happen in the assault phase?
Edit: Or perhaps you believe the assault phase is also the movement phase?

The Charge move (in the Assault phase) outlines the use of the rules found in the Movement phase *with exceptions listed* (exceptions are listed in the charge move ruling). Therefore, the unit is making a charge, using the rules for movement *with exceptions listed*. There is no permission given to use any fewer movement rules than you are given in the exceptions outlined in the charge movement rule.

Similarly;

A unit using GoI uses the rules for Deep Striking *with exceptions listed* (the exceptions listed are in the rule for GoI - ie: who can use the Deep Strike rules). There is no permission given to avoid the restrictions or any other portion of the Deep Strike rules provided by GoI rules, ergo, your unit follows ALL of the rules for Deep Strike.

Like it or not, you MUST follow the restrictions for Deep Strike as your unit is USING THE RULES FOR Deep Strike (with the only exceptions allowed outlined in the GoI rule)

** Furthermore, the GoI rule even mentions "if the DEEP STRIKE attempt scatters..."! does this not mean you are attempting a Deep Strike?

Rorschach9 wrote:
The Charge move (in the Assault phase) outlines the use of the rules found in the Movement phase *with exceptions listed* (exceptions are listed in the charge move ruling). Therefore, the unit is making a charge, using the rules for movement *with exceptions listed*. There is no permission given to use any fewer movement rules than you are given in the exceptions outlined in the charge movement rule.

Similarly;

A unit using GoI uses the rules for Deep Striking *with exceptions listed* (the exceptions listed are in the rule for GoI - ie: who can use the Deep Strike rules). There is no permission given to avoid the restrictions or any other portion of the Deep Strike rules provided by GoI rules, ergo, your unit follows ALL of the rules for Deep Strike.

Like it or not, you MUST follow the restrictions for Deep Strike as your unit is USING THE RULES FOR Deep Strike (with the only exceptions allowed outlined in the GoI rule)

** Furthermore, the GoI rule even mentions "if the DEEP STRIKE attempt scatters..."! does this not mean you are attempting a Deep Strike?

They arrive "using the rules for Deep Strike" so we look at the DS rules:
Reserve rules - cannot be used as the unit is not in reserve
Deep Strike attempt - place the model, roll scatter with added rules from GoI
Deep Strike Restrictions - As these rules say 'Deep Striking units cannot ... ' they can only effect units that actually Deep Strike. Anything else would be bending the rule to 'units that did something similar to a Deep Strike'. So go ahead an use them, they aren't doing anything.

Of course you make a Deep Strike Attempt, that's how you get them on the board using the Deep Strike rules. Place model, roll scatter, etc. Would you prefer they called it the 'Gate of Infinity unit placement using the Deep Strike model placement and scatter rules attempt'? A little unnecessarily wordy don't you think?

There are exceptions here as well. DS rules let you place the first model anywhere. There's an exception to this rule here that states you must place it in a limited area. DS rules for scatter are also altered for units with several models.

When the rules tell us that the unit uses the rules for Deep Strike, that means all of them unless explicitly or implicitly excepted.

Your argument is drawing a meaningless distinction to the detriment of functional play.

 Abandon wrote:

Rorschach9 wrote:
The Charge move (in the Assault phase) outlines the use of the rules found in the Movement phase *with exceptions listed* (exceptions are listed in the charge move ruling). Therefore, the unit is making a charge, using the rules for movement *with exceptions listed*. There is no permission given to use any fewer movement rules than you are given in the exceptions outlined in the charge movement rule.

Similarly;

A unit using GoI uses the rules for Deep Striking *with exceptions listed* (the exceptions listed are in the rule for GoI - ie: who can use the Deep Strike rules). There is no permission given to avoid the restrictions or any other portion of the Deep Strike rules provided by GoI rules, ergo, your unit follows ALL of the rules for Deep Strike.

Like it or not, you MUST follow the restrictions for Deep Strike as your unit is USING THE RULES FOR Deep Strike (with the only exceptions allowed outlined in the GoI rule)

** Furthermore, the GoI rule even mentions "if the DEEP STRIKE attempt scatters..."! does this not mean you are attempting a Deep Strike?

They arrive "using the rules for Deep Strike" so we look at the DS rules:
Reserve rules - cannot be used as the unit is not in reserve
Deep Strike attempt - place the model, roll scatter with added rules from GoI
Deep Strike Restrictions - As these rules say 'Deep Striking units cannot ... ' they can only effect units that actually Deep Strike. Anything else would be bending the rule to 'units that did something similar to a Deep Strike'. So go ahead an use them, they aren't doing anything.

Of course you make a Deep Strike Attempt, that's how you get them on the board using the Deep Strike rules. Place model, roll scatter, etc.[b] Would you prefer they called it the 'Gate of Infinity unit placement using the Deep Strike model placement and scatter rules attempt'? A little unnecessarily wordy don't you think?[/b]
There are exceptions here as well. DS rules let you place the first model anywhere. There's an exception to this rule here that states you must place it in a limited area. DS rules for scatter are also altered for units with several models.

Actually, had they intended you to ignore part of a deep strike rules for one specific instance (Gates of Infinity) I imagine they would have written the power to read very much in that manner. It wouldn't be too wordy, it would be defining how Gates of Infinity operated differently then all other uses of Deep Strike.

People keep telling me I'm ignoring some of the Deep Strike rules when I keep bringing them up over and over again.

"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, deep striking units may not move any further ... count as having moved ... these units cannot charge"

This is the part of 'use the Deep Strike rules you keep telling me I nee to apply... how does this apply to a unit that did not deep strike? Sure you bring the rule into effect... what does it do? Effects Deep Striking units...

It applies to a unit that did not Deep Strike if the unit is using the rules for Deep Striking. That is something that you've continually ignored.

 Abandon wrote:

"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, deep striking units may not move any further ... count as having moved ... these units cannot charge"

Easy yes/no question for you: Are the excerpts above part of the rules for deep striking?

They deep strike, you can argue until you are blue in the face, but your interpretation is wrong. You are told they use the Deep Strike rules, and are told which ones to ignore. And since it is a permissive rule set, you only have permission to ignore those rules. So it follows all the rules give under the Deep Strike USR on Page 36.


OT, I'm getting a sinking feeling that this guy is successfully managing to troll two MOD's and an Admin.

Abadon I understand your argument, and will attempt to explain where I think it goes wrong.

You are choosing to read the rules in "machine language" like a compiler seeing code, this is an insane way for a human to read a human language, but regardless lets accept it for now.

You use gate of infinity, then turn to the deep strike rules.

You follow them, with the exceptions given in gate of infinity. You get to the line that says 'Deep Striking units cannot ... ' you notice that their are no deep striking units, as your units are not deep striking, only borrowing some rules. So okay, fair enough, by your (insane) way of reading we can move on without applying this to anything.

Return to the rules for gate of infinity.

This sentence in gate of infinity "The deep striking units..." makes you crash:

Error on line... in "Gate of infinity"
"if the deep trike attempt..."
Reference made before assignment.

Their is no "deep strike attempt", you crash!

You cannot escape this, if you suppose some "common sense" at this point to get over this problem then I will insist on you going back and applying common sense earlier.

If you insist on reading the rules that way they still don't give you permission to move/assault etc after gate of infinity, they just make the game "crash".

(I suspect that if you are actually reading the rules for 40k this way you would have crashed long, long before someone got to use gate of infinity.)

 Abandon wrote:

They arrive "using the rules for Deep Strike" so we look at the DS rules:

Correct

Reserve rules - cannot be used as the unit is not in reserve

Correct. However, GoI is giving you permission to exempt the unit from these two paragraphs of the Deep Strike rule, ergo we ignore the Reserves stipulation entirely.

Deep Strike attempt - place the model, roll scatter with added rules from GoI
Deep Strike Restrictions - As these rules say 'Deep Striking units cannot ... ' they can only effect units that actually Deep Strike. Anything else would be bending the rule to 'units that did something similar to a Deep Strike'. So go ahead an use them, they aren't doing anything.

As we are told the units are using the deep strike rules (and therefore are told to ignore the stipulation that they must be in reserve) the units are Deep Striking units at this point with the 24" from initial point restriction added. The rule does not say "Deep striking units that arrived from reserves cannot..." does it? No. It doesn't.

Of course you make a Deep Strike Attempt, that's how you get them on the board using the Deep Strike rules. Place model, roll scatter, etc.

So we are Deep striking then? If you're using a Deep Strike attempt and you are using the Deep Strike rules, you MUST be using a unit that is Deep Striking.

There are exceptions here as well. DS rules let you place the first model anywhere. There's an exception to this rule here that states you must place it in a limited area. DS rules for scatter are also altered for units with several models.

Correct. That is the same with any rule. A rule is to be followed unless given explicit permission to change the rule. GoI gives you explicit permission to Deep Strike without being in reserves and limits you to a 24" radius. All other DS rules apply.

Dast wrote:
Abadon I understand your argument, and will attempt to explain where I think it goes wrong.

You are choosing to read the rules in "machine language" like a compiler seeing code, this is an insane way for a human to read a human language, but regardless lets accept it for now.

You use gate of infinity, then turn to the deep strike rules.

You follow them, with the exceptions given in gate of infinity. You get to the line that says 'Deep Striking units cannot ... ' you notice that their are no deep striking units, as your units are not deep striking, only borrowing some rules. So okay, fair enough, by your (insane) way of reading we can move on without applying this to anything.

Return to the rules for gate of infinity.

This sentence in gate of infinity "The deep striking units..." makes you crash:

Error on line... in "Gate of infinity"
"if the deep trike attempt..."
Reference made before assignment.

Their is no "deep strike attempt", you crash!

You cannot escape this, if you suppose some "common sense" at this point to get over this problem then I will insist on you going back and applying common sense earlier.

If you insist on reading the rules that way they still don't give you permission to move/assault etc after gate of infinity, they just make the game "crash".

(I suspect that if you are actually reading the rules for 40k this way you would have crashed long, long before someone got to use gate of infinity.)

Thank you, I take much of this as a complement and acknowledgment of logical processing of input. There is no 'crash' however, the text only references something it has already told you to do as it is required to make a Deep Strike attempt while the using the DS rules.

Abandon, sorry to say bud, but you're not correct.

No tournament organizer anywhere would agree with your long-drawn out reasoning. It's best to leave it as is.

When you use Gate of Infinity, you follow the rules for Deep Strike, which explicitly state no further moving or assaulting.

Things you can do after using Gate of Infinity
1) Shoot
2) Run

I hope that's cleared that up for you and your future opponents. For their sake, I hope you don't try and abuse Gate of Infinity in your future games, as that won't be fun for anyone.

I know if someone tried to pull this on me, I'd simply pick up my models and walk away.

If it was a tournament situation, I'd gladly call over a TO and have this resolved in my favour (999/1000 times it would be, and if it wasn't, I'd be comfortable leaving the tournament)

 Abandon wrote:
the text only references something it has already told you to do as it is required to make a Deep Strike attempt while the using the DS rules.

If I attempt to eat a biscuit, and am successful, what did I just do?

Ghaz wrote:It applies to a unit that did not Deep Strike if the unit is using the rules for Deep Striking. That is something that you've continually ignored.

I acknowledge this statement but believe it to be a logical fallacy.

insaniak wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, deep striking units may not move any further ... count as having moved ... these units cannot charge"

Easy yes/no question for you: Are the excerpts above part of the rules for deep striking?

Yes. Any unit that Deep Strikes is effected by this.

Eldercaveman wrote:They deep strike, you can argue until you are blue in the face, but your interpretation is wrong. You are told they use the Deep Strike rules, and are told which ones to ignore. And since it is a permissive rule set, you only have permission to ignore those rules. So it follows all the rules give under the Deep Strike USR on Page 36.


OT, I'm getting a sinking feeling that this guy is successfully managing to troll two MOD's and an Admin.

I am using all the possible Deep Strike rules given the wording of the text.

Rorschach9 wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

They arrive "using the rules for Deep Strike" so we look at the DS rules:

Correct

Reserve rules - cannot be used as the unit is not in reserve

Correct. However, GoI is giving you permission to exempt the unit from these two paragraphs of the Deep Strike rule, ergo we ignore the Reserves stipulation entirely.

Actually GoI does not give this permission but it is required to allow the system to function.

Rorschach9 wrote:

Deep Strike attempt - place the model, roll scatter with added rules from GoI
Deep Strike Restrictions - As these rules say 'Deep Striking units cannot ... ' they can only effect units that actually Deep Strike. Anything else would be bending the rule to 'units that did something similar to a Deep Strike'. So go ahead an use them, they aren't doing anything.

As we are told the units are using the deep strike rules (and therefore are told to ignore the stipulation that they must be in reserve) the units are Deep Striking units at this point with the 24" from initial point restriction added. The rule does not say "Deep striking units that arrived from reserves cannot..." does it? No. It doesn't.

Put in bold the part that is incorrect. Using the Deep Strike Rules does not make it any more of a Deep Strike that using the movement rules makes it the movement phase.

Of course you make a Deep Strike Attempt, that's how you get them on the board using the Deep Strike rules. Place model, roll scatter, etc.

So we are Deep striking then? If you're using a Deep Strike attempt and you are using the Deep Strike rules, you MUST be using a unit that is Deep Striking.

The attempt is in the Deep Strike rules you have been told to use. No-where does it state that only deep striking units can use the Deep Strike rules.

There are exceptions here as well. DS rules let you place the first model anywhere. There's an exception to this rule here that states you must place it in a limited area. DS rules for scatter are also altered for units with several models.

Correct. That is the same with any rule. A rule is to be followed unless given explicit permission to change the rule. GoI gives you explicit permission to Deep Strike without being in reserves and limits you to a 24" radius. All other DS rules apply.

Correct. So why are you allowing the rule "Deep Striking units may not move any further..." to effect units that are only 'using the rules for deep strike'?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And no, I'm not trolling anyone. I believe I have a very different way of thinking about things than most here and I am simply arguing what I see as a valid perspective.

 Abandon wrote:

insaniak wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, deep striking units may not move any further ... count as having moved ... these units cannot charge"

Easy yes/no question for you: Are the excerpts above part of the rules for deep striking?

Yes. Any unit that Deep Strikes is effected by this.

So they are a part of the rules for Deep Striking. So if a unit is told to do something using the rules for Deep Striking, why would you assume you can ignore that part?

Correct. So why are you allowing the rule "Deep Striking units may not move any further..." to effect units that are only 'using the rules for deep strike'?

Because 'Deep Striking units may not move any further...' is one of the rules for deep strike...


And again:

 insaniak wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
the text only references something it has already told you to do as it is required to make a Deep Strike attempt while the using the DS rules.

If I attempt to eat a biscuit, and am successful, what did I just do?

Mods, it's probably time to lock this thread. Abandon is wrong and will never see or understand that he is wrong, and will thusly continue arguing that he's right, even given the evidence that he's wrong.

(dude, btw, you're wrong)

A lock seems appropriate.

 insaniak wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

insaniak wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, deep striking units may not move any further ... count as having moved ... these units cannot charge"

Easy yes/no question for you: Are the excerpts above part of the rules for deep striking?

Yes. Any unit that Deep Strikes is effected by this.

So they are a part of the rules for Deep Striking. So if a unit is told to do something using the rules for Deep Striking, why would you assume you can ignore that part?

Why would you assume a unit using the rules for deep striking is actually deep striking?

Correct. So why are you allowing the rule "Deep Striking units may not move any further..." to effect units that are only 'using the rules for deep strike'?

Because 'Deep Striking units may not move any further...' is one of the rules for deep strike...


And again:

 insaniak wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
the text only references something it has already told you to do as it is required to make a Deep Strike attempt while the using the DS rules.

If I attempt to eat a biscuit, and am successful, what did I just do?

If I eat a cookie using the rules for eating biscuits I've still only eaten a cookie. Any rule stating people eating biscuits can't run for a half hour would not effect me because that's not what I did.
Edit: Forgot to add: If the rules for eating biscuits include a biscuit eating attempt does that mean I ate a biscuit? No. I ate a cookie.