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So, I have nowhere near the models to field this, but the thought just crossed my mind.

Lord commissar - plasma pistol, power fist

Vets - Gunslinger plasma pistol sergeant, 3x meltaguns, chimera
Vets - Gunslinger plasma pistol sergeant, 3x meltaguns, chimera
Vets - Gunslinger plasma pistol sergeant, 3x meltaguns, chimera
Vets - Gunslinger plasma pistol sergeant, 3x meltaguns, chimera
Vets - Harker, 3x meltaguns, chimera

Hellhound - multimelta
Devil Dog - multimelta

Hellhound - multimelta
Devil Dog - multimelta

Hellhound - multimelta
Devil Dog - multimelta


For 1850 points.

Basically, the whole point would be that everything would spend the first two turns moving forward 12". Then, anything that survived the highland charge would be in melta range for the multimeltas and at least in range for all those melta guns. Perhaps the chimeras have heavy flamers, which, in addition to the hellhounds handle hordes, and the sheer quantity of melta handles fliers.

Now, one could drop that harker squad and do other interesting things, like throw in a pair of basilisks, or a pair of devil dogs (one with multimelta), or 5 hydras, or something. In any case, the AV12 saturation is certainly there...

That army sounds so fun and If I had the models I would try it! Nice thing is that the army will be moving up into the opponents face and their fliers will be screwed and will probably be useless. only thing I see that would need to be done is to make sure you place your objectives in your opponents deployment so you dont have to keep units back. But it actually seems like a very fun list to play. A nice fast recon force as it looks.

what is you're tactic to bring down flyers?

 imperial commander wrote:
what is you're tactic to bring down flyers?

I assume his mobility? In my opinion, just switch out 2 chimeras for vendettas. Also I'd mix some of those weapons, I'm a fan of the melts, but plasmas and flamers serve purposes.

You wont need to worry about fliers if your already in your opponents deployment. With that many vehicles in the deployment turn two your opponents fliers will be mostlikely forced to fly over wasting a turn of shooting and if they are lucky then maybe the following turn they will be able to turn enough to get a good shot which is unlikely and will result in flying off the table which will end up repeating and your opponents fliers will be fores to go into hover mode and with that much melt in their face will also result in their own doom. I wouldnt even worry about fliers with this list.

Flyers can come in at angles much of the time to still strike targets in their deployment zone.

 pretre wrote:
Flyers can come in at angles much of the time to still strike targets in their deployment zone.

Also some of those transports will be knocked out so there will be vet squads somewhere on the board on foot. Hence why you should consider adding 2+ vendettas of your own.

As a side note... I hate fliers.

with 11 transports rushing forward I dont believe there will be much in the back field for flier to shoot at if they are lucky enough to come on turn 2. Even though the flier can come in at an angle to hit targets in its deployment it still has to move a minimum of 18 inches, might be hard to do with close to 11 vehicles on your opponents side of the table.

Yeah, I'm not worried about fliers in the slightest. With a chimera at full-tilt, the meltaguns get a 24" threat range, and they're snap-firing already anyways. Plus, even if those big, bad enemy vendettas do show up and blow up my chimeras, they're doing so with my forces already inside their deployment zone.

In a way, this really doubles down on my usual anti-flier strategy - namely, winning the ground game and ignoring the fliers. The only way a flier-based list is safe is if the stuff they start on the field has a few turns of being relatively unmolested while they wait for their air support to arrive. That's a luxury they're not getting against this kind of list. The risk you take by weakening your ground game by taking fliers is just too great.

Anyways, I've also come up with a 1,000 point version of this list:

CCS - plasma pistol, power fist, 3x plasma guns, melta gun
- chimera

Marbo

Vets - 2x plasma pistols, 3x meltaguns
- chimera
Vets - 2x plasma pistols, 3x meltaguns
- chimera

Hellhound - multimelta
Devil Dog - multimelta
Devil Dog - multimelta

And have another version that keeps three mechvet squads, drops the CCS to a lord commissar like before, and loses marbo. But gains the extra scoring unit.

 Ailaros wrote:
In a way, this really doubles down on my usual anti-flier strategy - namely, winning the ground game and ignoring the fliers.

Except in this case you don't have the troops to do it. Unlike your usual infantry swarms veterans are not durable enough to just sit there and take round after round of fire from your opponent's aircraft, you're going to end up with a situation where your troops are all dead and your opponent's flyers drop off their scoring units at the end of the game with no time left for your survivors to do anything about it.

The only way a flier-based list is safe is if the stuff they start on the field has a few turns of being relatively unmolested while they wait for their air support to arrive. That's a luxury they're not getting against this kind of list. The risk you take by weakening your ground game by taking fliers is just too great.

Where are you getting "a few turns" from? Reserves are on a 3+ starting on the second turn, and if you have multiple flyers you're almost guaranteed to have at least one on the table immediately and you'll probably have more.

Marbo

Never thought I'd see the day...

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, I'm not worried about fliers in the slightest. With a chimera at full-tilt, the meltaguns get a 24" threat range, and they're snap-firing already anyways. Plus, even if those big, bad enemy vendettas do show up and blow up my chimeras, they're doing so with my forces already inside their deployment zone.

In a way, this really doubles down on my usual anti-flier strategy - namely, winning the ground game and ignoring the fliers. The only way a flier-based list is safe is if the stuff they start on the field has a few turns of being relatively unmolested while they wait for their air support to arrive. That's a luxury they're not getting against this kind of list. The risk you take by weakening your ground game by taking fliers is just too great.

Anyways, I've also come up with a 1,000 point version of this list:

CCS - plasma pistol, power fist, 3x plasma guns, melta gun
- chimera

Marbo

Vets - 2x plasma pistols, 3x meltaguns
- chimera
Vets - 2x plasma pistols, 3x meltaguns
- chimera

Hellhound - multimelta
Devil Dog - multimelta
Devil Dog - multimelta

And have another version that keeps three mechvet squads, drops the CCS to a lord commissar like before, and loses marbo. But gains the extra scoring unit.

I want to say that anything with a decent amount of ranged anti tank won't have a problem with this. Particularly sitting back in cover. Using guard as a quick example. 1000 points

Aegis
50

CCS, 2xplasma
80

Infantry Platoon - 305

platoon command squad
3x flamer/grenade launcher

infantry squad, plasma, lascannon
85

infantry squad, plasma, lascannon
85

infantry squad, plasma, lascannon
85

Infantry Platoon - 305

platoon command squad
3x flamer/grenade launcher

infantry squad, plasma, lascannon
85

infantry squad, plasma, lascannon
85

infantry squad, plasma, lascannon
85

Medusa
135

Medusa
135

Three lascannon hits and a medusa hit? That's good for a destroyed and a damaged vehicle in the best case scenario. If I have cover, it wouldn't be so bad.

Or I could go first. In this case, everything would spend turn 1 moving forward 18". On turn 2, the roughly 4 vehicles that survive would proceed to wipe off both medusas and two or three sqauds of infantry with heavy flamers and meltaguns of various sorts. The rest of the game would be the slow death of everything on both sides.

However, the game would end with me having stuff in his deployment zone on his obejctives - whatever he managed to keep alive from my assault - rather than the other way around. I'd still be in a pretty decent strategic position.

Moreover, I'd like to see a mech list that would do well straight away against what you've got set up. I'm pretty sure that a russ+chimera list would do worse.

 Ailaros wrote:
Three lascannon hits and a medusa hit? That's good for a destroyed and a damaged vehicle in the best case scenario.

I'm not sure you understand the concept of "best case scenario". The best case scenario is where everything hits and wrecks a vehicle, not where your opponent rolls about average.

On turn 2, the roughly 4 vehicles that survive would proceed to wipe off both medusas and two or three sqauds of infantry with heavy flamers and meltaguns of various sorts.

Why are you just declaring that four vehicles magically wipe out the Medusas (which aren't in melta range) while simultaneously wiping out 2-3 squads of infantry? Do the math on this, your average firepower is falling well short of that, especially if the vehicles are behind the aegis line.

However, the game would end with me having stuff in his deployment zone on his obejctives - whatever he managed to keep alive from my assault - rather than the other way around. I'd still be in a pretty decent strategic position.

You're in an awful strategic position. Your troops are probably dead (since you had to bring all of them up close where they can get shot at) so you can't claim linebreaker or objectives. Your only hope is that you somehow manage to kill the entire horde of infantry with your survivors and didn't lose first blood.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:
Moreover, I'd like to see a mech list that would do well straight away against what you've got set up. I'm pretty sure that a russ+chimera list would do worse.

CCS, 4x melta, Chimera

Vets, 3x melta, Chimera
Vets, 3x melta, Chimera
Vets, 3x melta (in the Vendetta)

Vendetta

Griffon
Griffon
Manticore

Problem solved. Ranged anti-horde that can hide in cover (or even out of LOS) and snipe lascannons out of the squads, and a Vendetta squad to fly in and claim an objective late in the game. The only thing you lose is a bit of target saturation at close range, but it's not like that really matters when the primary anti-tank threat you're facing has 48" range.

You're talking about best case luck, not best case scenarios, and your list wouldn't do appreciably better. The lascannons and medusas neutralize your vehicles just as quickly. You're talking about a mid-game with a pair of half-dead vet squads in your deployment zone and hoping that a half-injured guard gunline can't pick your one flier out of the sky.

Plus, I don't go in for the thesis that the only way to beat a guard artillery gunline is with a bigger artillery gunline.

 Ailaros wrote:
You're talking about best case luck, not best case scenarios

Err, what? The two are the same thing: the best case scenario is where you have the best luck. You can't call something the "best case scenario" if your opponent just rolls average results, especially since you use this supposed "best case scenario" as "proof" that your list will always survive to get into range.

The lascannons and medusas neutralize your vehicles just as quickly.

No they don't, because I have the option to hold them back in cover (and even out of LOS for the artillery). Meanwhile I'm killing the lascannons and Medusas a lot faster (since I get to shoot them starting on the first turn) and quickly reducing the amount of incoming fire I have to take.

You're talking about a mid-game with a pair of half-dead vet squads in your deployment zone and hoping that a half-injured guard gunline can't pick your one flier out of the sky.

So how is it that these lascannons are magically shooting at both my tanks and my Vendetta?

Also, a pair of half-dead vet squads is better than a pair of full-dead vet squads like you're going to have. And they're going to be in my opponent's deployment zone, just like yours. I can still do the same Chimera rush, the only difference is that my supporting units get to fire immediately instead of having to spend 1-2 turns getting into range first.

Plus, I don't go in for the thesis that the only way to beat a guard artillery gunline is with a bigger artillery gunline.

It isn't. You can use Vultures and Avengers to clear infantry while Vendettas and vets take care of the tanks. However, if you refuse to play with Vendettas and FW units you're stuck with the artillery gunline.

SNAAAAAAAAAAAP. I have to agree with peregrine... I STILL LOVE YOU ALIAROS! (for your batreps)

Peregrine wrote:

The lascannons and medusas neutralize your vehicles just as quickly.

No they don't, because I have the option to hold them back in cover

So, I have to take cover into consideration?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
So, you're going to just dismiss cover saves?

Of course you dismiss cover. Unless you're talking about one of the few cover-ignoring units* cover saves just aren't relevant.

Oh, nevermind, I should just dismiss cover saves. If I'm dismissing cover saves, then 6 vehicles die just as quickly wherever.

And if you can't figure out how melta guns firing at stuff in melta range starting turn 2, and what heavy flamers (including torrent inferno cannons) can do to an opponent's gunline, then you lack the creativity to be all that useful to this discussion.

 Ailaros wrote:
Oh, nevermind, I should just dismiss cover saves. If I'm dismissing cover saves, then 6 vehicles die just as quickly wherever.

Wow. That is just unbelievably dishonest. Did you really think that you could get away with that?

For everyone besides Ailaros (who knows perfectly well what he just did), what he did is dig up an out of context quote where I'm talking about two units firing at the same target (specifically against heavy infantry where all of the units being compared have AP2/3 weapons) and act like it's a general statement that you ignore cover even when you're talking about two different targets that have different levels of ability to make use of cover.

And if you can't figure out how melta guns firing at stuff in melta range starting turn 2

Hint: when you have 48" range weapons against an all-melta list you don't deploy at the front of your deployment zone. You have at least 30" to cover, and the fire point on a Chimera is at the back of the model.

and what heavy flamers (including torrent inferno cannons) can do to an opponent's gunline, then you lack the creativity to be all that useful to this discussion.

Oh, I see. So when the debate is over ML/HF vs. ML/HB for Chimeras you'll explain in great detail how Chimera HFs have fatal problems getting into range, and even more problems getting a decent number of hits when they do, but when it's your list with HFs we're talking about suddenly HFs become awesome infantry killers?

As for the Hellhounds, yes, they hurt gunlines. But you only have one of them, and it's going to be a priority target.

I would also suggest that, given the gunline list I posted, those medusa could easily be given bastion breachers or substituted for colossi at the cost of 1 grenade launcher per PCS (peanuts), which may increase efficiency a considerable bit.

Still, it does lack some anti flyer, but has at least 1 turns grace in that regard, and 1 vendetta isn't as threatening as it seems so the fight would definitely be a meat grinder which could go either way depending on rolls.

I really believe that AV12 spam just doesn't cut it against a slew of long or even mid ranged high strength ap 1-2 weapons, which seem to be the best tool for the job these days anyway.

Railguns, lances are a couple of other examples. Raiders would laugh. Marines with lascannons and a pod or two, even. Just throwing examples out there which could give any of these lists grief.

Genuinely I think the only weakness of a foot/arty gunline is its mobility in capturing objectives, hypothetically you could shoot the opponent off the board and still win by points given an equal or respective number of objectives..

edit: don't forget any portion of your artillery or gunline you stick underneath a multi-levelled peace of terrain (say, ruins) will greatly increase its survivability vs opposing ordnance.

Well, but that's sort of what I'm talking about. A railgun or some deepstriking melta will kill a land raider only a little worse than it will a chimera-chassised vehicle, except you get TWO of them for the same price.

Going through things, the alternative to a light armor spam list is something that looks more like...

Lord commissar - plasma pistol, power fist

Vets - 3x melta, chimera
Vets - plasma pistol, 3x melta, chimera

Vanquisher - lascannon, multimeltas
Exterminator - lascannon, multimeltas
Exterminator - lascannon, multimeltas

... and at first, it looks a lot better, being only one fewer vehicles down, but gaining AV14, and a bunch of lascannons.

But firstly, how are you going to get across the table with this list? If the chimeras run out in front, they're just going to get butchered at short range with no saturating targets. If you hide them behind the russes, they still only get a 5+ cover save and, much more importantly, they're only getting to move 6" per turn. The length of exposure is HUGE, as you have to spend basically 4 or 5 turns out in the open before you finally get to make it somewhere where you can shoot with the vets, or get out and take an objective.

Then, as mentioned, russes are good, but not invincible. Once all of your lascannons and medusas make swiss cheese out of the chimeras, then its going to be three russes against an entire army. At 6" per turn.

Really, all you're going to be able to do really well is hide, but then you're talking about a gunline v. gunline, which someone packing chimeras and russes isn't going to win nearly as easily as a person with infantry platoons and artillery.

But let's take it more abstract for a moment. Basically, there are three ways to beat a gunline, right? The first is to bring a bigger, better gunline, which I'm not interested in. The second is to bring a ludicrously durable army that can survive a gunline. Russes could do this, but I'm not sure it's actually better. The third way to beat a gunline is with speed, whether it's sternguard dropping out of a pod, or nob bikers, or whatever. The guard solution to this problem is... well... this list.

They can either run forward on the first turn and wipe up some infantry with a hellhound and then throw multimeltas at stuff, or they can move flat out turn one and for the rest of the game, everything in the gunline is in melta and heavy flamer range. There's nothing safe anymore.

If those are the only three serious options, then I'd rather go with the third. I could see lightening up things a bit by ditching plasma pistols and dropping plasma guns to meltas and getting rid of marbo, but it seems like it's almost down to preference by that point (perhaps). The core of "drive up and shoot them with too much AV12" is what runs it, and I can't think of much of a better basic way to do a chimera highland charge than something roughly akin to this.

So I guess you'll just ignore my previous post and pretend you never said any of that?

 Ailaros wrote:
Well, but that's sort of what I'm talking about. A railgun or some deepstriking melta will kill a land raider only a little worse than it will a chimera-chassised vehicle, except you get TWO of them for the same price

Since when is "twice as often" the same as "only a little worse"? A railgun against AV 14 has a 2/6 chance to penetrate, while a railgun against AV 12 has a 4/6 chance to penetrate (the other rolls are all the same).

If the chimeras run out in front, they're just going to get butchered at short range with no saturating targets.

What does target saturation at short range have to do with anything? The shortest-ranged weapon in the list you're talking about has 36" range, so it doesn't matter if the other vehicles in your list are 12" away or 30" away. Turning your Leman Russes into Hellhounds and rushing them up as fast as possible doesn't protect the Chimeras at all.

The guard solution to this problem is... well... this list.

No, the guard "speed" solution involves flyers. Your solution is the one for people who play with self-imposed limits like "I don't use Vendettas".

 Peregrine wrote:

No, the guard "speed" solution involves flyers. Your solution is the one for people who play with self-imposed limits like "I don't use Vendettas".

So.../thread? It's the solution for people who don't want to use vendettas. I'm sure he isn't the only one.

It's a very "Tribes Ascend" list. You want everything moving very fast to jam up the enemy's deployment. You have a feth ton of AV12 chassis for armor saturation. Seems like it'd be a good/fun list. Only thing that would generally be a faster guard army would be an Elysian Air Cav list/ 3 X Vendetta Squadron list. And we already know you don't use those.

I really feel like you'd have a fun time playing orks. Trukk/Battlewagon spam seems like it'd be right up your alley if you like fast moving lists like the above but would rather avoid fliers.