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 Ailaros wrote:
Except fliers. And monstrous creatures. And hordes, really. And anything with a serious invulnerable or cover save...

And the problem with advancing behind them is that you're stuck moving only 6" per turn with your chimeras.

Meanwhile, the problem with covering chimeras with something like the punisher is that you have to kill stuff BEFORE it kills your chimeras. Punishers are great, but timeliness is actually important here, which their short range rather lacks.

You could use a devil dog as a sacrificial lamb, so to speak. Just flat out with it and the chimera and that's three extra hull points for you. Plus, if it survives, it can do some damage.

 Ailaros wrote:
Except fliers. And monstrous creatures. And hordes, really. And anything with a serious invulnerable or cover save...

Flyers, yes. The others; disagree.

Str10AP2 against MC's is pretty darn good, I'd say.

The Large blast against hordes means that, against a horde, even a miss is usually a hit.

Things with Serious Invulnerable saves are usually either multi-wound IC's, or stuff with Stormshields. Even with that invuln, you're still dishing out AP2 and Instant death.

Cover saves; eh. Everything has cover from stuff these days. Unless you're running an Eradicator/Colossi.

Best way to protect your Armor is though Saturation and each Chimera being able to give the other ones Covering Fire from potential chargeing units -- We are the Imperial Guard , the Hammer of the imperiurm , Everything is expendable if your opponent destroys 3 chimeras ,make sure theres at least another 4 in his face giveing him hell

All my ig armor is shelved do to the hull point system .as i view all armor useless now

frogy27 wrote:
All my ig armor is shelved do to the hull point system .as i view all armor useless now

Good luck playing foot guard...

TheCaptain wrote:Str10AP2 against MC's is pretty darn good, I'd say.

Woo hoo, you cause UP TO one wound per turn... per time you hit and wound...

TheCaptain wrote:The Large blast against hordes means that, against a horde, even a miss is usually a hit.

Woo hoo, you kill a couple of guardsmen or ork boys...

TheCaptain wrote:Things with Serious Invulnerable saves are usually either multi-wound IC's, or stuff with Stormshields. Even with that invuln, you're still dishing out AP2 and Instant death.

Against everything but paladins, this doesn't really matter.

And against proper dispersal of units with an invul save, killing a couple of models before they kill the demolisher isn't much of a consolation prize.

TheCaptain wrote:Cover saves; eh. Everything has cover from stuff these days. Unless you're running an Eradicator/Colossi.

So, you're going to just dismiss cover saves?

Hmm...

 Ailaros wrote:
So, you're going to just dismiss cover saves?

Of course you dismiss cover. Unless you're talking about one of the few cover-ignoring units* cover saves just aren't relevant. If there's cover every unit you're comparing** loses the same 33% of their firepower so their relative effectiveness is the same whether or not the target has a cover save. If your goal is to "prove" that LR Demolishers are bad then sure, take that 33% away and reduce the numbers, but if your goal is to rank units based on how well they kill MCs/death stars/vehicles/etc then you might as well save a step in the math and ignore cover.

*None of which are good at killing the things LR Demolishers are best at killing.

**In theory, not if you're already allowing an armor save, but anything that can kill MCs/death stars/etc effectively is ignoring armor saves.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
So, you're going to just dismiss cover saves?

Of course you dismiss cover. Unless you're talking about one of the few cover-ignoring units* cover saves just aren't relevant. If there's cover every unit you're comparing** loses the same 33% of their firepower so their relative effectiveness is the same whether or not the target has a cover save.

Nonsense. Cover makes a big difference for a Demolisher. Here's an example:

Demolisher Cannon against MEQ: Cover takes away 33% or 50% of effectiveness
Exterminator Cannon against MEQ: Cover takes nothing away from effectiveness

So the Demolisher is hurt by the general availability of cover saves. Many other weapons don't care about cover, and that's not only the cover-ignoring guns.

Aleinikov wrote:
Exterminator Cannon against MEQ: Cover takes nothing away from effectiveness.

So what? It's terrible at killing marines anyway (average of 0.833 dead MEQs per turn) so it's not even part of this discussion. Like I said in the quoted post, the cover vs. armor save issue is irrelevant when every unit you're comparing ignores armor saves.

I say the best way to protect Chimeras is to go all mech.

At 2000 points I'm currently running 7 Chimeras, 2 Leman Russ Battle Tanks, 1 Manticore & 2 Vendettas. Inside the Chimeras are 6 packs of plasma veterans and a CCS with 4 plasma guns (and an astropath).

Thats a big old wall of AV12 saturation + a hell of a lot of Plasma Guns. This list seems to eat Marine lists for breakfast.

On a side note, running 22 plasma guns on guardsmen, I average quite a few "gets hot" deaths per game, but I think it's pretty funny that way. They still get the job done. Last game I lost 8 or 9 vets to their own plasma guns!!! (still a win)

I only have a single chimera, and I rarely use it.

But when I do, I hide it behind cover.

 Ailaros wrote:
Except fliers. And monstrous creatures. And hordes, really. And anything with a serious invulnerable or cover save...

And the problem with advancing behind them is that you're stuck moving only 6" per turn with your chimeras.

Meanwhile, the problem with covering chimeras with something like the punisher is that you have to kill stuff BEFORE it kills your chimeras. Punishers are great, but timeliness is actually important here, which their short range rather lacks.

Well, I mainly fight CSM DP so the Demolisher blasts T5 quite well. Hordes are dealt with by the fact I usually run 3+ Demolishers, but also with support from other guard units (because nobody runs just Demolishers and Chimeras). I guess TH/SS termies and fliers are the only bane to my tactic, but again I have volume fire from supporting units and maneuvering to avoid CC. And Vendettas for the fliers. But honestly, there are no Russ variants that cover ALL bases. The closest I would say would be bolter boat exterminator, but it doesn't excel in enough areas.

But anyways, would you suggest a different variant that would be better at rolling forward at shooting stuff? The 6" limitation only really applies for the first few turns I find.

I haven't been playing long, but I think Chimeras a bit "all or nothing".

If you run 1 chimera up the field - dead. If it's the only real threat in LOS, totally dead.

If you run 2 chimera, that's already a significant increase in effectiveness ... and so on.

Still, it's going to take 5+ chimeras, I'd say, to make it a solid investment. If it's not true Chimera Spam, you're gonna have a bad time. At least, I've had a bad time running them (I only have 3, which I don't think is enough).

Like I said, all or nothing. Chimera wall? Unstoppable. 1 or 2 Chimeras? You're toast. I get SO many explode results from melta and power klaw attacks, I'm usually left with 3-5 terrified guardsmen in a crater.

That's just my experience with them. I've been loving the Vendettas to get my troops where they need to be. I don't find that I need a horde of super elite dudes to take an objective, if I'm pulverizing the enemy from across the table with Lemans and artillery.

There is an ART to transports, I've found. I've seen dudes pull off the wackiest moves with Rhinos! If you really know how to find LOS blocking cover, and make use of your 18" move, you might be able to sneak a single Chimera right where you need it. I would never condone the use of a single chimera (as stated above, all or nothing), but if you think you're a ninja, it's worth exploring how to sneak around and drive your opponent nuts.