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I've never been able to understand why none of the Space Marine chapters equip their Devastators with autocannons. They are a fine weapons choice, and the Imperium makes abundant use of them in other areas (IG, SM Tanks, Dreadnaughts, etc).

I would like to propose that they be added to the wargear list of all SM codices for use in both Tactical and Devastator squads. (not that I think GW will do it).

How would you react to a player using autocannons in their SM lists in a friendly game? Thoughts?

They don't use them because they have other weapons at their disposal. Autocannons are vehicle mounted weapons.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
They don't use them because they have other weapons at their disposal. Autocannons are vehicle mounted weapons.

Uhm... unless things have really changed in hurry than every army has other weapons at their disposal. And while the autocannon is a vehicle mounted weapon that doesn't stop a Space Marine from slinging it over (or under) his shoulder. CSM use them, and a team of two IG can use them... yes both armies use them on vehicles as well, but that is hardly a reason for the lack of uniformity.

Why do Space Marines have to be like Chaos Marines? or Imperial Guard? Can't they have options unique to their lists?

I dont find "unique" to be taking stuff away/not allowing it.... unless you REALLY want to make them unique and take away tact marines

Then I want Land Eaider Crusaders for my Chaos Marines. Nothing says Blood for the Blood God more than hurricane bolters and assault cannons tearing away at my enemies.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Then I want Land Eaider Crusaders for my Chaos Marines. Nothing says Blood for the Blood God more than hurricane bolters and assault cannons tearing away at my enemies.

And this is the line.

CSM can't have those, because they have plenty of unique things already on top of the fluff reasoning (that stuff came into Imperial hands after the traitor legions broke apart). Auto-canons aren't like that, an auto-cannon is a widely used and known Imperial weapon. Land Raiders are in short supply, Auto-cannons are not

However, I don't see what's stopping Autocannons from being carried by Devastators. Assault Cannons don't really overrule that, since AC can only be found on Land Raiders and Terminators. An Autocannon is an effective weapon, I think Space Marines would figure that out if their traitor counterparts did. I can see it more for balance though. A team of 5 auto-cannons might do some good damage (10 Str7 AP4 shots would kill anything that isn't MEQ or TEQ, along with doing some jabs at MC's/light armor).

However, no matter how effective it would seem, no self-respecting Space Marine would adopt a new weapon because it was used by the tainted forces of Chaos.

The tradeoff was that Devastators got Plasma Cannons while Havocs got Autocannons.

Autocannons didn't use to be so useful, nobody cared in 3rd/4th edition that they couldn't get Autocannons in SM armies, the Missile Launcher was generally considered to be superior as the penetration table was more punitive and the AP3 mattered more and being able to hurt AV13 more reliably on the damage table also mattered.

Another case of why don't my dudes have everything, I mean couldn't chaos salvage/steal a landraider crusader? I mean the dex is meant to encompass both chaos and renegades, surely renegades have this equipment? Nothing in the fluff dictates that chaos forgot how to drive the crusader pattern landraider.

By your logic why don't Eldar warwalkers all carry pulse lasers, we have the technology, and we mount them on vehicles, why doesn't the IG have heavy weapon teams using a demolisher cannon? They posses the equipment and know how.

Balance > Fluff

Because all the rest of us players need to see 12 autocannons hiding behind an adl with 3 thundercannons, with a darkshroud hugging it

 Arthas367 wrote:
Another case of why don't my dudes have everything, I mean couldn't chaos salvage/steal a landraider crusader? I mean the dex is meant to encompass both chaos and renegades, surely renegades have this equipment? Nothing in the fluff dictates that chaos forgot how to drive the crusader pattern landraider.

By your logic why don't Eldar warwalkers all carry pulse lasers, we have the technology, and we mount them on vehicles, why doesn't the IG have heavy weapon teams using a demolisher cannon? They posses the equipment and know how.

Balance > Fluff

Because all the rest of us players need to see 12 autocannons hiding behind an adl with 3 thundercannons, with a darkshroud hugging it

I'd hand you a tissue for all your tears but I ran out long ago. Cry more?

I'll make this easy for you and explain why I am even asking the question. Forgeworld has been on their HH kick lately, making pretty much everything set for Warhammer 30,000. Among those spiffy new models are Space Marines with Autocannons. (Autocannons which look an awful lot like the new Mark V that are using by SM in m42). Why in the bloody hell would Space Marines just stop using autocannons? It's not like the weapons stopped working?

Well I don't think it's fair to accuse another user of whining when you are the one pleading the case for your marines to have a wider array of loadouts.

These people (marines) kinda have their hands tied by codex and by their silly machine superstition. If that weak sauce answer doesn't do it for you I think you might need to find a more satisfying game or only play this game with people who agree with you.

Didn't the autocannon which was mainly only fielded by termies in the marine legion get superseded by the assault cannon? And that's why marines don't carry them around?

The reason why IG gets them on troops is because it takes 2 people to carry the damn thing and the mechanicum can't mount an assault cannon on a tripod- no STC or summin'

Someone's been reading IMHO

(10 Str7 AP4 shots would kill anything that isn't MEQ or TEQ, along with doing some jabs at MC's/light armor). - You guys do realize that forcing your opponent to make saves is probably the best way to get rid of them, right? The statistics will average out, and that Marine squad in the open would get ripped apart by autocannons. You don't need to ignore their armor to kill them. You just need to prioritize your targets accordingly. Additionally, 1s do in fact occur on a d6.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The tradeoff was that Devastators got Plasma Cannons while Havocs got Autocannons.
Autocannons didn't use to be so useful, nobody cared in 3rd/4th edition that they couldn't get Autocannons in SM armies, the Missile Launcher was generally considered to be superior as the penetration table was more punitive and the AP3 mattered more and being able to hurt AV13 more reliably on the damage table also mattered.

Chaos doesnt get multimeltas or plasma cannons, instead they get lowtech autocannons. All three weapons were around preheresey. Back in 4th and 5th, CSM players use to complain about how they wanted plasma cannons and C:SMs came up with all sorts of strange argument about how CSM couldnt build plasma cannons(but somehow have them on their dreadnaughts) or that plasma cannons were post heresey(which they werent)


In the end they need to make things unique between the factions. C:SM get 2 weapons for CSM 1. Its a pretty good trade

Land raider w exterminator autocannon on each sponson plus typhoon launcher on front turret. 10 man capacity, rationale being helios allows 6 and both lascannons and whirlwind would need more room for ammo. Thoughts? I really like russ exterminators and want a raider that can scythe through heavy infantry at long range


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Crusaders are cool and i think csm should be able to take them, however the 24" range keeps putting me off. Id go redeemer, only slightly less range for much better damage.

pax_imperialis wrote:
Land raider w exterminator autocannon on each sponson plus typhoon launcher on front turret. 10 man capacity, rationale being helios allows 6 and both lascannons and whirlwind would need more room for ammo. Thoughts? I really like russ exterminators and want a raider that can scythe through heavy infantry at long range


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Crusaders are cool and i think csm should be able to take them, however the 24" range keeps putting me off. Id go redeemer, only slightly less range for much better damage.

8 S7 shots and 2 S8 shots, all twin-linked? Sign me up! This would cost soooo many points though.

Assault Cannons are the Autocannons of the Space Marines.

I honestly have never understood people's fascination with Autocannons. Let's have a look at them:

They're S7 Ap4 and put out two shots.

They can harm monsters reliably (but not as reliably as a lascannon) but usually don't take away armour.
They can kill anything with a 4+ save pretty much outright For -12" and -2 Str, a heavy bolter does this almost more reliably. (most 4+ being T3 and all.)
They're decent against Av11. Since most flyers are 10~12, this makes them reliable anti-air. But of course, we're talking about a squad with no anti-air capabilities, dreadnoughts and tanks with no anti-air capabilities.

So, I'll concede that Quad Guns are useful. They're damn useful. Hades Autocannons are useful. Autocannons on a swivel, that can skyfire/intercept, are incredibly useful and can deal with a range of targets.

HYMP/PR Broadsides are sexy.
4AC devastators is not.

I'll stick to my missile launchers and Lascannons for devastators.

Autocannons have better range and id tau eldar guard etcmost basic infantry. They also can harasslight armour like trukks and grav tanks. Ap4 is good enough to negate a lot of heavy infantrysaves and by the time you advance youve got an extra shot or twoover heavy bolters if you advance at combat speed. Assault cannons are cool and all but the short range means your in the enemys range

pax_imperialis wrote:
Autocannons have better range and id tau eldar guard etcmost basic infantry. They also can harasslight armour like trukks and grav tanks. Ap4 is good enough to negate a lot of heavy infantrysaves and by the time you advance youve got an extra shot or twoover heavy bolters if you advance at combat speed. Assault cannons are cool and all but the short range means your in the enemys range

I see three statments here.

"Autocannons have good range and ID tau, Eldar and Guard basic infantry"

They instant death 1W models, huh?

Did you know a heavy bolter can do the same thing - a bolter can ID a terminator!

The range really isn't that useful, as most fighting happens at about 36" anyway - if you're really needing that extra 12", you should look at lascannons for definitive kills on more - they're usually around the same price, for some god-only-knows reason.

"Ap4 is good enough to negate a lot of heavy infantry saves"

sorry to tell you this, but 4+ is medium infantry territory. As is 3+, believe it or not. Although some people like to call 3+ heavy armour. (it isn't really.)

AP4 can only ignore armour of 4+ or better.

Heavy Bolters are exceptionally good when firing at 36". They're one of the only weapons that can consistently kill 2/3 models at 30" range, that I've seen. (of course, we're talking about multi-shot, non-blast weapons here - autocannons, heavy bolters and lascannon here. I do not include, and except special or weapons that are unique - a good example is Ion Cannons and to a similar extent, battle cannons.)

Assault cannons are possibly the most versatile weapon in the game, I'll have you know; they can attack monsters almost as effectively as an Autocannon (sometimes even better if you roll well), can take on more light and medium infantry than a heavy bolter, they can be harmful to terminators, again if they roll well, and they can even pop a land raider - they can explode a land raider, that is.

Being in your enemies range is a silly comment. If you take assault cannons (Space Marines) you're usually going to have to come to grips with your opponent. Guard take autocannons, sure, but they don't have access to assault cannons - as space marines don't have access to psycannons.

Psycannons, if you couldn't tell, are the most versatile weapon in the game, in my opinion.

I've never been a big fan of autocannons. Anytime I've come up against a list where people were using extensive autocannons, either the army fell on its face entirely, or the units in question underperformed spectacularly. Unless they were clearly the best option for their unit, I would probably never take them. In my personal opinion, their strength is too low to be a reliable against heavy vehicles, the AP is too high to be good against elite infantry, and the fire rate is too low to be reliable against horde units. It's a weapon which is mediocre in any role, but doesn't really excel at any of them. Just my personal opinion, of course. (And not the majority opinion, I fear.)

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

pax_imperialis wrote:
Autocannons have better range and id tau eldar guard etcmost basic infantry. They also can harasslight armour like trukks and grav tanks. Ap4 is good enough to negate a lot of heavy infantrysaves and by the time you advance youve got an extra shot or twoover heavy bolters if you advance at combat speed. Assault cannons are cool and all but the short range means your in the enemys range

I see three statments here.

"Autocannons have good range and ID tau, Eldar and Guard basic infantry"

They instant death 1W models, huh?

Did you know a heavy bolter can do the same thing - a bolter can ID a terminator!

The range really isn't that useful, as most fighting happens at about 36" anyway - if you're really needing that extra 12", you should look at lascannons for definitive kills on more - they're usually around the same price, for some god-only-knows reason.

"Ap4 is good enough to negate a lot of heavy infantry saves"

sorry to tell you this, but 4+ is medium infantry territory. As is 3+, believe it or not. Although some people like to call 3+ heavy armour. (it isn't really.)

AP4 can only ignore armour of 4+ or better.

Heavy Bolters are exceptionally good when firing at 36". They're one of the only weapons that can consistently kill 2/3 models at 30" range, that I've seen. (of course, we're talking about multi-shot, non-blast weapons here - autocannons, heavy bolters and lascannon here. I do not include, and except special or weapons that are unique - a good example is Ion Cannons and to a similar extent, battle cannons.)

Assault cannons are possibly the most versatile weapon in the game, I'll have you know; they can attack monsters almost as effectively as an Autocannon (sometimes even better if you roll well), can take on more light and medium infantry than a heavy bolter, they can be harmful to terminators, again if they roll well, and they can even pop a land raider - they can explode a land raider, that is.

Being in your enemies range is a silly comment. If you take assault cannons (Space Marines) you're usually going to have to come to grips with your opponent. Guard take autocannons, sure, but they don't have access to assault cannons - as space marines don't have access to psycannons.

Psycannons, if you couldn't tell, are the most versatile weapon in the game, in my opinion.

I dont play gk so wouldnt know. Assault cannons are great for termies and dreads and other stuff that will be commited to cqb, but i like mynraider to be a mobile firebase that can weaken the enemy from 48 away, close in and drop off assault troops to finish off difficult units. I dont like the idea of the enmy getting 2 full turns of hitting it with 48 range heavy weapons until it can open up with assault cannons, then another turn untilit can use flamers. And hurricane bolters just seem like the worst weapon ever for a heavy assault tank.
I think youre under the impression i hate assault cannons, i dont. I think theyre brilliant, all im suggesting is that i personallly prefer autocannons based on success ive had with exterminators. Heck il even agree with you and say non exterminator autocannons < assault cannons. As for hbs, im not sure how a strength five weapon can id a toughness 4 2+ 5++ save terminator sorry, think im missing something there. Suggesting an aversion to putting my 250 pts of land raider plus up to 500pts of troops ( half my army) in range of the enemys biggest guns without being able to fire back is not a "silly comment". Heaven forbid i dont play as a close combat army right?


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 Jimsolo wrote:
I've never been a big fan of autocannons. Anytime I've come up against a list where people were using extensive autocannons, either the army fell on its face entirely, or the units in question underperformed spectacularly. Unless they were clearly the best option for their unit, I would probably never take them. In my personal opinion, their strength is too low to be a reliable against heavy vehicles, the AP is too high to be good against elite infantry, and the fire rate is too low to be reliable against horde units. It's a weapon which is mediocre in any role, but doesn't really excel at any of them. Just my personal opinion, of course. (And not the majority opinion, I fear.)

Not at all, i think most people would agree. There was a raider in someones member pics on dakka with quad gun sponsons, i thought that was pretty cool. Basic autocannons are pretty crap, but the extra two shots on exterminators would be cool if coupled with bs4. On a different note, is there as much hating on punisher gatling guns?

 En Excelsis wrote:
Why in the bloody hell would Space Marines just stop using autocannons?

I'd hand you a tissue for all your tears but I ran out long ago. Cry more? Really, they got replaced by assault cannons, so maybe stop with the whining? There' no particular role left open that autocannons would fill, and considering how bitter the whining over the years has been that there's no difference between regular and spiky marines, it's a little amusing to hear an argument that marines need autocannons, just because.

New proposal: Everyone's basic gun is an autocannon. (That's what I thought when I read the thread name!)

 chrisrawr wrote:
New proposal: Everyone's basic gun is an autocannon. (That's what I thought when I read the thread name!)

Agree
Not like im asking gw to change it, think we all know gws past listening to its fanbase judging by the top threads at the moment, but in friendly games anyhting goes right?


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 Bookwrack wrote:

 En Excelsis wrote:
Why in the bloody hell would Space Marines just stop using autocannons?

I'd hand you a tissue for all your tears but I ran out long ago. Cry more? Really, they got replaced by assault cannons, so maybe stop with the whining? There' no particular role left open that autocannons would fill, and considering how bitter the whining over the years has been that there's no difference between regular and spiky marines, it's a little amusing to hear an argument that marines need autocannons, just because.

But they didnt stop, the pred uses them. Albeit the crappiest version, which makes no sense seeing as theyre supposed to have the best of everything.

I'd play against or with the inclusion of autocannon devastators just the same as i am with plasma cannon spam or heavy bolter spam heavy lists. it brings new elements of tactica ie before there was less of a challenge, this presents a whole new set. not all change is bad. autocannons on marines is barely a major issue like some seem to appear to think it is.

I see no reason for you to use autocannons—they seem less useful than the other options. However, I would be fine with you using them on your devastarors if you really wanted

 En Excelsis wrote:


I'd hand you a tissue for all your tears but I ran out long ago. Cry more?

How ironic, considering you've been crying through this whole thread about those goddamn autocannons.

As for the fething cannons, model them that way and use the rules of the heavy bolter or some gak.

I think every single space marine should be issued an autocannon instead of a bolter.

Reasons
Longer range
Easier to produce
Ammo is also easier to produce
Stronger and more penetration power
I dunno, it'd be cool to see 1000 space marines holding autocannons making it rain pain.

But my opinion is a little skewed. I try to convince people to take 9 punishers and all the psykers they can get to prescience them.

 ADustyMan wrote:
I think every single space marine should be issued an autocannon instead of a bolter.

Reasons
Longer range
Easier to produce
Ammo is also easier to produce
Stronger and more penetration power
I dunno, it'd be cool to see 1000 space marines holding autocannons making it rain pain.

But my opinion is a little skewed. I try to convince people to take 9 punishers and all the psykers they can get to prescience them.

You do know that autocannons are like fully automatic 75-88mm guns right? Physically carrying that many WW2 tank cannon sized munitions would severely gimp the marine's ammo capacity. But I will concede that it would be extremely awesome. I just don't want to be anywhere near the inevitable ammo cook off.