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 Ravenous D wrote:
Well thats the thing, the second it gets sent to the middle man shipper the store selling the goods is completely fine. They open the shipping box reseal it and then ship it again. Short of GW writing in "no selling to addresses known for shipping across borders." into the next trade agreement, even then, how the shiz are they supposed to know? Thats the entire point of the service.

Batch number on the box and see who it was dispatched to, one mystery shopper is all it takes to track a re-seller down.
Bitz would be a lot harder.

rigeld2 wrote:
That's not true. If GW suspects that the store with the trade agreement is shipping to a reseller (ie the middle man) they can pull the trade agreement even if no one at the store knows about it.

Yea, I was wondering what all this "proof" talk was about. GW doesn't need proof of anything to pull a trade account.

You guys are missing the important part.

The seller has no idea the goods he is sending is going to this shipping service. I can do it through GWUS is I wanted to ffs, what are they going to do? Shut themselves down?

GW cannot refuse to sell to a random address. Its no different then getting a friend is the US to buy something and send it to me.

 Ravenous D wrote:
You guys are missing the important part.

The seller has no idea the goods he is sending is going to this shipping service. I can do it through GWUS is I wanted to ffs, what are they going to do? Shut themselves down?

The seller doesn't have to know. GW can test if they feel like it but if they simply suspect it they can pull the agreement, no proof required.

And if you're buying straight from GW they don't care - you're not "saving" money.

GW cannot refuse to sell to a random address. Its no different then getting a friend is the US to buy something and send it to me.

They absolutely can refuse.

 Ravenous D wrote:
You guys are missing the important part.

The seller has no idea the goods he is sending is going to this shipping service. I can do it through GWUS is I wanted to ffs, what are they going to do? Shut themselves down?

GW cannot refuse to sell to a random address. Its no different then getting a friend is the US to buy something and send it to me.

1. From what I understand, the seller doesn't need to know to have their trade account shut down.

2. Yes, you could do it through GW, but you will have to live with worse prices and...

3. Even buying direct from GW they CAN refuse to sell to a random address. I'm sure they won't refuse to sell to "Bob Brown, New Jersey", but they might refuse to sell to "Big Bob's House of Miniatures, New Jersey" or they might refuse to sell to "Bob Brown, New Jersey" if Mr. Brown has bought 10 sets of Devastators in the past month and suspect him of being a reseller and/or exporter.

 Ravenous D wrote:
You guys are missing the important part.

The seller has no idea the goods he is sending is going to this shipping service. I can do it through GWUS is I wanted to ffs, what are they going to do? Shut themselves down?

GW cannot refuse to sell to a random address. Its no different then getting a friend is the US to buy something and send it to me.

It's vey different. Very. Your friend actually makes a purchase, then receives reimbursement from you, then sends you the package. As GW saw it, your American friend was the end user, and GW won't care about a few times this happens. Now if he decides to make. Business of it, GW won't be selling to him anymore....

And you don't seem to be familiar with contract law. All purchases/sales fall under contract law, which is the implicit agreement that you want to exchange currency for goods, with a number of other cavets included on the deal. GW is NOT a federal institution, and hence is NOT required to provide you with services, and can hence choose to not enter into a contract witht you. If GW has reason to suspect your violation of their policies, or simply don't like the way your face looks, they can choose not to sell To you, and have mall security remove you from their store...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


3. Even buying direct from GW they CAN refuse to sell to a random address. I'm sure they won't refuse to sell to "Bob Brown, New Jersey", but they might refuse to sell to "Big Bob's House of Miniatures, New Jersey" or they might refuse to sell to "Bob Brown, New Jersey" if Mr. Brown has bought 10 sets of Devastators in the past month and suspect him of being a reseller and/or exporter.

Yet ore reason to think that GW is going to put painters under stress, and maybe put a few of them under.

rigeld2 wrote:

And if you're buying straight from GW they don't care - you're not "saving" money.

.

Incorrect,

Canadian prices are 20 to 50% higher then the US ones. Aussies can use this same service to save a huge amount of money, instead of paying $65 for 1 pot of paint as it currently is (seriously look it up) they can use the shipper service to get it from GWUS for less and ship it to australia for much much cheaper.

For example, I tallied up a space marine army and it would cost me $650 + tax here, I could get it from the Warstore for $400, using the shipping service I avoid GWs border guards and I just saved $200+ dollars.

 Ravenous D wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

And if you're buying straight from GW they don't care - you're not "saving" money.

.

Incorrect,

Canadian prices are 20 to 50% higher then the US ones. Aussies can use this same service to save a huge amount of money, instead of paying $65 for 1 pot of paint as it currently is (seriously look it up) they can use the shipper service to get it from GWUS for less and ship it to australia for much much cheaper.

For example, I tallied up a space marine army and it would cost me $650 + tax here, I could get it from the Warstore for $400, using the shipping service I avoid GWs border guards and I just saved $200+ dollars.

Yes, and the shipper service is the one who's going to be in GW's crosshairs. They don't even have to chase down every single exporter, just shut down a few and all of a sudden it will become much harder to find exporters and resellers.

How are they going to touch the exporter? What they do is perfectly legal, they can order from any store in the US and ship to anywhere in the world. GW cant legally do anything against them unless plastic models sudden became narcotics or firearms...

They don't need to touch them,

all the need to do (and they will do it) is to stop selling them product at trade discount, or potentially at all

 Ravenous D wrote:
How are they going to touch the exporter? What they do is perfectly legal, they can order from any store in the US and ship to anywhere in the world. GW cant legally do anything against them unless plastic models sudden became narcotics or firearms...

If there's an exporter and GW suspects them, they can choose not to sell to them.
There's no legal issue here - they are not legally required to sell to any individual.

 Ravenous D wrote:
How are they going to touch the exporter? What they do is perfectly legal, they can order from any store in the US and ship to anywhere in the world. GW cant legally do anything against them unless plastic models sudden became narcotics or firearms...

It's not illegal but it's not protected. In the EU parallel trade is legally protected by a few treaties not between US/Canada.
GW can refuse to sell to stockists who allow for parallel trade, EVERY drug company does the same. Notice the efforts put in to stop drugs crossing the canadian boarder by pfizer etc.
The reason they can do it without any issues is that they put it into their contracts and nothing is illegal about that.

 Ravenous D wrote:
How are they going to touch the exporter? What they do is perfectly legal, they can order from any store in the US and ship to anywhere in the world. GW cant legally do anything against them unless plastic models sudden became narcotics or firearms...

They can legally do what they like with the product once they have it, but GW reserve the right to stop supplying them and stop supplying the stores that supply them. Now, I don't expect GW to chase every single exporter and reseller, but all they need to do is catch one or two and stop their supply source and place them on a blacklist and all of a sudden those exporters are going to have a much harder time getting the stock to export.

That's why I said if 'Bob" buys some boxed sets then nothing is going to happen, he can export the couple of boxed sets he bought no worries. But if Bob has a business and is buying under the business' name, GW can refuse sale and could even blacklist him to make other retailers less likely to sell to Bob because they don't want to lose their trade account thanks to Bob. Even if Bob doesn't have an organised business name that he buys under, if he's buying extremely large amounts at a time, he may find himself black listed. Now Bob COULD spread those purchases out across multiple stores and such and I think that'd work fine, but given GW doesn't allow 3rd party online sales either, it's a lot more leg work for Bob to get his stock.

The way I see it, GW aren't trying to completely eliminate exporters and resellers, that's almost impossible, and they aren't trying to take legal action against exporters and resellers, they really have no grounds for legal action. What they, IMO, are trying to do is make it far less convenient for people to export and sell bits and even compete with GW direct. So that when Mr. Australian wants to import a boxed set from the US, he has to spend far longer digging around to find someone who will sell to him and it will probably cost him more in the process (since it's less convenient for the exporters they'll probably raise prices) thus making it less viable to import models from cheaper markets. Likewise making it harder and more expensive to get bits. Likewise making it harder for your average 3rd party company to compete with GW direct.

 Flashman wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:
3) Brits have sucked at taking over the US market. Failed in 1776 and 1812. Mildly successful with the Beatles.

Harry Potter, Simon Cowell, the World Wide Web

Those are cultural, but there are also big industries too. British Petroleum, BAE Systems (Ship Building and Aerospace),

http://www.babc.org/

@Mikhaila - agreed with almost every point exactly. And I know GW Trade knew most of that when I worked there...

Quite honestly everyone is worked up over the bits sales. If GW is not selling to you at Trade Discount (IE the bits seller buys either direct or from a store), I doubt they really care too much. Sure they'll say that they want everyone to buy a new box for bits, but they KNOW that won't happen. People used to trade parts. GW did not care and has even promoted that in their own stores. May not be thrilled with people making money off of it, but as long as trade terms are not being used it is SMALL potatoes to GW.

The stores that are selling out at a discount and then shipping you everything but the box (to save on shipping) bother them a lot more. Especially the ones just on ebay. The internet discounters (especially in GW's mind) hurt the Independent stores. GW trade is far more effective at making them money than GW US retail. They need good and healthy stores for that to happen, and the discounters make their job harder. Which leads to less money.

I'm willing to bet you might find a few of the "boxless" shippers or discounters closed by these policies (or having the policies enforced against them). But I doubt they'll close down too many "bits" sellers anytime soon. Unless they can connect one with an internet discounter...and expect that account to get pulled.

The might go after one if their sales price for all of the bits was less than retail......but when would that happen? They also wont go after a B&M store that sells bits/does a bits bazaar/or has a special...buy the new box and you trade the army you don't want with another gamer. Because it is a B&M store working with its LOCAL community. As Mikhaila said- he has never been given a problem over the $500. amount. I know my local store has gone over that amount before (not every month, but at least 3 times in the last year when I bought fantasy or 40k armies for myself - and that was going over on JUST MY ORDER). His sales rep did ask if he was stocking them or ordering them. But I still got my figs

The current pricing model reflects part of their attempts to correct some things. I think it mostly failed. But they are going after discounters and the "boxless shippers" a lot more than the 2nd hand bits dealers. The pricing failed (because I think it was a flawed plan), so now they have moved on to this. But except for expanding US existing terms to North America, this is actually a very small change overall - a lot of this has been in place for a long time.

Empchild still plans on selling bits. I'm sure he will. So no big change on that front for gamers.

 Tethyr13 wrote:
The internet discounters (especially in GW's mind) hurt the Independent stores.

Except, again, most of the bigger internet discounters are also B&M stores. So this idea that stores can't compete with 'internet only' stores is patently false. Stores just choose not to, and then complain that they are losing sales.

If I open a gaming store and decide to only open on tuesdays, is it reasonable for me to complain that I am losing sales to those stores that are open all week? Should GW move to forbid stores from being open on any other day to keep things 'fair' for me?

This is no different. If you refuse to accept that this is 2013 and the internet is a thing, that's your choice. Other people who have chosen to move with the times should not be penalised for your decision to not compete on today's changing retail playing field.

 insaniak wrote:

 Tethyr13 wrote:
The internet discounters (especially in GW's mind) hurt the Independent stores.

Except, again, most of the bigger internet discounters are also B&M stores. So this idea that stores can't compete with 'internet only' stores is patently false. Stores just choose not to, and then complain that they are losing sales.

If I open a gaming store and decide to only open on tuesdays, is it reasonable for me to complain that I am losing sales to those stores that are open all week? Should GW move to forbid stores from being open on any other day to keep things 'fair' for me?

This is no different. If you refuse to accept that this is 2013 and the internet is a thing, that's your choice. Other people who have chosen to move with the times should not be penalised for your decision to not compete on today's changing retail playing field.

This is an attitude that ignores the reality of owning a retail store in 2013. The 40 to 50% margin that game manufacturers build into their MSRPs is what retailers need in order to maintain inventory levels and pay their overhead. Sure, we'd sell a few more of everything if we marked it all down, but we'd need to sell a LOT more to make up the lost income. We can only skirt that 40 to 50% margin on guaranteed sales, or else we're spending our limited dollars poorly. Internet retailers can mark their prices down because their potential customer base is exponentially bigger than a local store's (meaning they CAN sell a lot more by lowering their prices, as opposed to stores) and often they aren't paying for expensive commercial real estate so their overhead's a lot lower than a store's. If we can sell 10 of a product at full price or 12 of a product at 20% off, we'd be stupid to sell at a 20% discount. We'd have to sell 18 to make the same amount of money as just selling 10 at full price. When your products are niche and your customer base occupies a limited geographical area, there's just not much chance of selling those extra 8 units, even at the discounted price.

redcapscorner wrote:
This is an attitude that ignores the reality of owning a retail store in 2013.

No, this is an attitude based on, as I said, the fact that the larger internet discounters generally also have physical stores.

redcapscorner wrote:
When your products are niche and your customer base occupies a limited geographical area, there's just not much chance of selling those extra 8 units, even at the discounted price.

Indeed. If only there were some way you could reach a wider customer base...

You're right, but you're talking about a game of diminishing returns. Selling on the internet does not offer infinite opportunity. The more stores sell on the internet, the less impact selling on the internet will have on a store's ability to lower their prices or sell more product.

The end result of your plan is no more physical stores. This is definitely bad for gaming, as stores do most of the legwork of connecting gamers with one another and providing play space.

This is exactly what has happened in most other geeky niche markets, like record stores and comic stores. The physical stores that are surviving are the ones that are offering more for the money in ways other than just flat discounts. Game stores have held out longer because their business model so often includes extra value in the form of play space.

In short, discounting at a store level requires the extra customers provided by online sales, but the more stores pursue that option the closer game stores come to extinction. I don't agree with much GW does, but as a retailer (even as a retailer who IS beginning to branch into online sales), I'm pleasantly surprised that GW is taking active steps to preserve the existence of the brick & mortar store. The internet is a cold and soulless place.

Insaniak - you are correct because they have to have a store to get the product due to gw's terms (in US for sure). But they are affecting more than their LOCAL area. The only way to compete is to repeat what they are doing.....but the internet mainly stores basically try to survive on everyone else's veteran gamers. Losing those sales hurts the other stores that focus mainly on the gaming. To compete you have to become one of them. But how much of their sales happen at their stores, and how much online? Would they do more than half the business at the B&M and the rest online? I doubt that. So being "Also" a B&M store doesn't mean you are good at bringing the hobby to people. I might like Neal at the Warstore (and I do), but I find it very hard to play at his store from Michigan....

Opening hours and discount are different things, but it is not about being fair at all.....I'm just trying to let you know the thinking that existed at one time in GW Trade Sales. Different sales members felt this more strongly. One of the head guys at that time works for Battlefront who seem to have a no discount over 10% rule. Wonder if his experience at GW US is why that is in place? (Gee, I know this one!)

GW would love to make all continuous discounting go away. It won't happen, but those doorways are one reason. Their perception of their products value is the other.

And I have no problem accepting anything. I make a nice living in computers and the internet. But there is a lot more than "Other people who have chosen to move with the times should not be penalised for your decision to not compete on today's changing retail playing field." at stake in GW's mind. I even disagree with a lot of things the "New" GW do. Please don't confuse me as a white knight on everything GW does.

But as far as policies that would exist if they could (or at least when I worked there) - discounters would be gone. They are trying to limit them in UK. They are placing limits on them here. And overall I think they are just trying to make it harder for those business that chose that method to do business.

Regardless of cost (an noone should think GW wouldn't think that part of it), GW would be much happier dealing with stores like Mikhaila's then all of the internet discounters. Their PERCEPTION would be that the hobby and their relations with the retailers would be better at that point.

I think they tried to modify some of this with price, and it failed. In fact it drove more business to these sites, made more of them, and made discounting even more prevalent. Think about all of the discounting that Ford and GM and Chrysler were doing on their cars before they collapsed and were bailed out. Sure some people got some nice cheap cars. But did it help GM? Chrysler? Even some of the more secure foreign manufacturers started giving away too much. More than just profits were affected. (Look at all of the recalls)

You can think I'm refusing or not. It doesn't matter. There is a bigger "Meta"game going on here, and I was trying to give insight into GW's view as it was when I worked there. Lots of things that look good at one time can lead to radical shifts or disappearance of a market. Almost all of those started with a "Better" way to do things. If this is a brave new bold future....fine. If it hurts the hobby long term, then is it good?

Also @redcapscorner - diminishing returns is right. For a LOCAL store to discount heavily is basically having an extended going out of business sale. If it has gone on a long time....that store is gone unless the owners family is using it as a tax write off (and I do know 1 store that does this!). Sure on the internet I can sell more by discounting. But GW has to focus on the stores that aren't selling all of those items that sell online. Because those are the doorways that they need.

redcapscorner wrote:
The end result of your plan is no more physical stores. This is definitely bad for gaming, as stores do most of the legwork of connecting gamers with one another and providing play space.

In the US currently, sure, because up to now that's the culture that has grown there. That's not the only way for it to work, though.

In Oz, where stores are much more spread out, that networking is done by the gamers themselves, through gaming clubs and tournaments. The vast majority of stores that have sold GW stuff in Oz have never had gaming space at all... in many cases they were craft or toy stores who had nobody on staff who knew anything about gaming at all. The number of independant stockists has (based on a quick perusal of White Dwarf in a newsagents a few months back) at least halved over the last 10 years, and yet the gaming scene is stronger now than it has ever been. Physical stores are not an essential part of this process.

This is exactly what has happened in most other geeky niche markets, like record stores and comic stores. The physical stores that are surviving are the ones that are offering more for the money in ways other than just flat discounts. Game stores have held out longer because their business model so often includes extra value in the form of play space.

And there is no reason that has to change. It just means that stores have to be smarter about how they run, and where they make their money.

GW's 'bury your head in the sand and pretend the internet doesn't exist... except for our own webstore, of course' approach is short sighted and just delays the inevitable. It's not helpful to independants... it just removes their ability to compete in the online market, and pulls those sales that independant webstores could have made back to GW themselves.

The internet is not going away. The smart business is the one who figures out how to use it to their advantage, not the one who tries to pretend that it's still the '90s.

 Ravenous D wrote:
How are they going to touch the exporter? What they do is perfectly legal, they can order from any store in the US and ship to anywhere in the world. GW cant legally do anything against them unless plastic models sudden became narcotics or firearms...

you are being wilfully and intentionally ignorant by this point.....

GW CAN STOP SELLING TO THE SELLER AND REFUSE TO SELL TO ANYONE WHO SELLS TO THAT INTERNATIONAL SELLER. did all caps help you understand that? GW can cancel their agreement with a retailer at any time. They don't have to go after anyone, they can simply stop selling to them, or selling to their supplier, or suppliers supplier.... or whoever is the first point of sale that GW supplies to and loses control of their product. The TTWG market is still not yet large enough for an established store to go without selling GW's toys.

so, legally speaking, GW can stop selling to offending retailers, and any retailers who fail to control their own sale of GW product. It's the retailers who can't do a damn thing legally if GW pulls the plug.

I have no doubts at all that countries on other continents do things differently. I'm a UK citizen who lives in the US, so I've seen first-hand the big differences between gaming scenes even between those two countries. But, this is a thread about GW's new North American trade policy. Has GW announced any changes to their Australian trade policy that prevent Australians from selling on the internet? I have no reason to believe you're wrong about Australia being less reliant on game stores for community-building (and it certainly makes sense given how spread out Australia is), but the US is very reliant on game stores and, like I said, game stores will cease to exist if they continue to become more and more reliant on the internet for business. This isn't to say they should ignore the internet. You're right; that would be stupid. But in the US (and presumably Canada, though I don't know for sure) where this policy is going into effect, restrictions on online sales are very, very healthy for gaming.

In the US stores are not essential either. They are nice for some people, but people who play in stores in the US...or 'clubs' for that matter are the minority.

Most people dont get started gaming by walking in off the streetat random and buy a box full of miniatures. Friends, family, friends of friends...those are who introduce people to gaming. In the past 30+ years of gaming I gamed in a store for one period that lasted about 3 months...that was when I was living in the dorms and our regular gaming location was undergoing a remodel (into a dedicated game room no less).

Remember, there are well over 4 million gamers in the US...you wont see the majority of them gaming in stores.

I respectfully believe you're wrong about that, at least in the US. I understand that many people don't game in stores. I don't deny that at all, but I believe you're dead wrong that it's the majority in this country (for miniatures games, anyway). The math is clearer when you break people down into "casual gamer" vs. "hardcore gamer" categories. I believe a majority of casual gamers likely don't game in-store at all (though that majority is much smaller when it comes to miniatures than with most other gaming), but hardcore gamers absolutely depend on stores in the US.

 insaniak wrote:
In the US currently, sure, because up to now that's the culture that has grown there. That's not the only way for it to work, though. .

Just a small point: The discussion is about the rules GW is putting down for US/NA stores to follow. Not the rest of the world. So the gaming culture and nature of US stores is very relevant.

While there are different ways to do it, that doesn't mean US gaming can or will evolve that way.

And yes, several large internet retailers have stores. And those stores are pretty much only there to get them trade account status.

The business model for an interernet retailer is far different from the average store. Cheap warehouse vs. locationlocationlocation.

Its not possible for many stores to change their business model. Telling people 'change or die' really comes across to me as just "Go away and Die, I want to see gaming evolve the way I want it to be"

My store may evolve, or it might stay the same. But I really don't see any reason to try and evolve my business to fit someone elses idea. What works in your country may not work in the US, or even just in my location.

 mikhaila wrote:
Just a small point: The discussion is about the rules GW is putting down for US/NA stores to follow. Not the rest of the world. So the gaming culture and nature of US stores is very relevant.

Absolutely. But my point was simply that just because it works that way in the US currently, that doesn't mean that it has to work that way.

Telling people 'change or die' really comes across to me as just "Go away and Die, I want to see gaming evolve the way I want it to be"

Not at all how it was meant. But the simple fact is that the nature of retail is changing. This isn't something new... Retail has always changed to suit the times, and the changing demands of customers. That's just the nature of the beast.

I certainly don't want to see businesses fail. But yes, I am going to expect businesses to try to fulfill my needs, and those that do will be the ones who get my custom. Again, that's the nature of the beast.

redcapscorner wrote:
I respectfully believe you're wrong about that, at least in the US. I understand that many people don't game in stores. I don't deny that at all, but I believe you're dead wrong that it's the majority in this country (for miniatures games, anyway). The math is clearer when you break people down into "casual gamer" vs. "hardcore gamer" categories. I believe a majority of casual gamers likely don't game in-store at all (though that majority is much smaller when it comes to miniatures than with most other gaming), but hardcore gamers absolutely depend on stores in the US.

The 12-15 people I game with (all tabletop wargames from 40k to historicals) don't play in stores, never have. I've played maybe three or four times in a store (GW or FLGS) in 15+ years of gaming. There are way more people playing in basements or homes in the US than stores. And I'm more than a casual gamer - I attended GWs GTs every year for 10 or so years, have multiple armies in several different eras, have forces for all the GW specialist games, etc.

And if this does actually result in a decrease or removal of online discounts, it doesn't mean I'm buying from an LGS, I'm not buying period. I'll fully switch over to historicals even though I love the GW background. At that point, its more value for my money to spend it on non-GW product. The only thing that makes GW prices remotely palatable is online discounts.

And as a basement/home gamer, I have no 'pay where you play' to fuss about.

redcapscorner wrote:
I respectfully believe you're wrong about that, at least in the US. I understand that many people don't game in stores. I don't deny that at all, but I believe you're dead wrong that it's the majority in this country (for miniatures games, anyway). The math is clearer when you break people down into "casual gamer" vs. "hardcore gamer" categories. I believe a majority of casual gamers likely don't game in-store at all (though that majority is much smaller when it comes to miniatures than with most other gaming), but hardcore gamers absolutely depend on stores in the US.

Hardcore anything is a fraction of a fraction of the population...while they are vocal, they do not generally represent a large portion of the population...and being 'hardcore' would be more able to find their own venues and gaming partners then a casual gamer.

There is no reason to believe the percentage is wrong, and given that large of a number for the population and how small the populations at game nights in stores, tournaments and other 'hardcore' events...the evidence would seem to indicate that hardcore in store gamers are the minority.

The math is very clear, and I would bet that the majority of any LGS customers do not actually game there.

redcapscorner wrote:
I have no doubts at all that countries on other continents do things differently. I'm a UK citizen who lives in the US, so I've seen first-hand the big differences between gaming scenes even between those two countries. But, this is a thread about GW's new North American trade policy. Has GW announced any changes to their Australian trade policy that prevent Australians from selling on the internet? I have no reason to believe you're wrong about Australia being less reliant on game stores for community-building (and it certainly makes sense given how spread out Australia is), but the US is very reliant on game stores and, like I said, game stores will cease to exist if they continue to become more and more reliant on the internet for business. This isn't to say they should ignore the internet. You're right; that would be stupid. But in the US (and presumably Canada, though I don't know for sure) where this policy is going into effect, restrictions on online sales are very, very healthy for gaming.

though id quickly comment on this. who in their right mind anywhere in the world wants to pay Aussie prices for GW products? sell em on the net? no sir i will buy the occasional item from TCC but i wont be buying a few thousand points here....