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redcapscorner wrote:
I respectfully believe you're wrong about that, at least in the US. I understand that many people don't game in stores. I don't deny that at all, but I believe you're dead wrong that it's the majority in this country (for miniatures games, anyway). The math is clearer when you break people down into "casual gamer" vs. "hardcore gamer" categories. I believe a majority of casual gamers likely don't game in-store at all (though that majority is much smaller when it comes to miniatures than with most other gaming), but hardcore gamers absolutely depend on stores in the US.

i know there's a response or two to this already, but I have a quick and easy way of tearing this argument to shreds.

Beer.

There's gaming, and then there's gaming with beer. Gaming with beer is preferential to, and superior to, just gaming. Gaming with beer cannot be in a store, however awesome that store is. It's like going to a baseball game, and everything they served was non-alcoholic. The sport would be dead in 5 minutes.

 poda_t wrote:

redcapscorner wrote:
I respectfully believe you're wrong about that, at least in the US. I understand that many people don't game in stores. I don't deny that at all, but I believe you're dead wrong that it's the majority in this country (for miniatures games, anyway). The math is clearer when you break people down into "casual gamer" vs. "hardcore gamer" categories. I believe a majority of casual gamers likely don't game in-store at all (though that majority is much smaller when it comes to miniatures than with most other gaming), but hardcore gamers absolutely depend on stores in the US.

i know there's a response or two to this already, but I have a quick and easy way of tearing this argument to shreds.

Beer.

There's gaming, and then there's gaming with beer. Gaming with beer is preferential to, and superior to, just gaming. Gaming with beer cannot be in a store, however awesome that store is. It's like going to a baseball game, and everything they served was non-alcoholic. The sport would be dead in 5 minutes.

Depends on the store.

I keep my store open until 2am most friday nights. Most guys show up betweeen 6 and 7, and we have to behave until 9. After that, its brewtime. Between tabletop wargames and FNM we usually have 50 people. We drink lots of beer. (Well, i do. Really helps when my army is getting rolled up in turn 3. ). Sometimes i make chili and pulled pork to go with the beer and dice rolling.

 mikhaila wrote:
I keep my store open until 2am most friday nights. Most guys show up betweeen 6 and 7, and we have to behave until 9. After that, its brewtime. Between tabletop wargames and FNM we usually have 50 people. We drink lots of beer. (Well, i do. Really helps when my army is getting rolled up in turn 3. ). Sometimes i make chili and pulled pork to go with the beer and dice rolling.

So... ignore my previous comments. Might be time to consider moving to the US.

 insaniak wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:
Just a small point: The discussion is about the rules GW is putting down for US/NA stores to follow. Not the rest of the world. So the gaming culture and nature of US stores is very relevant.

Absolutely. But my point was simply that just because it works that way in the US currently, that doesn't mean that it has to work that way.

Telling people 'change or die' really comes across to me as just "Go away and Die, I want to see gaming evolve the way I want it to be"

Not at all how it was meant. But the simple fact is that the nature of retail is changing. This isn't something new... Retail has always changed to suit the times, and the changing demands of customers. That's just the nature of the beast.

I certainly don't want to see businesses fail. But yes, I am going to expect businesses to try to fulfill my needs, and those that do will be the ones who get my custom. Again, that's the nature of the beast.

The problem is hearing people say the same often used phrases, over and over until you they get really annoying. People may not mean anything when they use them, but they do have meaning to the people directly affected by the situations. I've probably heard the whole "retail has to change/evolve or die" arguement 100 times here on daka. But most people don't know a thing about the realities of running your own business. They just spout the words. Thats why it gets annoying after awhile.
Its easy to throw the words out, and you all just want to score some points in an ongoing debate.

To some of us, the situation is a bit more real. We aren't arguing theoreticals.

Many of you get upset when your codex changes. It doesn't make you feel better if some tells you "The game changed, deal with it, paint a new army or lose all your games".

Imagine from the perspective of a a game store owner, where the store is literally your life. Literally. Its 70 hours a week and how you support a family. Any threat to it is taken seriously.

The evolve or die crap isn't really a threat, just annoying as hell.

All businesses change. One of the changes in the US was instore gaming. We evolved to fulfill customer needs, and created some new needs. I had no tables when I opened. Had 4 tables 12 years ago. Saw what you could do with a bigger area, went to 12 tables now, and thinging of getting bigger. We run 50 person events, and i want to do 100. We carry 3x the stock we used to, to fulfill 3x the needs of our customers.

None of this happens with a 20-30% discount attatched to it. Discounting on the internet is a totally different model. It may fulfill some needs of some customers, but not the needs of others.

There are many ways that gaming communities evolve. Some have a focus around clubs, some around stores. Different countries have different dynamics.

I didn't really mean to get up on a soap box. But at times my buttons get pushed and you guys get a sermon. Not really aimed at anything in particular.

 mikhaila wrote:
Depends on the store.

I keep my store open until 2am most friday nights. Most guys show up betweeen 6 and 7, and we have to behave until 9. After that, its brewtime. Between tabletop wargames and FNM we usually have 50 people. We drink lots of beer. (Well, i do. Really helps when my army is getting rolled up in turn 3. ). Sometimes i make chili and pulled pork to go with the beer and dice rolling.

And where are you at again?
I need to know ... for reasons.
I'm totally not going to try and convince my wife to move there since we both work from home and our geographic location just doesn't matter...

Unless you get snow. Then I'm not sure it's worth it. :-)

 mikhaila wrote:
I didn't really mean to get up on a soap box. But at times my buttons get pushed and you guys get a sermon. Not really aimed at anything in particular.

It's all good. Your input as as a store owner to discussions like this one has been great... It's always good to see the other side of the coin. I certainly didn't mean to offend.

 poda_t wrote:
There's gaming, and then there's gaming with beer. Gaming with beer is preferential to, and superior to, just gaming. Gaming with beer cannot be in a store, however awesome that store is. It's like going to a baseball game, and everything they served was non-alcoholic. The sport would be dead in 5 minutes.

Or to frame that another way, "Baseball! The sport that nobody would want to watch sober!"

I just don't understand the allure of alcohol.

 Grugknuckle wrote:

 Flashman wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:
3) Brits have sucked at taking over the US market. Failed in 1776 and 1812. Mildly successful with the Beatles.

Harry Potter, Simon Cowell, the World Wide Web

Those are cultural, but there are also big industries too. British Petroleum, BAE Systems (Ship Building and Aerospace),

http://www.babc.org/

LOL @ BAE Systems, that is a corporation that really is as evil as the worst hater thinks GW is.

All my bits I have are swaps or trades

This put MWG to the point of closing. Im pissed.

 mikhaila wrote:

 poda_t wrote:

redcapscorner wrote:
I respectfully believe you're wrong about that, at least in the US. I understand that many people don't game in stores. I don't deny that at all, but I believe you're dead wrong that it's the majority in this country (for miniatures games, anyway). The math is clearer when you break people down into "casual gamer" vs. "hardcore gamer" categories. I believe a majority of casual gamers likely don't game in-store at all (though that majority is much smaller when it comes to miniatures than with most other gaming), but hardcore gamers absolutely depend on stores in the US.

i know there's a response or two to this already, but I have a quick and easy way of tearing this argument to shreds.

Beer.

There's gaming, and then there's gaming with beer. Gaming with beer is preferential to, and superior to, just gaming. Gaming with beer cannot be in a store, however awesome that store is. It's like going to a baseball game, and everything they served was non-alcoholic. The sport would be dead in 5 minutes.

Depends on the store.

I keep my store open until 2am most friday nights. Most guys show up betweeen 6 and 7, and we have to behave until 9. After that, its brewtime. Between tabletop wargames and FNM we usually have 50 people. We drink lots of beer. (Well, i do. Really helps when my army is getting rolled up in turn 3. ). Sometimes i make chili and pulled pork to go with the beer and dice rolling.

holy crap you wouldnt happen to be in california would you?

It's obviously a moot argument as there's no way to know for sure what percentage of gamers in the US value and count on stores, but my perspective as the owner of a store is no less valid than "me and my fifteen friends are hardcore gamers who never go to stores" guy's or "beer makes gaming better" guy's. We're all coloured by our vantage points. Sure, if you and your friends don't go to stores, it's going to seem like no one does, and if beer's as important to you as gaming, it's going to be hard to believe the same is not true of everybody. I own a store, so I guess all I can say for sure is that most of our customers DO game in-store. We get plenty who don't, but most do, and that's even more true of miniatures gaming than of any other sort. Obviously a store isn't an unbiased place to gather statistics about whether or not people value stores, so I'll leave the issue be. I hope you can see that just because you and your fifteen friends don't utilize the services of a good store doesn't mean that a huge number of Americans don't value and count on stores.

And Mikhalia's store is in Pennsylvania, just a few miles from mine. His store's every bit as awesome as it sounds. Philadelphia-area game stores set the bar pretty high.

rigeld2 wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:
Depends on the store.

I keep my store open until 2am most friday nights. Most guys show up betweeen 6 and 7, and we have to behave until 9. After that, its brewtime. Between tabletop wargames and FNM we usually have 50 people. We drink lots of beer. (Well, i do. Really helps when my army is getting rolled up in turn 3. ). Sometimes i make chili and pulled pork to go with the beer and dice rolling.

And where are you at again?
I need to know ... for reasons.
I'm totally not going to try and convince my wife to move there since we both work from home and our geographic location just doesn't matter...

Unless you get snow. Then I'm not sure it's worth it. :-)

Media PA, in the western Philadelphia suburbs.

Our snowfall is pathetic. My girls and I rush out to build snowmen, knowing the chance of it lasting a couple of days is minimal. I grew up in the Sierra Nevada, that had real snow.

The most I can get from this thread is that I should step up my orders for bitz that I have been pondering over from The Warstore before that becomes impossible. For instance there are several nice sprues of figures from the starter sets that along with the accompanying solo figure in each starter would make very nice ready-made warbands for small skirmish games like In the Emperor's Name (Ork sprue + warboss from AoBR along with the Chaos marines + Chaos lord from DV) and will cost about 20 bucks. I can get that from various places on Ebay, but I would rather have the ease of buying them from a store I am already purchasing other material.

Add in a smattering of Eldar, Ork and Space Marine bitz to fill out my existing armies and GW can kiss my white behind if they don't want my business anymore. I'm not buying a whole box of Guardians when I just need the weapons platform and a selection of heavy weapons for it, for instance. Or an entire tank kit if I want to equip my old Falcons with something other than a Scatter Laser, when that wasn't an option when they first came out.

It's truly saddening for a guy like me, for which the hobby has been about the modelling and converting foremost.

I might have to swing by some time, I'm living about an hour and 25 mins north from Media, PA. I grew up and lived in Australia, so this past winter I've seen more snow than I had previously seen in my entire life

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I might have to swing by some time, I'm living about an hour and 25 mins north from Media, PA. I grew up and lived in Australia, so this past winter I've seen more snow than I had previously seen in my entire life

I've got friends that come down from Hazelton and Allentowne most weekends to do a day or two of gaming. They definitely get a bit more snow than we do down here. A bit higher elevation i think as you go north.

 mikhaila wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I might have to swing by some time, I'm living about an hour and 25 mins north from Media, PA. I grew up and lived in Australia, so this past winter I've seen more snow than I had previously seen in my entire life

I've got friends that come down from Hazelton and Allentowne most weekends to do a day or two of gaming. They definitely get a bit more snow than we do down here. A bit higher elevation i think as you go north.

depends how far north you go. For the first time in a decade i think, we managed to actually have a white christmas. (and that, only because we celebrate ours on the eve of the 24th....)

Ahahahahahah...

Even GW wouldn't be stupid enough to try this. And they've done some pretty stupid things before. I find it hard to believe that even the idiots at the head of the company would be that moronic.

And even if they would, I find it hard to believe that the poor rank-and-file of GW would bother trying to put it in to place. I don't think that the poor bloke behind the counter at your FLGW is going to have a reaction to this very far off of "feth it".

 Squigsquasher wrote:
Ahahahahahah...

Even GW wouldn't be stupid enough to try this. And they've done some pretty stupid things before. I find it hard to believe that even the idiots at the head of the company would be that moronic.

And even if they would, I find it hard to believe that the poor rank-and-file of GW would bother trying to put it in to place. I don't think that the poor bloke behind the counter at your FLGW is going to have a reaction to this very far off of "feth it".

So, you identify idiotic behavior on the part of GW, and then make a remark saying that they aren't so stupid as to make another stupid decision........ since when has precedent been a case against forecasting repeated instances behaviour? Let me tell you, my dog doesn't run to the closet cowering in fear of her life when i pull the biscuits out, and she doesn't start drooling when i start brandishing objects and raising my voice...

You didn't fall for this April fool's joke, right?

 poda_t wrote:

 Squigsquasher wrote:
Ahahahahahah...

Even GW wouldn't be stupid enough to try this. And they've done some pretty stupid things before. I find it hard to believe that even the idiots at the head of the company would be that moronic.

And even if they would, I find it hard to believe that the poor rank-and-file of GW would bother trying to put it in to place. I don't think that the poor bloke behind the counter at your FLGW is going to have a reaction to this very far off of "feth it".

So, you identify idiotic behavior on the part of GW, and then make a remark saying that they aren't so stupid as to make another stupid decision........ since when has precedent been a case against forecasting repeated instances behaviour? Let me tell you, my dog doesn't run to the closet cowering in fear of her life when i pull the biscuits out, and she doesn't start drooling when i start brandishing objects and raising my voice...

Erm...

My puny mind is struggling to understand what you're talking about...

 Squigsquasher wrote:

 poda_t wrote:

 Squigsquasher wrote:
Ahahahahahah...

Even GW wouldn't be stupid enough to try this. And they've done some pretty stupid things before. I find it hard to believe that even the idiots at the head of the company would be that moronic.

And even if they would, I find it hard to believe that the poor rank-and-file of GW would bother trying to put it in to place. I don't think that the poor bloke behind the counter at your FLGW is going to have a reaction to this very far off of "feth it".

So, you identify idiotic behavior on the part of GW, and then make a remark saying that they aren't so stupid as to make another stupid decision........ since when has precedent been a case against forecasting repeated instances behaviour? Let me tell you, my dog doesn't run to the closet cowering in fear of her life when i pull the biscuits out, and she doesn't start drooling when i start brandishing objects and raising my voice...

Erm...

My puny mind is struggling to understand what you're talking about...

you were saying GW isn't stupid enough to try it.... that they have done other stupid things, but that they can't be stupid enough to try this. I argued that that's a silly position to take, since their previous stupidity is a good indicator that they are capable of perpetrating many and more stupid acts, including this trade policy.

 poda_t wrote:

 Squigsquasher wrote:

 poda_t wrote:

 Squigsquasher wrote:
Ahahahahahah...

Even GW wouldn't be stupid enough to try this. And they've done some pretty stupid things before. I find it hard to believe that even the idiots at the head of the company would be that moronic.

And even if they would, I find it hard to believe that the poor rank-and-file of GW would bother trying to put it in to place. I don't think that the poor bloke behind the counter at your FLGW is going to have a reaction to this very far off of "feth it".

So, you identify idiotic behavior on the part of GW, and then make a remark saying that they aren't so stupid as to make another stupid decision........ since when has precedent been a case against forecasting repeated instances behaviour? Let me tell you, my dog doesn't run to the closet cowering in fear of her life when i pull the biscuits out, and she doesn't start drooling when i start brandishing objects and raising my voice...

Erm...

My puny mind is struggling to understand what you're talking about...

you were saying GW isn't stupid enough to try it.... that they have done other stupid things, but that they can't be stupid enough to try this. I argued that that's a silly position to take, since their previous stupidity is a good indicator that they are capable of perpetrating many and more stupid acts, including this trade policy.

Ah, that makes more sense. Please forgive my thickness.

The question is, who is actually behind this idiocy? The shareholders? Kirby (The chairman, not the cute pink omnivorous marshmallow blob thingy)? Some random marketing douchebag?

Mostly kirby, he owns 51% of the shares, is both CEO and chairman of the board (which shouldnt happen as they are meant to control each other) and managed to give himself a 20% pay increase last year. He gets a pay out of 1.4 million every time they pay dividends.

He is going to bail out in a golden parachute once his shares hit a certain point, as he is very close to retiring. Whether or not the company keeps going in the same direciton post kirby is anyones guess.

Someone shoot him, get Rick Priestly in charge. If we can get rid of Kirby before he drives our beloved Games Workshop utterly into the ground, then there may be hope.

I fear the days of "convenient paint applicator sachets" may soon be upon us.

 Squigsquasher wrote:
Someone shoot him, get Rick Priestly in charge. If we can get rid of Kirby before he drives our beloved Games Workshop utterly into the ground, then there may be hope.

I fear the days of "convenient paint applicator sachets" may soon be upon us.

GoA, that is all. Not totally Ricks fault but maybe he's not the best choice to head a design department at the moment.

And Rick hasnt worked for the company for a few years now (see sig)

I know that, which is a damn shame.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Mostly kirby, he owns 51% of the shares, is both CEO and chairman of the board (which shouldnt happen as they are meant to control each other) and managed to give himself a 20% pay increase last year. He gets a pay out of 1.4 million every time they pay dividends.

He is going to bail out in a golden parachute once his shares hit a certain point, as he is very close to retiring. Whether or not the company keeps going in the same direciton post kirby is anyones guess.

Are you sure, I thought he only owned about 8% of the shares but was part of a group that controlled 51%????

 Ravenous D wrote:
Mostly kirby, he owns 51% of the shares, is both CEO and chairman of the board (which shouldnt happen as they are meant to control each other) and managed to give himself a 20% pay increase last year. He gets a pay out of 1.4 million every time they pay dividends.

He is going to bail out in a golden parachute once his shares hit a certain point, as he is very close to retiring. Whether or not the company keeps going in the same direciton post kirby is anyones guess.

Not sure if serious....

He owns slightly less of the company and makes slightly less in dividend payments.
http://investor.games-workshop.com/shareholder-statistics/

As for blind faith in Rick Priestly, he was in charge of the original the Warhammer MMO. The one by Climax , not Mythic. At least Rick claims to have been in charge of the project when he was interviewed on D6 Generation.