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Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
He's best left on the shelf.

I think you've made it pretty clear you don't like the unit. You may wish to move onto another thread at this time and discuss a unit you actually do like...

Oh no I like Kharn alot, and I like CC, but he's definitely not abusable in the way the OP thinks.

LOL Kharne plus 35 cultists infiltrating and then Lucius plus 35 cultists infiltrating... Hope you roll a 3 on Warlord traits... two units of 37 wounds with lots of attacks and fearless...

DAaddict wrote:
LOL Kharne plus 35 cultists infiltrating and then Lucius plus 35 cultists infiltrating... Hope you roll a 3 on Warlord traits... two units of 37 wounds with lots of attacks and fearless...

I think you meant huron and even with 3s you can't infiltrate both units, 1 infiltrate for kharn, 1 for the cultists, 1 for huron, you have one unit of cultists left behind

 Lord Yayula wrote:

DAaddict wrote:
LOL Kharne plus 35 cultists infiltrating and then Lucius plus 35 cultists infiltrating... Hope you roll a 3 on Warlord traits... two units of 37 wounds with lots of attacks and fearless...

I think you meant huron and even with 3s you can't infiltrate both units, 1 infiltrate for kharn, 1 for the cultists, 1 for huron, you have one unit of cultists left behind

ICs confer infiltrate to the unit they join I believe.

 Exergy wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:

DAaddict wrote:
LOL Kharne plus 35 cultists infiltrating and then Lucius plus 35 cultists infiltrating... Hope you roll a 3 on Warlord traits... two units of 37 wounds with lots of attacks and fearless...

I think you meant huron and even with 3s you can't infiltrate both units, 1 infiltrate for kharn, 1 for the cultists, 1 for huron, you have one unit of cultists left behind

ICs confer infiltrate to the unit they join I believe.

Correct.

 Exergy wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:

DAaddict wrote:
LOL Kharne plus 35 cultists infiltrating and then Lucius plus 35 cultists infiltrating... Hope you roll a 3 on Warlord traits... two units of 37 wounds with lots of attacks and fearless...

I think you meant huron and even with 3s you can't infiltrate both units, 1 infiltrate for kharn, 1 for the cultists, 1 for huron, you have one unit of cultists left behind

ICs confer infiltrate to the unit they join I believe.

Correct an IC with Infiltrate confers the ability to the squad but a non-infiltrating IC is specifically forbidden to join an infiltrating unit during deployment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But you are right, seeing Kharn and Lucius both have a pre-defined Warlord trait. I have a choice of an un-named Lord or Sorcerer, Fabius or Demon Prince and hoping to roll a 3 or Huron or Ahriman...

DAaddict wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:

DAaddict wrote:
LOL Kharne plus 35 cultists infiltrating and then Lucius plus 35 cultists infiltrating... Hope you roll a 3 on Warlord traits... two units of 37 wounds with lots of attacks and fearless...

I think you meant huron and even with 3s you can't infiltrate both units, 1 infiltrate for kharn, 1 for the cultists, 1 for huron, you have one unit of cultists left behind

ICs confer infiltrate to the unit they join I believe.

Correct an IC with Infiltrate confers the ability to the squad but a non-infiltrating IC is specifically forbidden to join an infiltrating unit during deployment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But you are right, seeing Kharn and Lucius both have a pre-defined Warlord trait. I have a choice of an un-named Lord or Sorcerer, Fabius or Demon Prince and hoping to roll a 3 or Huron or Ahriman...

IC with infiltrate do confer the ability to the squad however you can only join them either by being left on reserves or by placing them within an already deployed squad. If your IC has infiltrate it doesn't matter since you will be joining a unit that is already deployed within your deployment zone. When the IC and the unit are left on reserves they join and therefore have infiltrate which allows them to outflank. So if you want to deploy an IC AND a unit beyond your deployment zone you need to give infiltration to both units.

Ahh good point.

 minigun762 wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
He's best left on the shelf.

I don't think it's that bad. After Huron, I'd say he's the best special character. Typhus is viable more because of zombies than anything specific to him.

Kharn is not competitive, but he isn't bad. he certainly isn't abuse-able.

Yeah I'm not using him in tourneys or anything, just playing with my buds. He's Kharn, I want my opponent to see him with his axe in their face.

Should I put him in a land raider with a bunch of other bezerkers in raiders? 60 bezerkers in sounds fun.

 Lord Yayula wrote:

DAaddict wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:

DAaddict wrote:
LOL Kharne plus 35 cultists infiltrating and then Lucius plus 35 cultists infiltrating... Hope you roll a 3 on Warlord traits... two units of 37 wounds with lots of attacks and fearless...

I think you meant huron and even with 3s you can't infiltrate both units, 1 infiltrate for kharn, 1 for the cultists, 1 for huron, you have one unit of cultists left behind

ICs confer infiltrate to the unit they join I believe.

Correct an IC with Infiltrate confers the ability to the squad but a non-infiltrating IC is specifically forbidden to join an infiltrating unit during deployment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But you are right, seeing Kharn and Lucius both have a pre-defined Warlord trait. I have a choice of an un-named Lord or Sorcerer, Fabius or Demon Prince and hoping to roll a 3 or Huron or Ahriman...

IC with infiltrate do confer the ability to the squad however you can only join them either by being left on reserves or by placing them within an already deployed squad. If your IC has infiltrate it doesn't matter since you will be joining a unit that is already deployed within your deployment zone. When the IC and the unit are left on reserves they join and therefore have infiltrate which allows them to outflank. So if you want to deploy an IC AND a unit beyond your deployment zone you need to give infiltration to both units.

If IC can't join squads before deployment to confer infiltrate, then what's the point of infiltrate having the ability to confer itself to a squad? Not every ability confers to a joined unit, so the sheer fact that infiltrate does say it confers should make it pretty clear that you can do it.

I can see how someone would try to argue it as RAW, but it's not HIWPI, nor anyone at the flgs I frequent, or any of the usual people I regularly play.

 BarBoBot wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:

DAaddict wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:

DAaddict wrote:
LOL Kharne plus 35 cultists infiltrating and then Lucius plus 35 cultists infiltrating... Hope you roll a 3 on Warlord traits... two units of 37 wounds with lots of attacks and fearless...

I think you meant huron and even with 3s you can't infiltrate both units, 1 infiltrate for kharn, 1 for the cultists, 1 for huron, you have one unit of cultists left behind

ICs confer infiltrate to the unit they join I believe.

Correct an IC with Infiltrate confers the ability to the squad but a non-infiltrating IC is specifically forbidden to join an infiltrating unit during deployment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But you are right, seeing Kharn and Lucius both have a pre-defined Warlord trait. I have a choice of an un-named Lord or Sorcerer, Fabius or Demon Prince and hoping to roll a 3 or Huron or Ahriman...

IC with infiltrate do confer the ability to the squad however you can only join them either by being left on reserves or by placing them within an already deployed squad. If your IC has infiltrate it doesn't matter since you will be joining a unit that is already deployed within your deployment zone. When the IC and the unit are left on reserves they join and therefore have infiltrate which allows them to outflank. So if you want to deploy an IC AND a unit beyond your deployment zone you need to give infiltration to both units.

If IC can't join squads before deployment to confer infiltrate, then what's the point of infiltrate having the ability to confer itself to a squad? Not every ability confers to a joined unit, so the sheer fact that infiltrate does say it confers should make it pretty clear that you can do it.

Giving the ability to outflank to a unit that can't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And there isn't really much to argue that's the way it is stated on the BRB. It's just the way it is, if you don't like the rules sure you can ignore some, but that won't change the fact that it works that way.

I am confident that the intent is to confer. That is my opinion on the matter. I conceded that there is a RAW case against it, but RAW is not always right.

Let's not forget how many people pointed to the order of operations for destroyed flyers and said necron units in transports take hits when the transport dies. RAW was cut and dry, fluff completely contradicted it. The writers intent overruled it. How about the RAW that said characters use the units majority toughness for all combat including challenges, creating scenarios where 2 identicle IC's in a challenge have a different toughness because of the guys watching them fight. It was overturned. It's literally why we have FAQ's.

If you think there is no room for discussion on this matter, and that I'm just 1 random person who "ignores the rules" I suggest making a thread with a HIWPI poll and we can go from there.

 BarBoBot wrote:
I am confident that the intent is to confer. That is my opinion on the matter. I conceded that there is a RAW case against it, but RAW is not always right.

Let's not forget how many people pointed to the order of operations for destroyed flyers and said necron units in transports take hits when the transport dies. RAW was cut and dry, fluff completely contradicted it. The writers intent overruled it. How about the RAW that said characters use the units majority toughness for all combat including challenges, creating scenarios where 2 identicle IC's in a challenge have a different toughness because of the guys watching them fight. It was overturned. It's literally why we have FAQ's.

If you think there is no room for discussion on this matter, and that I'm just 1 random person who "ignores the rules" I suggest making a thread with a HIWPI poll and we can go from there.

The rules for Infiltrate only require 1 model to have it. So (for example) a squad of Striking Scorpions with an Exarch and Shadowstrike (which gives Infiltrate) would be able to. The problem is when you have an IC who has a special ability that allows the model and his unit to Infiltrate. I'm personally fine with allowing an IC to Infiltrate unit without the special rule. Of course I'm also perfectly fine allowing Wraithguard and Wraithlords to shoot/charge and allowing vehicles to take Invulnerable saves.

I see what you did there!

 Exergy wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Kharne is a beast and should only run into problems if he encounters characters he cannot beat in a challenge such as Draigo, Logan, other cc beasties with a 3++, Abby, a 2++ DE character, and a few others.

an archon probably doesnt need his 2++, he will kill kharne before he can strike at init 7.

That's a pretty big generalization... If the Archon has a Huskblade, maybe. If he has already trapped a soul, certainly. But in any other case, I'd say the Archon would really, really need his Shadowfield to survive Kharn's attacks, especially if Kharn got the charge.

 Exergy wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
He's best left on the shelf.

I don't think it's that bad. After Huron, I'd say he's the best special character. Typhus is viable more because of zombies than anything specific to him.

Kharn is not competitive, but he isn't bad. he certainly isn't abuse-able.

People say the same thing about Njal...except that Tony guy who seems to win everywhere he shows up.

People really need to stop using the term "non competitive" when they really mean "I'm no smart enough and or too lazy to know how to use it properly."

So infiltrate confers to the units dedicated transport, so by what people are saying you can't deploy your infiltrated unit in its dedicated transport. We all know that you absolutely can do this, so an infiltrating IC can join>confer>deploy with a unit without it. Ipso facto, an IC can use 1 of your d3 points to Join terminators>confer>be in landraider(Dedicated for termies)>confer>deploy.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
He's best left on the shelf.

I don't think it's that bad. After Huron, I'd say he's the best special character. Typhus is viable more because of zombies than anything specific to him.

Kharn is not competitive, but he isn't bad. he certainly isn't abuse-able.

People say the same thing about Njal...except that Tony guy who seems to win everywhere he shows up.

People really need to stop using the term "non competitive" when they really mean "I'm no smart enough and or too lazy to know how to use it properly."

I've heard that about both pretty often, but I've always had both special characters earn back their points and then some.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Kharn is not competitive, but he isn't bad. he certainly isn't abuse-able.

People say the same thing about Njal...except that Tony guy who seems to win everywhere he shows up.

Do people really say that about Njal though? Who are these people, so I can either ignore them, or teach them why they are incorrect.

 Goat wrote:
So infiltrate confers to the units dedicated transport, so by what people are saying you can't deploy your infiltrated unit in its dedicated transport. We all know that you absolutely can do this, so an infiltrating IC can join>confer>deploy with a unit without it. Ipso facto, an IC can use 1 of your d3 points to Join terminators>confer>be in landraider(Dedicated for termies)>confer>deploy.

A dedicated transport is deployed as part of the unit, an IC isn't. So you would deploy it after deploying the non-infiltrate unit. And this is getting completely off-topic when there are several discussions related to this in YMDC.

Considering Shrike has always been played by pretty much everyone as being allowed to confer Infiltrate, I'd say Huron/Ahriman is the exact same case.

 Lord Yayula wrote:

 Goat wrote:
So infiltrate confers to the units dedicated transport, so by what people are saying you can't deploy your infiltrated unit in its dedicated transport. We all know that you absolutely can do this, so an infiltrating IC can join>confer>deploy with a unit without it. Ipso facto, an IC can use 1 of your d3 points to Join terminators>confer>be in landraider(Dedicated for termies)>confer>deploy.

A dedicated transport is deployed as part of the unit, an IC isn't. So you would deploy it after deploying the non-infiltrate unit. And this is getting completely off-topic when there are several discussions related to this in YMDC.

So do you follow such strict RAW in every case?

Can models without "eyes" draw line of sight?

Do DE vehicle that have flicker fields get to use the invulnerable save since vehicle take no wounds?

Did the missing comma between "relentless" and "smash" in the flying monstrous creature rules mean that it has an ability called "relentless smash" and not "relentless, smash"?

Did you believe that the "majority toughness" rule applied to challenges?

RAW is not infallible. There are FAQ's for a reason. Infiltrate confers to units. It's common sense to think that you can actually... you know.... USE the ability.

 BarBoBot wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:

 Goat wrote:
So infiltrate confers to the units dedicated transport, so by what people are saying you can't deploy your infiltrated unit in its dedicated transport. We all know that you absolutely can do this, so an infiltrating IC can join>confer>deploy with a unit without it. Ipso facto, an IC can use 1 of your d3 points to Join terminators>confer>be in landraider(Dedicated for termies)>confer>deploy.

A dedicated transport is deployed as part of the unit, an IC isn't. So you would deploy it after deploying the non-infiltrate unit. And this is getting completely off-topic when there are several discussions related to this in YMDC.

So do you follow such strict RAW in every case?

Can models without "eyes" draw line of sight?

Do DE vehicle that have flicker fields get to use the invulnerable save since vehicle take no wounds?

Did the missing comma between "relentless" and "smash" in the flying monstrous creature rules mean that it has an ability called "relentless smash" and not "relentless, smash"?

Did you believe that the "majority toughness" rule applied to challenges?

RAW is not infallible. There are FAQ's for a reason. Infiltrate confers to units. It's common sense to think that you can actually... you know.... USE the ability.

I actually rarely use strict RAW, but an infiltrate IC can still USE infiltrate by giving outflank to a unit that don't have it. How can you be sure it isn't how GW intended?, the rule still works, still gives you an advantage, but you wan't it to make more out of it which has been passed through 2 BRB FAQ's and didn't get addressed which would even lead me to believe GW is happy with how it written and works.

So models with no eyes can't shoot because GW didn't FAQ it?

 BarBoBot wrote:
So models with no eyes can't shoot because GW didn't FAQ it?

Again, I don't play strictly RAW, models with eyes can shoot, vehicles get invul save and all those rules you are mentioning above, BUT this rule actually does something, why is it so hard to accept that it only confers outflank to a unit without infiltration?, The rule isn't exclusively for ICs, there are units that have it as well, the fact that whenever you get it as a IC doesn't give you the full rule but the outflank part seems to be ok, maybe that's how GW intends it to be.. what if GW line of think is: "maybe it's to good and can lead to some abuse due to the many ICs that are out there and the many that are to come, maybe we should give it a lesser effect on units joined by e IC with it"

The rules from vehicles saves, LoS without eyes and all the related are clearly wrong cause that wouldn't make sense at all, an IC giving outflank to a unit that doesn't does make sense as you don't get the full effect of infiltrate on a regular unit but a benefit of some kind.

You are treating the rule as if it didn't give any benefit to a unit and that it is useless when it's clearly not the case, you only ASSUME that it must be a mistake even thou it is clearly written, just like I can assume fear does affect ATSKNF units since if it doesn't is useless because it only affects models which already have low WS, it obviously wasn't the GW intention even though it is written as so in the BRB.

What make your interpretation more valid than mine?

All you can point to is RAW, and RAW has changed many time with similar issues.

Your whole arguement hinges on a timing issue.

RAW timing issues have been FAQ'd when it came to night scythe passengers taking hits even though it was plain as day written that hits are taken before placing models.

A wraith with whipcoils reduces initiative of enemy models in base contact. It had to be FAQ'd that models who made it into base contact during pile in moves were not affected that round of combat even though it clearly reads that models in base contact are initiative 1.

Going by your reasoning, these FAQ's were not needed at all, yet they are game changers.

 BarBoBot wrote:
What make your interpretation more valid than mine?

Nothing... that's the whole point I can't be sure that is the way it was meant to be written nor can you, but that is how it is written, which isn't a crazy interpretation like your eyes example.

Going by your reasoning, these FAQ's were not needed at all, yet they are game changers.

Going by my reasoning they were needed but you couldn't just assume that is how it was meant to be until it came out, meanwhile playing it the more closer to the rules as possible.

The heldrake arc is a perfect example, it is a flying beast thingy with a huge neck and limiting his arc to 45° as well as his LoS capabilities didn't seem right still due to the lack of a FAQ explicitly allowing it to, I like many others played by the 45° arc until the FAQ came out because that was the best you could do without going unto well i think this thing should be better so I'm gonna play it like this just because I want to.

Your now saying that your opinion holds no more weight than mine, but your initial response was to tell me I'm "ignoring the rules"

What it comes down to is that your treating this as though it's as simple as 1+1=2 when the only evidence to prove your case is a issue of timing. Having now shown that GW has in fact FAQ'd against timing issues preventing abilities from working in pervious rulings, I'm content leaving it at that and playing it how literally everyone I have played with plays the rule until such a time that GW FAQ's it.

Just like we all do with vehicles taking invuls and eye-less models shooting.