Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I have returned from my FLGS today with yet another loss under my belt. I started playing at the end of 5th, and won the majority of my games, but now in sixth I think i have won 2 out of about 10.

Let me start by saying that I play Codex Marines. The losses are really getting to me now, and I'm not sure what to do. I've tried listening to anybody who will give me advice at the store, and its not much help. I don't have any flyers, and dont have much of a way to deal AIR. Games where I'm playing an all ground army against my own tend to be much closer, but still generally end with a loss.

I'm not sure if my lists are too weighted in what worked for me in 5th, that doesnt work now, or if it's something else. I think I need a new list but i'm not really sure where to start. I can post my current models, or the last list I used if that would be helpful. Looking for any advice now really...

Thanks in advance.

I can post my current models, or the last list I used if that would be helpful.

Please do.


The best way to deal with flyers is to have a lot of shooting. Preferably twin-linked. But even just regular shooting can still down a flyer.

Snap Shots vs regular shots for a BS4 model is only a 75% reduction in the average number of hits. Not as horrible as it seems at first.

6th edition in general is slightly favorable to a shooting army. So investing in more of that would be a good idea.

SM can be a hard army to master, I have to say. I know it's kind of the "go to" army for beginners, but right now, I think SM aren't very forgiving.

One of my favorite go to units is the rifleman dread.Two TLAC may not be the best anti flier in the game, but at 48" range, and strength 7, you have a decent chance of putting a HP on an AV 12 flier. If you take two and they are both in range, that is 8 twin linked shots, even needing 6s, that's 16 chances at a 6 (with twin linked), you should roll 2-3. 5+ to glance av 12 also isn't great, but for around 125 points (don't remember exactly), they can at least do something. And, is isn't like they aren't contributing for the turns the flies aren't on the table. Barring taking your own fliers, I find the rifleman dread a good place to start for a TAC list that wants to have at least some chance at dealing with fliers.
Heck even without fliers factoring in, the rifleman dread can deal with AV 12 or less. I like to also pop skimmers with them, or use them to put wounds on infantry targets of opportunity.

I love them, but YMMV

I found a couple of units from the previous edition got better with the transition. The Aegis Defense Line was one of the best purchases I've made for my army, and with Telion behind the trigger of the big gun, it only gets better. Scouts in the defense line do really well, and the precision fire from their rifles is a significant bennie now, given the new way that wound allocation works.

I play Salamanders, and I find that Vulkan's perks give me significant gains against flyers. (I've often remarked that 'twin-linked snapshots' should be a Campbell's soup flavor, since they're mmm-mmm good.)

I don't know how much of a change you are willing to do to your army, but Drop Pods armies have become much better since 6th came out. They didn't so much get better, as the ancillary rules (the fragility of enemy vehicles, the larger deployment area from a vehicle, overwatch) made them more useful. I played Pods all through fifth, and I can attest that I saw a marked change in my game since sixth dropped. If you aren't interested in them, I understand, but it's something to think about.

If flyers are a guaranteed thing at your local games, you might consider bringing an allied Hydra with you. (You can bring 1-3 in remarkably cheaply.) They don't do a whole lot for you against ground units (although their weapons are twin-linked, and can shoot skimmers normally regardless, so you might get some use out of them anyway) but, if you are facing aerial destruction in 90% of your games, they might be worth your time.

6th edition has been difficult for quite a few players so dont get too discouraged.

What points level are you playing?

Do you have resources to buy additional models or do you need to find a way with what you have?

Are you playing missions or just going for killing stuff?

Is there enough terrain on the board?

Aside from list building, one thing I struggled with (and still do sometimes) is playing for the mission. I tend to get distracted by something, or thinking about playing a certain way, and end up shooting myself in the foot. For instance, I will not think about grabbing an objective until turn 4, and by that time its too late. Playing for the mission that is something that you can really focus on, that will help improve your games immensely.

Thanks for the advice guys. I wouldn't mind adding some new stuff, but I don't really have the cash to add anything big at the moment. We roll for objectives/deployment/etc. There is usually decent terrain, but I tend to get stuck with the bad side (maybe i'm makin excuses, but my army really needs to hide behind stuff...)
I tend to play at 1500, and most people at my LGS are playing chaos right now, theres a few other armies but i havent played them yet. The list I tend to run is some variation of this:

-HQ-
Librarian

-Troops-
Tac Squad
10 man, rhino
Tac Squad
10 man, razorback
Scouts
10 man, snipers, ml, telion

-Heavy-
Predator
ac,hbs
Predator
ac, hbs

-Fast-
2x Landspeeder
ML, HB

-Elite-
2x Dread
2xAC

Here's a list of my units:
30 tac marines
2 predators
5 shotgun scouts/ 5 ccw/ 5 bolters
1 landspeeder storm
Vindicator
Landraider Godhammer
5 assault termies
5 tac termies
10 assault marines
various devs
3 razorbacks/rhinos
3 landspeeders MM/HF
3 landspeeders ML/HB
1 drop pod
1 whirlwind
6 sternguard
1 ironclad
3 dread
1 captain on bike
5 bikes
1 attack bike/ MM
1 captain
1 commander
1 chaplain
1 chaplain w/ term
1 librarian w/ term
1 motf

The ratio in which I win or lose has been anchored by the number of troops and troop choices I fill out.

The only game that does not lend itself to this are the kill point games...

If you can go 5 tac squads (cheap builds), 1 scout squad, then in any objective game combat squad them. Run rhinos, Razorbacks, whatever you can to protect them cheaply.

The quad gun and defense line are worth their weight.

It would ditch the preds...drop pod two combat squads in...I would teleport 5 termies in as a distraction, while everything else concentrates on objectives. Leave them split up for more flexibility, with a librarian, that's around 1,500 pts

Dakka Predators are actually a good way to add dirt cheap fire power with pretty darn good durability to a list. Provided they keep the enemy at arms length.

Personally since 6th ed I've been running BAs and CSM:EC...

With the cultists and csm marine troop squads I've lost 1 game out of 12...when I stray from those lists, I do good to split games


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That loss was against orks ...where I was out-trooped

time to get a strom(raven/talon)

should be using more IG ally . two vendetta and some plasma vets would make the list run smoother.

Codex:SM has a hard time dealing with fliers. We can't put out a high volume of shots, nor can we get much access to skyfire. Aegis defense lines are the only real solid choice we have, followed maybe by rifleman dreads.

This may sound strange, but my way of dealing with fliers is to ignore them and try to deal as much damage as possible before they come in. If they have more than 2 or 3 fliers they will have a lot of points tied up in reserves. If possible I would try to take a unit of sternguard with combi meltas and plasmas to alpha strike in and take out 2 vital enemy targets. The rest of your army should run up the field and try and take objectives (hopefully placed in cover, so you can hunker down when the fliers eventually come in) and deal as much damage as possible to the enemy.

My philosophy is that air support isn't much use if there isn't anything left to support.

That said, fliers are still kings of 6th edition right now and there's not much codex space marines can do about it. I would try to not let them get you too flustered and focus on the opponents ground troops.

Your list looks okay to me, maybe the dice gods just hate you or something. Best of luck to you!

Start taking and using the bikes. This'd be a good tip anyway, but especially if you usually have problems with terrain. They provide their own cover saves AND they're T5 to boot.

 cyorysh wrote:
Codex:SM has a hard time dealing with fliers. We can't put out a high volume of shots, nor can we get much access to skyfire. Aegis defense lines are the only real solid choice we have, followed maybe by rifleman dreads.

Wait wait, you choose to ignore both the stormtalon and storm raven? both are beast at killing air stuff..

phatonic wrote:

 cyorysh wrote:
Codex:SM has a hard time dealing with fliers. We can't put out a high volume of shots, nor can we get much access to skyfire. Aegis defense lines are the only real solid choice we have, followed maybe by rifleman dreads.

Wait wait, you choose to ignore both the stormtalon and storm raven? both are beast at killing air stuff..

I was going to say the same thing. You have access to the toughest and one of the greatest flyers in the game and your saying you have a hard time dealing with air? compared to who? eldar? a twin linked multi melta, twin linked lascannon and missiles AND PotMS so you can reliably kill two flyers per turn. Yeah hard time dealing with flyers.

To the OP. theres lots wrong with your list in the new meta. Your dakka count is low for one. a dev squad with HBs and use the libby for prescience to twin link all that good shooting. or missile launcher devs (im sure you got a few of those) Rhinos hurt more than help now. Razorbacks are alright (how you run them anyways) but its an easy kill point to someone shooting str 8 blasts everywhere. Preds are good. behind an aegis even better. You have to think more about how you build your list and how to synergize it. Your scout squad is stellar though.

I see a lot of this "I hate 6th because my list doesn't work anymore" threads. My orks went from battlewagon/kanwalls/sluggachoppa boyz to shoota boyz and bikers with dakka jets. and lots of lootas. The new edition seen a lot of changes to a lot of peoples armies and not just yours. Its time to adapt to the change and find new ways to outwit our opponents. Your codex doesn't suck at all. on the contrary it has a lot of good options/allies availible to it. I Know you said you dont have much cash to spend, and thats very understandable. Ask for opponents to let you proxy some units you may/may not plan to buy later. It wouldn't be GW if they didnt force you to look at models that were once a never include (which now considered and auto include) and now your auto includes go on the shelf.

@ Paitryn Thank you for the advice. I just want to add that I don't think I said anywhere in this topic that I hated the codex, and that the fault lay anywhere outside of myself.

My last game was against 2 Helldrakes, and it was crushing.... With warlord traits and 2 infiltrating obliterater squads I got demolished, it was a rather upsetting.

If I were to swap out my speeders for a stormraven, would my list be better? I can focus on getting one, or possibly a defense line instead, but it will probably be a while before I can get both. I'm sure there are units that would improve my list, but I was hoping to find a way to make what I had work... at least until I can get one of those units.

Honestly no one wants to play against a list with 2 Heldrakes and 2 Infiltrating Obliterators. Don't feel bad about losing that one.

If I had to choose between a Stormraven and an Aegis Defense Line for your collection I would go with the Stormraven. It adds a lot of tactical flexibility to your army, especially since you have no fliers at the moment.

Good luck in your next game.

You get what you pay for, the Stormraven is indeed a powerful vehicle, its got the best armor for a Flyer out there, lots of good weapon options, ignores Melta, and has PotMS to boot.

I think the Castus assault ram has more armor than the Storm Raven. It's front armor is 13

Haha yea, I wouldn't mind a Caestus... That thing is crazy sauce. But I think the stormraven will be my next purchase (Side Note: Anybody looking to get rid of a Stormraven?).

Is there anything wrong with the list I posted though? Would anybody recommend a different list? Or is it just something regarding my tactics.

 AtariAssasin wrote:
So I have returned from my FLGS today with yet another loss under my belt. I started playing at the end of 5th, and won the majority of my games, but now in sixth I think i have won 2 out of about 10.

Let me start by saying that I play Codex Marines. The losses are really getting to me now, and I'm not sure what to do. I've tried listening to anybody who will give me advice at the store, and its not much help. I don't have any flyers, and dont have much of a way to deal AIR. Games where I'm playing an all ground army against my own tend to be much closer, but still generally end with a loss.

I'm not sure if my lists are too weighted in what worked for me in 5th, that doesnt work now, or if it's something else. I think I need a new list but i'm not really sure where to start. I can post my current models, or the last list I used if that would be helpful. Looking for any advice now really...

Thanks in advance.

Quad-gun. Aegis Defense Line. Stormtalon. Done.

Paitryn wrote:
To the OP. theres lots wrong with your list in the new meta. Your dakka count is low for one. a dev squad with HBs and use the libby for prescience to twin link all that good shooting. or missile launcher devs (im sure you got a few of those) Rhinos hurt more than help now. Razorbacks are alright (how you run them anyways) but its an easy kill point to someone shooting str 8 blasts everywhere. Preds are good. behind an aegis even better. You have to think more about how you build your list and how to synergize it. Your scout squad is stellar though.

C:SM do not have access to Divination if I'm not mistaken.

 AtariAssasin wrote:
@ Paitryn Thank you for the advice. I just want to add that I don't think I said anywhere in this topic that I hated the codex, and that the fault lay anywhere outside of myself.

My last game was against 2 Helldrakes, and it was crushing.... With warlord traits and 2 infiltrating obliterater squads I got demolished, it was a rather upsetting.

If I were to swap out my speeders for a stormraven, would my list be better? I can focus on getting one, or possibly a defense line instead, but it will probably be a while before I can get both. I'm sure there are units that would improve my list, but I was hoping to find a way to make what I had work... at least until I can get one of those units.

I personally think the Stormraven's too expensive for what you get. I'd much rather take 2 Stormtalons. Not only are they just over 1/2 the cost of a single Stormraven, they're less than half the cost $$$-wise.

My other recommendation would be to invest in a Thunderfire Cannon. You can scratch-build one (or, better yet, 2!) for under $20. These things are brutal in 6th, they pump out so much dakka that they're a threat to hordes and light armour.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a suggested list:

HQ
Librarian

TROOPS
5x Scouts (Telion)
10x Tactical Marines (Lascannon, Plasma Gun, Sergeant with Combi-plasma, Rhino)
10x Tactical Marines (Lascannon, Plasma Gun, Sergeant with Combi-plasma, Rhino)
10x Tactical Marines (Lascannon, Plasma Gun, Sergeant with Combi-plasma, Rhino)

FAST ATTACK
Stormtalon (Skyhammer Missiles)
Stormtalon (Skyhammer Missiles)

HEAVY SUPPORT
Thunderfire Cannon
Thunderfire Cannon

FORTIFICATION
Aegis Defense Line (Quad Gun)

 AtariAssasin wrote:
Haha yea, I wouldn't mind a Caestus... That thing is crazy sauce. But I think the stormraven will be my next purchase (Side Note: Anybody looking to get rid of a Stormraven?).

Is there anything wrong with the list I posted though? Would anybody recommend a different list? Or is it just something regarding my tactics.

You list looks to be light on anti-tank fire. Other then that, it seems a fine TAC list.

When 6th came out, my list of things to get consisted of Talion, an ADL, and a storm talon. I'd probably go with a raven these days, but mostly because I use my HS slot less then my FA.

Paitryn wrote:
Preds are good. behind an aegis even better

I hate putting my Preds behing Aegis these days. I mean, it's almost mandatory so that they don't blow up in turn 1, but basically your opponent gets the same save as you do against your sponson weapons, because they're at low height and thus the damn Aegis obscures the enemy. Even infantry has this problem, since apparently RAW the slit sections still can give your enemy cover even if you are in base contact with them Basically the only units not being hampered by your own defense line to at least some extent are ones that only have weapons up high - say, a Leman Russ with Battle Cannon - or ones that shoot indirectly or ignore cover.

Since my only barrage units are a Whirlwind (which honestly won't see much use since I mostly play BT and even when playing SM it can't be squadroned, and heavy slots are too precious to be used up by a single one) and a Manticore (only used as allies in large games), the Aegis is close to getting thrown at the nearest wall

Thanks again for the advice guys, although now I might feel worse off knowing it's not my list, and only my gameplay that is at fault....

So if it's me and not my list then, what am I doing wrong?
I tend to play more of a gunline, and when I move up my units just get blown up before they can do much. So I tend to stay behind cover and not worry about objectives until the last few rounds. In hindsight, it seems I tend to lost objective games by a point or two, and the end of the game is often pushed up a round or two, so i'm scrambling to grab an objective and i haven't had time to shoot off all of my opponents units yet, but generally I feel like I'm in pretty good shape.

What are your tactical squads armed with?

Tac squad weapon upgrades are dirt cheap so its a shame not to take them.



I wrote a couple articles about running a Space Marine Gunline in 5th edition. The general principals should still be sound, and may have actually improved with age due to 6th being a shooty edition.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/unit_choices_for_a_Space_marine_gunline

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Tactics_for_a_Space_Marine_Gunline_by_Grey_Templar