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Based on my last game (1000 or 1500 pts (forget which) Nids vs Orkz) I would have to give it to Nids. At the end of Turn 6 he had a battlewagon, 5 lootaz and 10 boyz. I had lost...some spawned Termagants and I had more approaching.

Xyptc wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
Yeah, I don't recall that anywhere. I remember an article talking about the sheer volume of material removed from a planet is inconceivable considering it's not seen anywhere after consumption (not even an appreciable increase in ships), but not that the warp is used. There was no theory in the article on how it was done.

A better theory would be a 'tendril' is like a line of ants - they move forward to planets to remove food, then have large ships ferry it back to a primary collecting point. Maybe this 'main' fleet that's sitting outside the galaxy.

Which if anything is only even more terrifying. If the main "body" of the Tyranid race is currently outside the galaxy (well, it's confirmed that it is) but more importantly intends to stay outside the galaxy and simply grapple with our worlds with extended tendrils and then pull its winnings back out of reach then we've all got big problems because the bulk of our enemy will be completely out of our reach, and able to use the mass it has claimed to throw an endless swarm at us until all resistance is crushed.

The only space-faring race that could conceivably challenge such a distant and powerful threat would presumably be the Necrons...

Might be right here,... Nids tend to avoid Necrons because there is no biomass to gain.. In an all out fight i would not know but Necrons might be able to win.. they disintatragte on atomic lvls with their gauss rifles,.. so i assume biomass would not be retrievable,.. though nids might be able to harvest on microscopic lvls i dont know...

''On topic''

ORK POWAH!!!

Havent read about orks surviving decapitation,.. i have read though that orks shot in the head tend to stand up after a while,.. if they are lucky.... But arent the orks using garguants and squiggoths? They should rival the Super dinosaurs of the Nid race

Ork fighta-bommas are often open-window affair, and they still fly in space.

 -Loki- wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Xyptc wrote:

 kinratha wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
They could likely survive it for a duration, but not indefinitely.

They are also capable of surviving full decapitation, so again, they trump the tyranids.

What ork had his head cut off and continue to fight?

Let's further enhance this question; what Ork had its head cut off and continued to fight effectively?

Ere We Go, Page 19: 'Doc's Suprise': Head Grafting/Limb Grafting.

"Ork physiology is so remarkable that the brain in a detached head can survive for quite some time."

"Attached two heads to each of the few bodies... Minor modifications to the nervous system enabled each head to control half of the body."

"Further 'eksperimentin' on blast-damaged orks led to techniques of grafting extra arms onto the body at the same time as the head graft. This meant that a multiple armed Ork could handle and fire a pair of shoulder weapons with full accuracy."

Can you actually answer the question?

That is about the brain surviving decapitation to be put on another body - which require a headless body to graft onto anyway. In the heat of battle, how is this meant to help? This isn't an Ork surviving decapitation while his body continues to fight. This isn't trumping anything - it's Orks having a funny science experiment.

Can you actually read the answer I gave?

You don't need a headless body, you can graft the head onto a complete ork and the new two headed ork can operate each half independently for tool use and killing capability. You can further graft on arms to use more weapons.

In citing this, I was further demonstrating the basic ork physiology, the basic rank and file ork boy's superiority over the rank and file termagant of the hive fleets. The Ork boy vs the Tyranid Termagant is what determines the battlefield victories. The Ork's capabilities utterly dominate the Termagant's.

Then add in the previously referenced resilience of Ork forces.

In the 'reality' of 40k, the nids will win as they are unified. The raised question was what would happen if the tyranids fought a unified ork race.

The answer is the bugs lose, badly.

Ork heads can survive separated from the body for 30 minutes.

That's plenty of time to finish the current fight and graft it on for the next one.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Ork heads can survive separated from the body for 30 minutes.

That's plenty of time to finish the current fight and graft it on for the next one.

The 'current fight' against Tyranids takes more than 30 minutes. Don't think of it like an actual 40k game. You're not going to be fighting off 10 Termagants when wait for another mycetic spore to come down. You're going to be getting swarmed by thousands. With thousands behind them, and thousands behind them.

Stopping to play doctor during that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Xyptc wrote:

 kinratha wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
They could likely survive it for a duration, but not indefinitely.

They are also capable of surviving full decapitation, so again, they trump the tyranids.

What ork had his head cut off and continue to fight?

Let's further enhance this question; what Ork had its head cut off and continued to fight effectively?

Ere We Go, Page 19: 'Doc's Suprise': Head Grafting/Limb Grafting.

"Ork physiology is so remarkable that the brain in a detached head can survive for quite some time."

"Attached two heads to each of the few bodies... Minor modifications to the nervous system enabled each head to control half of the body."

"Further 'eksperimentin' on blast-damaged orks led to techniques of grafting extra arms onto the body at the same time as the head graft. This meant that a multiple armed Ork could handle and fire a pair of shoulder weapons with full accuracy."

Can you actually answer the question?

That is about the brain surviving decapitation to be put on another body - which require a headless body to graft onto anyway. In the heat of battle, how is this meant to help? This isn't an Ork surviving decapitation while his body continues to fight. This isn't trumping anything - it's Orks having a funny science experiment.

Can you actually read the answer I gave?

You don't need a headless body, you can graft the head onto a complete ork and the new two headed ork can operate each half independently for tool use and killing capability. You can further graft on arms to use more weapons.

In citing this, I was further demonstrating the basic ork physiology, the basic rank and file ork boy's superiority over the rank and file termagant of the hive fleets. The Ork boy vs the Tyranid Termagant is what determines the battlefield victories. The Ork's capabilities utterly dominate the Termagant's.

Then add in the previously referenced resilience of Ork forces.

In the 'reality' of 40k, the nids will win as they are unified. The raised question was what would happen if the tyranids fought a unified ork race.

The answer is the bugs lose, badly.

Fair enough, though I still don't think you actually answered the question posed (when has an Ork ever continued to fight without its head).

As for whether the Orks unify - they haven't yet. And going by 'the biggest Ork beats down the rest to become Warlord', Even The Beast wasn't unifying all of the Orks, and he was melon-fething huge.

Like I said earlier - Orks winning if they are unified is a theory, because it's never happened. Tyranids winning because they are unified is an eventuality, because they always are, and always will be unified.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Ork heads can survive separated from the body for 30 minutes.

That's plenty of time to finish the current fight and graft it on for the next one.

The 'current fight' against Tyranids takes more than 30 minutes. Don't think of it like an actual 40k game. You're not going to be fighting off 10 Termagants when wait for another mycetic spore to come down. You're going to be getting swarmed by thousands. With thousands behind them, and thousands behind them.

Stopping to play doctor during that?

Dats wat da otha boyz be for! they charge forth while da dok patch da utha boyz up!

No, stop, its annoying. Especially for non native speakers.

Orks surviving decaps, could be propaganda, its in their codex, and its a general assumption that the 'dex is filled with it.

My stance on it is that.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Ork heads can survive separated from the body for 30 minutes.

That's plenty of time to finish the current fight and graft it on for the next one.

The 'current fight' against Tyranids takes more than 30 minutes. Don't think of it like an actual 40k game. You're not going to be fighting off 10 Termagants when wait for another mycetic spore to come down. You're going to be getting swarmed by thousands. With thousands behind them, and thousands behind them.

Stopping to play doctor during that?

I have no idea where '30 mins' comes from, the ork book I'm reading from, Ere We Go indicates the bodies and heads were recovered after a battle, still alive and able to take grafting. That would indicate far longer than 30 mins to me, more like several hours.

 -Loki- wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Xyptc wrote:

 kinratha wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
They could likely survive it for a duration, but not indefinitely.

They are also capable of surviving full decapitation, so again, they trump the tyranids.

What ork had his head cut off and continue to fight?

Let's further enhance this question; what Ork had its head cut off and continued to fight effectively?

Ere We Go, Page 19: 'Doc's Suprise': Head Grafting/Limb Grafting.

"Ork physiology is so remarkable that the brain in a detached head can survive for quite some time."

"Attached two heads to each of the few bodies... Minor modifications to the nervous system enabled each head to control half of the body."

"Further 'eksperimentin' on blast-damaged orks led to techniques of grafting extra arms onto the body at the same time as the head graft. This meant that a multiple armed Ork could handle and fire a pair of shoulder weapons with full accuracy."

Can you actually answer the question?

That is about the brain surviving decapitation to be put on another body - which require a headless body to graft onto anyway. In the heat of battle, how is this meant to help? This isn't an Ork surviving decapitation while his body continues to fight. This isn't trumping anything - it's Orks having a funny science experiment.

Can you actually read the answer I gave?

You don't need a headless body, you can graft the head onto a complete ork and the new two headed ork can operate each half independently for tool use and killing capability. You can further graft on arms to use more weapons.

In citing this, I was further demonstrating the basic ork physiology, the basic rank and file ork boy's superiority over the rank and file termagant of the hive fleets. The Ork boy vs the Tyranid Termagant is what determines the battlefield victories. The Ork's capabilities utterly dominate the Termagant's.

Then add in the previously referenced resilience of Ork forces.

In the 'reality' of 40k, the nids will win as they are unified. The raised question was what would happen if the tyranids fought a unified ork race.

The answer is the bugs lose, badly.

Fair enough, though I still don't think you actually answered the question posed (when has an Ork ever continued to fight without its head).

As for whether the Orks unify - they haven't yet. And going by 'the biggest Ork beats down the rest to become Warlord', Even The Beast wasn't unifying all of the Orks, and he was melon-fething huge.

Like I said earlier - Orks winning if they are unified is a theory, because it's never happened. Tyranids winning because they are unified is an eventuality, because they always are, and always will be unified.

It's all theory and conjecture, the actual size of the remaining hive fleets operating or in hibernation beyond the galactic rim has never been cited. The number of orks beyond the galactic rim has also never been cited. Both have been alluded to being vast and terrible, neither is every actually measured. We also have the hinted at 'other threat', a species or power that the tyranids are actually fleeing from...

With a slip of whimsy, the next ork codex could clearly state 'As Ghaz's victories continue, so too do the orks flock to his banner, on and on in a tide of unswerving loyalty and obedience to his banner, a waaagh to frighten the gods' and suddenly you have the potential background for a unified greenskin gestalt.

And your bug unity has already been threatened, hive fleets already turn on one another in the background, it's already been observed that splinters who've been travelling apart for a while will attack each other on sight, the winner absorbing the biomass of the losers, just as readily as ork warbosses waaaghs striking at each other... The victorious fleet might emerge with a greater stock of biomass option, but still, it will be weakened by the fighting for a while and in that, they are rendered as weak as any other, independent thinking species in the game.

Then we have the loss of warp movement from the tyranids, massively slowing their fleets movement, the now clearly stated hypermetabolism they must satiate on waking and their greatly weakened from one or two codices before. As I mentioned previously, this is intentional, as is the necron background nerfing, to allow Chaos back to being the biggest of the big bads.

 -Loki- wrote:

The aforementioned example of a ship exploding in an asteroid field which is then turned into a bunch of Roks, it's more likely sufficient Orks got clear in protective gear.

wait, are you serious? We are talking about the orks right? you know, the race that forgoes all safety purposes and tries to pile on as much weapons as possible. Their is no such thing as protective gear on any of their machines. I mean I made a thread awhile back asking if it is possible for orks to survive in space, almost all of them said yes, I even got a logical answer saying that it is indeed possible, he even listed(Kinda, been awhile) how their biology could indeed make it possible for them.

Let's further enhance this question; what Ork had its head cut off and continued to fight effectively?

Here, I will tell you of an ork that gets hit in the face by a bolter round, you know the rocket propelled grenades that space marines use. His name is Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka. You know the ork that is one of the greatest orks around.

Also in the Armageddon book, it gives a short explanation of why the black templar were crushing ork heads, because there had been accounts of orks, losing bodies, but their them coming back afterwords, or something along those lines.

So greatest ork survives a bolt to the face.

Doesn't mean all Orks can survive, or we'd bolting as fast as Usain Bolt right now.

 Bobthehero wrote:
So greatest ork survives a bolt to the face.

Doesn't mean all Orks can survive, or we'd bolting as fast as Usain Bolt right now.

I agree, but it does show that it is possible for an ork to survive a bolt to the face, and then still be a threat. I mean, really what more do you need? If an ork can survive a bolt to the face, isn't it probable for an ork to survive decapitation and still be a threat?

No, the bolt explodes on the face of the Ork, fails to penetrate the skin. Its not the same as: the Ork head is gone and there's no way for its body to be controlled.

willhman wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
So greatest ork survives a bolt to the face.

Doesn't mean all Orks can survive, or we'd bolting as fast as Usain Bolt right now.

I agree, but it does show that it is possible for an ork to survive a bolt to the face, and then still be a threat. I mean, really what more do you need? If an ork can survive a bolt to the face, isn't it probable for an ork to survive decapitation and still be a threat?

The 4th edition Tyranid codex describes a Carnifex surviving Exterminatus by Cyclonic torpedoes, and sitting on the now atmosphere-less rock regenerating. it was awoken by an Adeptus Mechanicus Explorator team who then had to finish it.

Have any Orks survived Exterminatus by Cyclonic torpedo? Because if they haven't, Tyranids have just about 1000-upped them.

Just because one of the greatest living orks can tank a bolt to the face, that does not mean every ork can fight without a head. And isn't his skull made of adamantium or something?

Hunchkrot wrote:
Just because one of the greatest living orks can tank a bolt to the face, that does not mean every ork can fight without a head. And isn't his skull made of adamantium or something?

Half of his head was replaced with adamantium after the bolt.

 Bobthehero wrote:
No, the bolt explodes on the face of the Ork, fails to penetrate the skin. Its not the same as: the Ork head is gone and there's no way for its body to be controlled.

It says it pulped parts of his brain...

Also I'm not trying to say which one is tougher, though that really isn't a good comparison, When Ghazzy got hit in the face, he was a regular ork boy, so if we had to compare, it would have to be a gaunt, but anyways, I'm just saying that it is possible for the orks to survive decapitation, and still be useful later on.

willhman wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
No, the bolt explodes on the face of the Ork, fails to penetrate the skin. Its not the same as: the Ork head is gone and there's no way for its body to be controlled.

It says it pulped parts of his brain...

Also I'm not trying to say which one is tougher, though that really isn't a good comparison, When Ghazzy got hit in the face, he was a regular ork boy, so if we had to compare, it would have to be a gaunt, but anyways, I'm just saying that it is possible for the orks to survive decapitation, and still be useful later on.

So would having creatures tough enough to survive cyclonic torpedoes.

 -Loki- wrote:

willhman wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
No, the bolt explodes on the face of the Ork, fails to penetrate the skin. Its not the same as: the Ork head is gone and there's no way for its body to be controlled.

It says it pulped parts of his brain...

Also I'm not trying to say which one is tougher, though that really isn't a good comparison, When Ghazzy got hit in the face, he was a regular ork boy, so if we had to compare, it would have to be a gaunt, but anyways, I'm just saying that it is possible for the orks to survive decapitation, and still be useful later on.

So would having creatures tough enough to survive cyclonic torpedoes.

Wait, do you mean surviving decapitation? Because we do not know that. Carnifexes are tough, but we do not know if they can survive a decapitation.

willhman wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

willhman wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
No, the bolt explodes on the face of the Ork, fails to penetrate the skin. Its not the same as: the Ork head is gone and there's no way for its body to be controlled.

It says it pulped parts of his brain...

Also I'm not trying to say which one is tougher, though that really isn't a good comparison, When Ghazzy got hit in the face, he was a regular ork boy, so if we had to compare, it would have to be a gaunt, but anyways, I'm just saying that it is possible for the orks to survive decapitation, and still be useful later on.

So would having creatures tough enough to survive cyclonic torpedoes.

Wait, do you mean surviving decapitation? Because we do not know that. Carnifexes are tough, but we do not know if they can survive a decapitation.

No, surviving exterminatus by cyclonic torpedo. That thing the Imperium likes to do that incinerates an entire planet, all biological matter and atmosphere. There's fluff of Carnifexes surviving that.

 -Loki- wrote:

willhman wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

willhman wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
No, the bolt explodes on the face of the Ork, fails to penetrate the skin. Its not the same as: the Ork head is gone and there's no way for its body to be controlled.

It says it pulped parts of his brain...

Also I'm not trying to say which one is tougher, though that really isn't a good comparison, When Ghazzy got hit in the face, he was a regular ork boy, so if we had to compare, it would have to be a gaunt, but anyways, I'm just saying that it is possible for the orks to survive decapitation, and still be useful later on.

So would having creatures tough enough to survive cyclonic torpedoes.

Wait, do you mean surviving decapitation? Because we do not know that. Carnifexes are tough, but we do not know if they can survive a decapitation.

No, surviving exterminatus by cyclonic torpedo. That thing the Imperium likes to do that incinerates an entire planet, all biological matter and atmosphere. There's fluff of Carnifexes surviving that.

Oh, well yes that would be useful, against the IOM, but against the orks, not so much. Plus, that probably a Ghazzy moment. The carnifex probably had luck on it's side, just like Ghazzy did. The Decapitation, for orks though, can be useful in all kinds of situations. Say the body of an ork body is completely ruined, but its head is fine. Now another ork had it's head crushed, so the dok just puts the ork head on that other orks body, and viola, ork fighter back in fight. This is really useful in protracted wars. Cuts losses down, and brings in fighters. Also thanks to orks robust nature, the body doesn't even have to be full intact, they can organic parts with mechanical ones, bringing even more bodies for use.

willhman wrote:
Oh, well yes that would be useful, against the IOM, but against the orks, not so much. Plus, that probably a Ghazzy moment. The carnifex probably had luck on it's side, just like Ghazzy did. The Decapitation, for orks though, can be useful in all kinds of situations. Say the body of an ork body is completely ruined, but its head is fine. Now another ork had it's head crushed, so the dok just puts the ork head on that other orks body, and viola, ork fighter back in fight. This is really useful in protracted wars. Cuts losses down, and brings in fighters. Also thanks to orks robust nature, the body doesn't even have to be full intact, they can organic parts with mechanical ones, bringing even more bodies for use.

The ability to survive the heat and explosive force from a cyclonic furnace capable of incinerating a planet wouldn't be useful against anyone but the Imperium? What?

It's not a resistance to cyclonic torperdos specifically. It's a testament to how tough Carnifexes are, and Tyranids have quite a few bugs that are even tougher than them.

The fact that a Carnifex, probably the lowest on the Tyranid Monstrous Creature scale, can survive that, is impressive. The fact that the only comparable Ork you can find is the toughest Ork in the fluff at the moment is also pretty evident of how much tougher Tyranids can make their bugs than Orks, if needed. There's one Ghazkull. There's hundreds of thousands of creatures as tough, or tougher, than Carnifexes per invasion.

No, this is not evident on Gaunts, because it's not needed. Gaunts aren't meant to be that tough. But I can't see any evidence of Orks making any land based vehicles as tough as a Carnifex, let alone anything tougher than a Carnifex.

Being decapitated and surviving for 30 minutes? Admirable. Surviving Exterminatus and regenerating in a vacuum, and requiring a ship based Lance weapon to be finished off? Better.

Orks don't do exterminatus. And Carnifexes don't usually survive anywhere NEAR that amount of firepower.

Again, it just got lucky.

 Melissia wrote:
Orks don't do exterminatus.

Orks don't use boltguns either. But resistance to a bolt is surely going to have an impact on a conflict with them.

Again, it's not a resistance to cyclonic torpedos, it's in general how tough they are. If they can survive the heat and impact from a cyclonic torpedo, they're kind of tough, you know?

 Melissia wrote:
And Carnifexes don't usually survive anywhere NEAR that amount of firepower.

Again, it just got lucky.

Well obviously it got lucky. We don't have pages of fluff describing entire heavy assault waves surviving. Even still, it survived heat that would melt a titan to slag.

But the most survivable we see Orks in fluff is their brain surviving 30 minutes after decapitation, or the toughest Ork in the fluff survivng a bolt to the head (who got similarly lucky).

Those aren't really comparitive.

But anyway, since this topic has turned into the usual tiny fluff exerpt dick measuring it usually does, I'll bow out until a new one appears next week.

 -Loki- wrote:

The fact that a Carnifex, probably the lowest on the Tyranid Monstrous Creature scale, can survive that, is impressive. The fact that the only comparable Ork you can find is the toughest Ork in the fluff at the moment is also pretty evident of how much tougher Tyranids can make their bugs than Orks, if needed. There's one Ghazkull. There's hundreds of thousands of creatures as tough, or tougher, than Carnifexes per invasion.

Ok but since this is a nid invasion, shouldn't the tougher creatures be on the planet? yet the only survivor was a carnifex, which as you said was the lowest creature on the monstrous creature scale, but the tougher creatures didn't survive. So that has alot to say about the circumstances about what happened to the carnifex.

Also when Ghazzy was hit by a bolt, he was a ork boy, that is the lowest you can go if you are a ork.

My mistake guys. I went back and I reread the passage, and it talks about mass moving undetected. Back then, the Tyranids used the warp, so I mentally put the pieces together.

MGS, are you serious? I have every Tyranid codex except for the latest one, and they've always had a Shadow in the Warp and used psionic abilities clearly powered by the warp. How can they exist without the warp?

Might as well make the Necrons into space mummies...

Man, I hate GW getting old.

Either way, each circumstance has only happened once, to one person, so they can both be attributed to luck. I'd also like to mention there still is no evidence that orks can continue fighting after decapitation, so we should quit using that example. "one time one ork got shot in the head and got better", does not equate to fighting after decapitation.

If it was written than an ork with a new head grafted onto his body could effectively fire and such fight, you don't need an "official" writer to write a battle where dead orks do get new heads and fight effectively. If you are told that a boy/nob had half his head blown off and replaced with compnents and plating, then fighting on and becoming one of the greatest fighters in (fantasy) written history, you don't need to bring any evidence about other orks being able to do the same. You are already been told they're are able to.

'Nids are full scale predators. Sort of semi intelligent locusts which have developed interstellar travel and lethal weaponry on a battlefield/planetary scale, and they work as a sort of natural recycling effect on a planetary level; they got somewhere, eat everything, then move on and leave the planet to recycle. That is what they are, what they do, and they are pretty good at it.

Orks are ultimate fighters and survivors. You can say they are made to fight everything and survive everything. They will fight against anything, keep fighting while getting pounded, endure it, growing and strengthening through it, and ultimately beating it. They were built so. They were meant so. It is not that they want to be so. They are so. That is what they are, what they do, and they are just the best at it.

That the ork species does not unify is an innate built in limitation for them not being the dominant species and letting others flourish. In fact orks are not dominators, being plenty of examples of collaboration with humans, for example, even contract and employment in both directions. But such a limitation is not an inbuilt self destruction mechanism. Orks are able to work for a common goal, and it has been stated that they are able to do so even at a subconscient level in an interstellar scale.

So there is no point in trying to demonstrate any species owning orks in any way. It is simply not possible. Do you want an ultimate explanation? Well, you got it. Not, better still, get two of 'em:

GORK.

MORK.

Now that is something nobody can even match, as has been widely exposed. The two greatest entities in the warp, far stronger and tougher than any other one, be they chaos powers, emperor of mankind, eldar gods, etc. Both able to communicate with and direct orks and their efforts in a galactic level. Both of them with an unsurmountable invincivility regarding any 'nid effort to conquer them (or anybody else's efforts for that matter). Thing is, just nobodyu can wipe out orks. Nobody. There is an ultimate mechanism to ensure that. You can go rambling for hundreds of pages, bringing every explanation you can think of, but there is simply no way to wipe out orks. And in an ultimate fight, orks have the upper hand. Always. There is simply nothing that can hurt orks in such a level as to affect their survival as a species, and being so, and being them natural born fighters, any such enough protracted war can only ever end with an ork victory (but see below).

Just change the question. Want 'nids winning over orks? Ask for a planet. For an empire. For a subsector. For a sector. But not for a protracted war. Not for a war for a survival of the species. Then you have already lost. because orks will survive everything which is not the material erasing of the galaxy, and possibly even furthest in scale. 'Nids on the other hand won't be able to predate the whole of orks. So they would ultimately lose the fight, tell it as you like, explain it as you like, in as many chapters as you like. The most able predators wouldn't be able to own the ultimate survivors. BUT wait: orks would not ever try to wipe out 'nids. Never, ever. They would not ever try to wipe out such a good fighter (see Ghaz and Yarrick). One can guess the hive mind would ultimately adapt to such a reality and use it to its advantage as a training method for going elsewhere.

So end result is theoretically orks would win such a conflict, but that is never going to happen.

 DOGGED wrote:
If it was written than an ork with a new head grafted onto his body could effectively fire and such fight, you don't need an "official" writer to write a battle where dead orks do get new heads and fight effectively. If you are told that a boy/nob had half his head blown off and replaced with compnents and plating, then fighting on and becoming one of the greatest fighters in (fantasy) written history, you don't need to bring any evidence about other orks being able to do the same. You are already been told they're are able to.

'Nids are full scale predators. Sort of semi intelligent locusts which have developed interstellar travel and lethal weaponry on a battlefield/planetary scale, and they work as a sort of natural recycling effect on a planetary level; they got somewhere, eat everything, then move on and leave the planet to recycle. That is what they are, what they do, and they are pretty good at it.

Orks are ultimate fighters and survivors. You can say they are made to fight everything and survive everything. They will fight against anything, keep fighting while getting pounded, endure it, growing and strengthening through it, and ultimately beating it. They were built so. They were meant so. It is not that they want to be so. They are so. That is what they are, what they do, and they are just the best at it.

That the ork species does not unify is an innate built in limitation for them not being the dominant species and letting others flourish. In fact orks are not dominators, being plenty of examples of collaboration with humans, for example, even contract and employment in both directions. But such a limitation is not an inbuilt self destruction mechanism. Orks are able to work for a common goal, and it has been stated that they are able to do so even at a subconscient level in an interstellar scale.

So there is no point in trying to demonstrate any species owning orks in any way. It is simply not possible. Do you want an ultimate explanation? Well, you got it. Not, better still, get two of 'em:

GORK.

MORK.

Now that is something nobody can even match, as has been widely exposed. The two greatest entities in the warp, far stronger and tougher than any other one, be they chaos powers, emperor of mankind, eldar gods, etc. Both able to communicate with and direct orks and their efforts in a galactic level. Both of them with an unsurmountable invincivility regarding any 'nid effort to conquer them (or anybody else's efforts for that matter). Thing is, just nobodyu can wipe out orks. Nobody. There is an ultimate mechanism to ensure that. You can go rambling for hundreds of pages, bringing every explanation you can think of, but there is simply no way to wipe out orks. And in an ultimate fight, orks have the upper hand. Always. There is simply nothing that can hurt orks in such a level as to affect their survival as a species, and being so, and being them natural born fighters, any such enough protracted war can only ever end with an ork victory (but see below).

Just change the question. Want 'nids winning over orks? Ask for a planet. For an empire. For a subsector. For a sector. But not for a protracted war. Not for a war for a survival of the species. Then you have already lost. because orks will survive everything which is not the material erasing of the galaxy, and possibly even furthest in scale. 'Nids on the other hand won't be able to predate the whole of orks. So they would ultimately lose the fight, tell it as you like, explain it as you like, in as many chapters as you like. The most able predators wouldn't be able to own the ultimate survivors. BUT wait: orks would not ever try to wipe out 'nids. Never, ever. They would not ever try to wipe out such a good fighter (see Ghaz and Yarrick). One can guess the hive mind would ultimately adapt to such a reality and use it to its advantage as a training method for going elsewhere.

So end result is theoretically orks would win such a conflict, but that is never going to happen.

Discussion closed?

Hunchkrot wrote:
Either way, each circumstance has only happened once, to one person, so they can both be attributed to luck. I'd also like to mention there still is no evidence that orks can continue fighting after decapitation, so we should quit using that example. "one time one ork got shot in the head and got better", does not equate to fighting after decapitation.

Orks were decapitated and their heads placed on other bodies and the ork was combat capable again, additional limbs added simply increased the number of weapons they could hold.

So, YES. Orks have suffered decapitation and been able to continue to fight afterwards.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
My mistake guys. I went back and I reread the passage, and it talks about mass moving undetected. Back then, the Tyranids used the warp, so I mentally put the pieces together.

MGS, are you serious? I have every Tyranid codex except for the latest one, and they've always had a Shadow in the Warp and used psionic abilities clearly powered by the warp. How can they exist without the warp?

YES. Go and read the newest tyranid codex, it severely hampers the tyranid race in terms of movement in space, requiring biomass to survive and being generally up gak creek without a paddle if they can't win a war or make severe inroads to obtain food quickly. They are now very limited due to a hypermetabolism, the norn queens burn up huge amounts of food creating new biomorphs and force evolving their troops to combat, if they can't win relatively early, they are boned.

The Eldar understand this and have been wiping out all life on worlds around the fringes of the nid v ork fight from Kryptman's gamble. They are denying the splinter fleet the opportunity to feed whilst it hurls it's self at the wall of orks, to burn it's energy up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 -Loki- wrote:
The fact that a Carnifex, probably the lowest on the Tyranid Monstrous Creature scale, can survive that, is impressive. The fact that the only comparable Ork you can find is the toughest Ork in the fluff at the moment is also pretty evident of how much tougher Tyranids can make their bugs than Orks, if needed. There's one Ghazkull. There's hundreds of thousands of creatures as tough, or tougher, than Carnifexes per invasion.

No, this is not evident on Gaunts, because it's not needed. Gaunts aren't meant to be that tough. But I can't see any evidence of Orks making any land based vehicles as tough as a Carnifex, let alone anything tougher than a Carnifex.
Being decapitated and surviving for 30 minutes? Admirable. Surviving Exterminatus and regenerating in a vacuum, and requiring a ship based Lance weapon to be finished off? Better.

I've already told you the 30 mins thing is a red herring, detach yourself from it, no actual time limit has been set by ork books, only that the heads were recovered after a battle still alive and they were attached to bodies and became fully combat effective.

One carnifex got lucky in an explosion. You have no citation that there are 'hundreds of thousands of creatures as tough' in a planetary invasion. The only comparison you need to be conducting is the millions of orks vs the millions of gaunts and in that, bugs lose. Also I've never encountered a carnifex that wouldn't break given a few lootaz, so screw exterminatus, how many deff guns do you suppose there would be?

There are many, many examples of carnifex (carnifi?) dying to lascannons, plasma fire, hero's punches, being left in the car on a hot day etc and one example of a carnifex surviving an orbital bombardment, which therefore is the normal circumstance and which is the fluke?