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Made in us
Been Around the Block




A destroyer has preferred enemy Everything!, not everybody, everything.

This gives it permission to use the effect of preferred enemy against -everything-

What gives a building permission to not count as part of everything?
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

greatergoodjones wrote:
A destroyer has preferred enemy Everything!, not everybody, everything.

This gives it permission to use the effect of preferred enemy against -everything-

What gives a building permission to not count as part of everything?

Look at the Preferred enemy rules. Pure RAW preferred enemy Everything does 100% of nothing.

He needs preferred enemy (unspecified) to follow the RaW.

So either Everything = Everyone

Or

The rule does not work at all.

The latter breaks the game and makes his rule useless, therefore the formor is the only way to make the rule work in the game system.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/21 05:52:21


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in ca
Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord





Not doing too well with the logic there, huh?

All people are things, but not all things are people.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 azazel the cat wrote:
Not doing too well with the logic there, huh?

All people are things, but not all things are people.


Doing fine on the logic. not sure what you read but Re-read my post.

PE reads

"If the special rule does not specify a type of foe, then everyone is a Preferred Enemy of the unit." P. 40

Notice the PE rules use everyone, no mention of everything.

P.S. the "either Everything = Everyone" i posted is in reference to a destroyer which has preferred enemy Everything. This rule does nothing because of the PE rules.

Or it does something and we have to assume that everything actually means everyone, as the BRB states.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/03/21 05:55:02


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




Johnson City, NewYork

You did manage to leave out the part where PE says that PE (X) where x identifies a specific type of foe. The rule itself is then qualifying Everything! as a specific type of foe.

As I posted earlier if you can shoot at it, it becomes a foe. Per the wounding section.

Edit: Though on rereading it I have to look at it with askance. It could be saying that everything is a specific type or could be saying X must be a specific type...... I have to change my stance that I would like it to be everything I shoot at but it could be they wanted it to read everyone........ So I will have to go with only while attacking things from codexes.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/21 15:49:14


ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.

You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 Gravmyr wrote:
You did manage to leave out the part where PE says that PE (X) where x identifies a specific type of foe. The rule itself is then qualifying Everything! as a specific type of foe.

As I posted earlier if you can shoot at it, it becomes a foe. Per the wounding section.

Except that is not true, as enemy is clearly defined as enemy models/units in the BRB.

I left out the first part of PE because it has no bearing on the discussion.

The rule itself does not qualify Everything! as a specific type of foe, as noted in the other entries for things with PE.

Tycho has PE Orks Some CSM's have PE Space Marines.

Foe's come from a codex.

Buildings do not come from a codex, therefore never a foe or enemy.


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




Johnson City, NewYork

Again enemy it used both qualified and unqualified throughout the book, to claim that because it has been used with models, units or opponent it must be one of those things is false. Foe on the other hand is anything you have hit with a shot and roll to wound per pg 24.

Edit: Wrong pg #

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/21 15:54:53


ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.

You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

You mean this quote:

"they may end up there after scattering and will then cause hits on any units they touch (friends and foes!) as normal." P. 28

The quote talking about units they touch?

A building is not a unit.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




Johnson City, NewYork

Sorry pg 24 "As with shooting, once you have scored a hit with an Attack, you must roll a D6 for each successful hit to see if you cause a wound and damage your foe."

Edit: Time for lunch obviously.... that would be from the assault section not shooting....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/21 15:58:00


ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.

You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

So how does one score a hit against a foe?

"To determine whether hits are scored, roll a D6 for each Attack a model gets to make and compare the WS of the attacking model with the WS of the target unit." P.24

So hits are generated by comparing the attacking models WS with the WS of the target Unit (Which is what is referred to as foe)

In that same section it talks about "Not all of the Attacks that hit will harm the enemy" P.24 since you hit units, units are the enemy in the context of that page.

Do not ignore the context.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/21 22:07:11


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




 DeathReaper wrote:
greatergoodjones wrote:
A destroyer has preferred enemy Everything!, not everybody, everything.

This gives it permission to use the effect of preferred enemy against -everything-

What gives a building permission to not count as part of everything?

Look at the Preferred enemy rules. Pure RAW preferred enemy Everything does 100% of nothing.

He needs preferred enemy (unspecified) to follow the RaW.

So either Everything = Everyone

Or

The rule does not work at all.

The latter breaks the game and makes his rule useless, therefore the formor is the only way to make the rule work in the game system.


Or, as the third and correct option, everything is specified as everything because its in brackets and effects everything.

The codex tells use the destroyer gets preferred enemy against Everything!, the rule book tells us what preferred enemy allows it to do, any restrictions you wish to place on targets (I personally see none) is overridden by the codex saying Everything!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/21 16:19:02


 
   
Made in us
Abhorrent Grotesque Aberration





 DeathReaper wrote:
clively wrote:
Can you assault or shoot terrain? No. We all agree here.


Actually yes you can, you can assault or shoot a Gun Emplacement, and that is Battlefield Debris (Terrain).


Actually the defence line is Battlefield Debris (Defence lines).
Battlefield debris is considered difficult terrain, unless otherwise noted. The Gun Emplacement, is specifically allowed to be shot and assaulted due to the rule on pg 105, just above where it's profile is given. So there is specific permission here and PE also applies.

Getting back to the main topic:

On Page 12, The Shooting Phase, we have the following statements (emphasis mine):

Under Choose a Target: "To do so, you must check the range and line of sight from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting"

Under Line of Sight: "To target an enemy unit, at least one model must have line of sight..."

In both cases the only permission given to shoot is at an Enemy Unit.

Again, on Page 93: "Units may shoot at or charge an occupied building just as if it was a vehicle".

The only way Shooting works against a building is if it is a vehicle. But, more specifically, that it is a vehicle that is an Enemy Unit. If it wasn't considered an enemy unit then regardless of what's on pg93, none of the shooting rules would apply due to the more restrictive verbiage of "enemy unit".

Preferred Enemy says, 'If the special rule does not specify a type of foe, then everyone is a Preferred Enemy of the unit."

Note that nowhere does it say that Preferred Enemy only works against "units", "enemies", or "enemy units". So that dialog doesn't matter. And if you want to get into a discussion of the word "everyone" then you might consider that PE works against Rhino's and Land Raider's; which are obviously vehicles.

Given that the building is the target (allowed by pg 93) and
can be shot (allowed by pg 12 only because we have special permission because it now counts as a vehicle, and, specifically, an Enemy Unit Vehicle because that is the ONLY way shooting can work in the first place)
then we can definitely say that the building is a foe and therefore PE works.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 DeathReaper wrote:
So how does one score a hit against a foe?

"To determine whether hits are scored, roll a D6 for each Attack a model gets to make and compare the WS of the attacking model with the WS of the target unit." P.24

So hits are generated by comparing the attacking models WS with the WS of the target Unit (Which is what is referred to as foe)

In that same section it talks about "Not all of the Attacks that hit will harm the enemy" P.24 since you hit units, units are the enemy in the context of that page.

Do not ignore the contect.


This is immaterial. Assaults against buildings automatically hit, again pg 93; so we are given implicit instructions to bypass that section.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/03/21 21:38:15


------------------
"Why me?" Gideon begged, falling to his knees.
"Why not?" - Asdrubael Vect 
   
Made in us
Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader





Massachusetts

 DeathReaper wrote:
 PrinceRaven wrote:
This brings up a question, what about something with preferred enemy - everything? does PE still work on neutral units?

A building is Terrain, and not a unit.


Isn't it a "Fortification" Unit?

2500 pts

Horst wrote:This is how trolling happens. A few cheeky posts are made. Then they get more insulting. Eventually, we revert to our primal animal state, hurling feces at each other while shreeking with glee.



 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




No; units have a unit type, for a start
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

clively wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
clively wrote:
Can you assault or shoot terrain? No. We all agree here.


Actually yes you can, you can assault or shoot a Gun Emplacement, and that is Battlefield Debris (Terrain).


Actually the defence line is Battlefield Debris (Defence lines).

That is what I said.

Battlefield Debris is terrain.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




 DeathReaper wrote:
 Gravmyr wrote:
You did manage to leave out the part where PE says that PE (X) where x identifies a specific type of foe. The rule itself is then qualifying Everything! as a specific type of foe.

As I posted earlier if you can shoot at it, it becomes a foe. Per the wounding section.

Except that is not true, as enemy is clearly defined as enemy models/units in the BRB.

I left out the first part of PE because it has no bearing on the discussion.

The rule itself does not qualify Everything! as a specific type of foe, as noted in the other entries for things with PE.

Tycho has PE Orks Some CSM's have PE Space Marines.

Foe's come from a codex.

Buildings do not come from a codex, therefore never a foe or enemy.



Can I ask why you believe that the specification of "everything" doesn't count?
   
Made in us
Abhorrent Grotesque Aberration





Or, more to the point:

Please cite the following (page numbers help):

1. Where Enemy is clearly defined as being *only* models/units.
2. Where Foe's are described as *only* being items listed in a codex.

The second one is interesting because, taken to it's logical conclusion, it would mean that when the flyers first came out they couldn't be shot. It would also mean that the various flyers listed in the DFTS book can't be shot or assaulted unless they have corresponding entries in a codex.

But that would be silly.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/22 04:03:28


------------------
"Why me?" Gideon begged, falling to his knees.
"Why not?" - Asdrubael Vect 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





Eureka California

If it's on an enemy army list it's part of the enemy force and therefore an enemy.

-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

greatergoodjones wrote:
Can I ask why you believe that the specification of "everything" doesn't count?

Look at the Preferred enemy rules. Pure RAW preferred enemy needs to specify a foe.

It says Everything must = Everyone or PE does not work at all as there is no allowance for everything as a tagline.


In the Context of PE a foe is any models from that particular codex. Some models have PE (Orks) they get to use PE against any models from the Ork Codex.

Page 46 "If an Artillery unit is forced to Fall Back from close combat and the enemy is free to make a Sweeping Advance,"

Page 52 same section "Instead ,if a Template weapons fires overwatch... on the charging unit,... If the charge failed, we can assume that the enemy ran into range..."

Page 63 "If, when it is a character's turn to make a Pile In move, other friendly models are piling in at the same time, the character must move as soon as it is able, to get into base contact with an enemy."

Page 64 "can't challenge a specific enemy, he just issues a challenge to the foe at large and sees who steps forwards."

Enemy = unit in the BRB on P. 52 Enemy = model on P 63 and 64 and Enemy is defined as a unit on P. 46, as only units can make a SA


If what you are saying is true, then Buildings can use Deny the Witch "If the Psychic test was passed and the target was an enemy, it now gets a chance to Deny the Witch and nullify the power." P.67

Which is of course not true as they define enemy for deny the witch as a unit. "If a psychic power is targeted on an enemy unit..." P. 68

They also use enemy to denote opponent. Smoke launcher rules said: "After the enemy's Shooting phase, the smoke disperses with no further effect." P. 87

Page 92 tells us that "Units can also charge an enemy that is occupying an adjacent building"


In the context of the rules enemy is not a building, as enemy refers to units, models and opponents.



"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





Eureka California

Ya... foes.. the things on that list of enemies your opponent has.

-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 Abandon wrote:
Ya... foes.. the things on that list of enemies your opponent has.

Right all your opponents units.


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





Eureka California

oh and yes, enemy terrain cannot make a sweeping advance...

-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




 DeathReaper wrote:
greatergoodjones wrote:
Can I ask why you believe that the specification of "everything" doesn't count?

Look at the Preferred enemy rules. Pure RAW preferred enemy needs to specify a foe.

It says Everything must = Everyone or PE does not work at all as there is no allowance for everything as a tagline.



So I ask again, why does it not count when the destroyer specifies Everything! as a foe? I agree that it needs to specify a foe, or it defaults to everybody, but it did specify a foe, and that foe is Everything!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/22 04:31:36


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

greatergoodjones wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
greatergoodjones wrote:
Can I ask why you believe that the specification of "everything" doesn't count?

Look at the Preferred enemy rules. Pure RAW preferred enemy needs to specify a foe.

It says Everything must = Everyone or PE does not work at all as there is no allowance for everything as a tagline.



So I ask again, why does it not count when the destroyer specifies Everything! as a foe? I agree that it needs to specify a foe, or it defaults to everybody, but it did specify a foe, and that foe is Everything!

The PE rules state foe, and terrain is never a foe.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Abhorrent Grotesque Aberration





 Abandon wrote:
oh and yes, enemy terrain cannot make a sweeping advance...

Vehicles can't either, so that doesn't mean much.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 DeathReaper wrote:

The PE rules state foe, and terrain is never a foe.


It absolutely can be treated as a foe: when we've been given explicit permission to attack it. Such as counting as a vehicle (occupied building) or given a stat line for that purpose, as the Gun Emplacement clearly has.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/03/22 04:42:45


------------------
"Why me?" Gideon begged, falling to his knees.
"Why not?" - Asdrubael Vect 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

It never counts as a vehicle,, Unless you have a rules quote that says it counts as a vehicle.

It just uses some of the rules for vehicles, but not all of them.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




"Units may shoot or charge an occupied building just as if it was a vehicle" pg. 93

If one is shooting or charging something just as if it was a vehicle, does it get every rule it would get when shooting or charging a vehicle?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/22 04:50:31


 
   
Made in us
Abhorrent Grotesque Aberration





 DeathReaper wrote:
It never counts as a vehicle,, Unless you have a rules quote that says it counts as a vehicle.

It just uses some of the rules for vehicles, but not all of them.


Really?

I've quoted the rule, multiple times. Here it the important bit again.

pg93: "...just as if it was a vehicle". That is plain as day counts as. Quite frankly there is no other reason to include that bit of text except to RAW state to use all of the rules surrounding vehicles. Permissive rule set, remember? We're told to treat it as a vehicle, then we are told to override a very limited and explicit set of rules in the following paragraph.

That paragraph, not incidentally, starts off "When shooting at a building, roll To Hit and for armour penetration normally." How else could you "normally" shoot at it if you weren't using the rules for hitting a vehicle? Hint: you can't as the shooting rules use those words you seem to like, namely "enemy unit".



This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/03/22 05:01:24


------------------
"Why me?" Gideon begged, falling to his knees.
"Why not?" - Asdrubael Vect 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord





Eureka California

Building have listed "transport capacity" pg 92

Buildings fire points pg 93

Oh and "Units may shoot at or charge an occupied building just as if it was a vehicle." pg 93

If you shoot at it like it's a vehicle and it's on the enemy list, you get PE

-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

And none of those rules say it counts as...

Therefore It never counts as a vehicle, unless you have a rule saying it counts as a vehicle.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/22 05:02:27


"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
 
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