There are no wolves on Fenris

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**Beaviz81**

Yes it's that farfetched the examples I have used are proof of that. Mutations lets you grow extra hair or arms, they don't transfer you into another species. The lupine DNA goes out of control in some of the Space Wolves resulting in the Wulfen. That's basically a gang of werewolves, it does not transfer you from man to wolf. Such thoughts are simply ludicrous. I understand sci-fi, but please have some science in the mix instead of going by the rule of fun.

**DarthMarko**

routmord wrote:
Here is my take on it:
You can take the expression figuratively: Fenrisians are honest and noble bloodthirsty barbarians. There is no deception or betrayal in what they do. When Fenrisian tribes engage in genocide, it is called a murdermake, not nation-building.
Or you could interpret it to mean that the Canis Helix, which was developed by Dark Age colonists (in order to colonize an ice death world whose surface means death in seconds to ordinary humans) even causes mutations in the human populace, therefore the wolves on Fenris are people. It's PEOPLE!! In the books, Magnus, some high-ranking Space Wolves, and I think even Malcador alluded to the latter of these.
I think that the expression began in the fluff as the former. Despite the Administratum and Ecclisiarchy's incompetence and betrayal, Fenris has stayed true to it's mission. Fenris could care less what the High Lords of Terra are up to, it would keep on keeping on. This mystical combination of legend and tradition between the tribes and the skywarriors keeps Fenris loyal. Future Foundings of the Space Wolves have failed because they lacked pieces of this knotwork.

This is also a great theory, have an ale mate!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yodhrin wrote:

I actually rather like the implications such an interpretation of the "no wolves" statement; that the Wulfen are not a curse at all, but an intended result of the Emperor's genetic template for the Wolves, a sort of "immune response" against Chaos(as demonstrated by the 13th Co.), while the true flaw in their genome is the possibility they'll suffer a sort of genetic autoimmune disease where the Canis Helix attacks and replaces their human DNA to such a degree that they transform into barely-sentient wolf-like beasts with no hope of turning back.

I've also read somewhere that canix helix was used with the EC (to stabilize their degradation)...

**Void__Dragon**

Beaviz81 wrote:
Yes it's that farfetched the examples I have used are proof of that. Mutations lets you grow extra hair or arms, they don't transfer you into another species. The lupine DNA goes out of control in some of the Space Wolves resulting in the Wulfen. That's basically a gang of werewolves, it does not transfer you from man to wolf. Such thoughts are simply ludicrous. I understand sci-fi, but please have some science in the mix instead of going by the rule of fun.

Zogwort would like a word with you.

You know, that guy who can transform any species in the galaxy into a squig. A fungus.

**DarthMarko**

Beaviz81 wrote:
Yes it's that farfetched the examples I have used are proof of that. Mutations lets you grow extra hair or arms, they don't transfer you into another species. The lupine DNA goes out of control in some of the Space Wolves resulting in the Wulfen. That's basically a gang of werewolves, it does not transfer you from man to wolf. Such thoughts are simply ludicrous. I understand sci-fi, but please have some science in the mix instead of going by the rule of fun.

Beauty of 40k fluff is that you can ignore stuff which are OTT...

**Void__Dragon**

It's weird though, it's not really over the top, just silly and kind of homoerotic.

**DarthMarko**

Void__Dragon wrote:
It's weird though, it's not really over the top, just silly and kind of homoerotic.

Weird- yes, homoerotic - hmm.....if you are into wolves :-)

There is also a gap between Colonists and Fenrisians which needs to be filled...I'mean if you go by the theory that wolves were once human...

**Yodhrin**

Beaviz81 wrote:
Yes it's that farfetched the examples I have used are proof of that. Mutations lets you grow extra hair or arms, they don't transfer you into another species. The lupine DNA goes out of control in some of the Space Wolves resulting in the Wulfen. That's basically a gang of werewolves, it does not transfer you from man to wolf. Such thoughts are simply ludicrous. I understand sci-fi, but please have some science in the mix instead of going by the rule of fun.

I'm not a geneticist, but I am a scientist with a pretty heavy interest in transhumanism(including human genetic modification), and you're creating a distinction which doesn't exist. Hypothetically, there is nothing in the science which prohibits us mechanically from transforming a living example of one species into a living example of another, particularly in this case since we're not actually talking about turning someone "from man to wolf" as you put it, but rather from man to genetic hybrid exhibiting wolf-like characteristics. Also, I find it odd that you draw the line at "genetic modification creates superhuman-werewolves" but utterly refuse to countenance "genetic modification creates bizarre man-wolf hybrid creature". If anything, the former is more ludicrous than the latter, since the latter is a permanent change while the former somehow managed to grant polymorphic abilities - something for which there is no scientific basis at all in this context.

**Void__Dragon**

DarthMarko wrote:
if you are into wolves :-)

I hear the Vlka Fenryka get into wolves whenever possible.

There is also a gap between Colonists and Fenrisians which needs to be filled

And the Vlka Fenryka are only too eager to plug that gap, nice and snug.

Man I am clever.

**Extreaminatus**

From the 40k Wiki:

somedudeonthe40kwiki wrote:It is generally known that during this earlier age when Mankind colonised the galaxy that humanity possessed advanced genetic engineering technology. For those early settlers that colonised the inhospitable, icy Death World of Fenris, they may have attempted to find a way to adapt themselves to the harsh environments of their new homeworld, splicing their DNA through gene-manipulation with that of Terran wolves that were more suited to the arctic conditions and climatic extremes. One could extrapolate that this would have provided the Fenrisian colonists with a fighting chance at surviving this hellish environment. In some cases this manipulation must have had unforeseen consequences.

Perhaps the first generation of "wolves" came from the original gene-tailored colonists that devolved over time until their genetic alterations stabilised, creating the first Fenrisian Wolves.

This what I gathered from the books, especially when Magnus projected his astral form to Fenris and looked at the genetic make-up of the 'wolves' there.

**PredaKhaine**

Is there a cited source for this?

I've not read anything about the original colonists of fenris and would like to catch up if I've missed something.
Thanks

**Extreaminatus**

I THINK the Magnus looking at the genetic code thing is in 'A Thousand Sons', which heavily implies that, deep down, there's a bunch of human genetic stuff in the wolves.

**Beaviz81**

Yodhrin wrote:
Beaviz81 wrote:
Yes it's that farfetched the examples I have used are proof of that. Mutations lets you grow extra hair or arms, they don't transfer you into another species. The lupine DNA goes out of control in some of the Space Wolves resulting in the Wulfen. That's basically a gang of werewolves, it does not transfer you from man to wolf. Such thoughts are simply ludicrous. I understand sci-fi, but please have some science in the mix instead of going by the rule of fun.

I'm not a geneticist, but I am a scientist with a pretty heavy interest in transhumanism(including human genetic modification), and you're creating a distinction which doesn't exist. Hypothetically, there is nothing in the science which prohibits us mechanically from transforming a living example of one species into a living example of another, particularly in this case since we're not actually talking about turning someone "from man to wolf" as you put it, but rather from man to genetic hybrid exhibiting wolf-like characteristics. Also, I find it odd that you draw the line at "genetic modification creates superhuman-werewolves" but utterly refuse to countenance "genetic modification creates bizarre man-wolf hybrid creature". If anything, the former is more ludicrous than the latter, since the latter is a permanent change while the former somehow managed to grant polymorphic abilities - something for which there is no scientific basis at all in this context.

Mutations have created very similar animals which are utterly unrelated IRL. They flying squirrels of Australia and North America are proof of that. But such things happens over millions of years. In 40.000 years the changes to the basic humans would not be large enough for them to mutate into wolves. And creating manchildish supermen with the methods of 40k would probably be a bad idea, but it's sort of cool. I just doggedly think the wolves of Fenris are totally unrelated to humans, and I really doesn't want to know how a pack of Wulfen interacts with a pack of wolves. All I know is that they ain't genetically compatible luckily.

**caminacambob**

Having just read A Thousand Sons, I have to say initially I thought it was the literal Space Wolves = Fenrisian Wolves, however after re-reading the section in which Ahriman turns on one of the other Thousand Sons for making an assumption by stating, "There are no wolves on Fenris", that it is the less literal, "Don't accept things on face value", philosopher's approach.

**Asherian Command**

routmord wrote:
Here is my take on it:
You can take the expression figuratively: Fenrisians are honest and noble bloodthirsty barbarians. There is no deception or betrayal in what they do. When Fenrisian tribes engage in genocide, it is called a murdermake, not nation-building.
Or you could interpret it to mean that the Canis Helix, which was developed by Dark Age colonists (in order to colonize an ice death world whose surface means death in seconds to ordinary humans) even causes mutations in the human populace, therefore the wolves on Fenris are people. It's PEOPLE!! In the books, Magnus, some high-ranking Space Wolves, and I think even Malcador alluded to the latter of these.
I think that the expression began in the fluff as the former. Despite the Administratum and Ecclisiarchy's incompetence and betrayal, Fenris has stayed true to it's mission. Fenris could care less what the High Lords of Terra are up to, it would keep on keeping on. This mystical combination of legend and tradition between the tribes and the skywarriors keeps Fenris loyal. Future Foundings of the Space Wolves have failed because they lacked pieces of this knotwork.

For a first post. This is quite well thought out. I like. Nice theory might need to steal it >.>

**Yodhrin**

Beaviz81 wrote:
Yodhrin wrote:
Beaviz81 wrote:
Yes it's that farfetched the examples I have used are proof of that. Mutations lets you grow extra hair or arms, they don't transfer you into another species. The lupine DNA goes out of control in some of the Space Wolves resulting in the Wulfen. That's basically a gang of werewolves, it does not transfer you from man to wolf. Such thoughts are simply ludicrous. I understand sci-fi, but please have some science in the mix instead of going by the rule of fun.

I'm not a geneticist, but I am a scientist with a pretty heavy interest in transhumanism(including human genetic modification), and you're creating a distinction which doesn't exist. Hypothetically, there is nothing in the science which prohibits us mechanically from transforming a living example of one species into a living example of another, particularly in this case since we're not actually talking about turning someone "from man to wolf" as you put it, but rather from man to genetic hybrid exhibiting wolf-like characteristics. Also, I find it odd that you draw the line at "genetic modification creates superhuman-werewolves" but utterly refuse to countenance "genetic modification creates bizarre man-wolf hybrid creature". If anything, the former is more ludicrous than the latter, since the latter is a permanent change while the former somehow managed to grant polymorphic abilities - something for which there is no scientific basis at all in this context.

Mutations have created very similar animals which are utterly unrelated IRL. They flying squirrels of Australia and North America are proof of that. But such things happens over millions of years. In 40.000 years the changes to the basic humans would not be large enough for them to mutate into wolves. And creating manchildish supermen with the methods of 40k would probably be a bad idea, but it's sort of cool. I just doggedly think the wolves of Fenris are totally unrelated to humans, and I really doesn't want to know how a pack of Wulfen interacts with a pack of wolves. All I know is that they ain't genetically compatible luckily.

Hold on, a moment ago we were discussing advanced genetic engineering, now you want to bring evolution and deep time into things? First, the interpretation I enjoy and was arguing in favour of is one where the Space Wolves themselves are the source of Fenrisian Wolves, not the human population, and that the story of Russ' childhood is apocryphal(as the Primarchs themselves seem to be repeatedly hinting knowingly at in the HH novels whenever the subject of their own personal "origin story" comes up in conversation). The process of turning a boy into a Space Marine must surely involve massive re-sequencing of the human genome, and powerful mutagens would have to be involved for the process to work within the stated timescale; combine those factors with the likely inclusion within the Space Wolves particular makeup of lupine DNA, plus the obvious effect of the Canis Helix with its reactive and transformative properties which seem to rely heavily on that lupine DNA, and I don't think its far-fetched to posit that Fenrisian Wolves are the result of the Canis process running out of control and resulting in a more extreme and permanent physical change.

**Beaviz81**

No, the Fenrisian wolves were there before the Space Marines, they are not former Space Marines too lost in the curse of the Wulfen. That might be a hilarious thought but not one I would take very seriously because of knowledge about genetics. You can create a man-wolf hybrid, but you can't transform a man to a wolf. That's Lego-genetics. And why do you think that Russ is lying about how he was found. Angron f.ex. first action was to throw a tantrum in the midst of some Eldars. You are talking about living gods here.

**Artorias the Abysswalker**

I bet it was all a conspiracy.........

**DarthMarko**

Yep, changing the long time established fluff is heresy...Fortunately it is just a fan rant....

**Void__Dragon**

It isn't, actually.

**The Deathless Host**

Admiral Valerian wrote:
Void__Dragon wrote:
That is actually an important distinction between Magnus and his closest brother, Lorgar.

Both viewed themselves as scholars, but while Lorgar did not think of himself as a warrior, Magnus knew full-well he was meant to be one, and was content with that fact.

Lorgar was a nerd. Magnus was a true scholar-warrior. If only it wasn't for his towering pride and monumentally arrogant belief in his own mastery over the Warp (he should have focused on psionic mastery rather than unlocking the forbidden secrets of sorcery), Magnus along with Sanguinius would easily have counted as a perfect Primarch. Perfect as in he was everything the Emperor meant for him to be.

You sir are a charlatan and a traitor! Guards take him away!

but yeah your kind of right
*gets smacked in the face by Lorgar*

**Asmodai Asmodean**

Blood Angels, Thousand Sons, and the Raven Guard don't overdo it. You don't see Magnus or his Sons walking around with wigs and false beards, do you? Or Sanguinius and the Blood Angels sleeping in coffins (except during initiation) or wearing capes with exaggerated collars. Night Lords are a bit over the top though, and the World Eaters are even worse along with the Emperor's Children.

And I hate anything related to the Ecclesiarchy. Space Wolves/Khornate Knights blowing up Ecclesiarchy ships and killing bolter bitches are definitely things I can stand behind.

You mean collars like this?

Blood Angels have the highest collars in the Galaxy. Mephiston even mesmerises his victims/opponents.

**DarthMarko**

Void__Dragon wrote:
It isn't, actually.

It is - especially when older fluff works fine (fe Ollanius Pius), reinventing new stuff while totally disergarding existing, is heresy x 1000 in my eyes....

**Corporal_Reznov**

Furyou Miko wrote:
Arguably, the Hope in 30k was a manufactured thing - it depended entirely on the Emperor's survival, and the fact that he assumed that his survival was guaranteed rather than even trusting twenty other demigods with the whole plan is probably the reason it all failed.

I wouldn't say so seeing as he knows he will lose and doesn't seem to be angry or frustrated about it.

Can you imagine? A 40k where the Primarchs knew the whole truth instead of the half-truths and lies the Emperor actually gave them?

Would it really help when it comes to Lorgar and Magnus?

Lorgar wanted god's and worship, something the Emp didn't want. If he knew about the Chaos gods cause the Emp told him, its possible he would have turned traitor anyway.

Magnus knew about the things in the Warp's intelligence. The problem is that Magnus is very fething arrogant.

Void__Dragon wrote:30k was almost nothing but indoctrination. The Emperor mindraped everyone into believing the stupid as hell gak he spoused, and had remembrancers peddle the most brainwashing, illogical garbage you could imagine.

Just read that speech in the first book from that old remembrancer.

Uh no. You're correct about the indoctrination part but not the mindrape part.

You know what I find funny, its been mentioned in some sources that DAoT humanity had come to see science as god and all powerful or something like that and didn't care about religion. Something the Emp himself espouses.

**Beaviz81**

Void__Dragon wrote:
It isn't, actually.

Changing long-time fluff just because you don't like something is heresy as Marko tells you. And from what I have read of your comments in this post I'm quite certain you at least have a mild dislike for the Space Wolves.

**DarthMarko**

Beaviz81 wrote:
Void__Dragon wrote:
It isn't, actually.

Changing long-time fluff just because you don't like something is heresy as Marko tells you. And from what I have read of your comments in this post I'm quite certain you at least have a mild dislike for the Space Wolves.

"Mild" is a mild word - ofc he doesn't have problem on something which degrades his "most beloved

" legion into animals...

Well, if the tables are turned and TS were de-mutating into wolves, heads would fall and BL authors would be verbally crucified .....
No offense to @Void, but some fluff changes (like this one) are giga dumb....

**Corporal_Reznov**

What We got from Deliverance lost:

pg292-293 wrote:"The Emperor did something to streamline the primarch material to create the Legiones Astartes template, but the possible permutations are too numerous to investigate. My mathematical analysis suggests it would take at least five years of continual study to narrow down our options to a number more suitable for physical experimentation."
...
"The primarch genetic coding is vastly more complex than standard Raven Guard gene-seed," the Apothecary explained. "The Emperor extracted only a few elements of the original data to create the Legiones Astartes strain, and about a dozen more in the Legio Custodes data we retrieved from the Terran vault. To isolate the rapid maturation and cell cloning abilities you desire, and graft them onto our own gene-seed, we have to retroactively engineer the Raven Guard gene-seed with the appropriate sequence. There are millions of sequences that might be applied, even from a single primarch strand, and there are twenty unique primarch codes to choose from."
...
"We have managed to identify at least six unique sub-complexes and protein strands geared towards physical durability, above and beyond that found in the others. In the same sample, there is a dearth of certain enhanced genes that, in our estimation, boost the cytoarchetectonic structure responsible for the development of nociceptors and proprioceptory function. The deficiency seems to be deliberate. In subject six there is a whole suite of genetic encoding derived from a non-human source, possibly canine. In subject twenty, a whole suite of growth boosting augmentations is absent. "
...
Rather than create twenty superhuman warriors, he could create thousands, hundreds of thousands of next-generation soldiers. Each would have a fraction of the power of the primarchs, it was true, but their numbers would more than make up for the difference.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
If the Emp can do it, I'm sure DAoT humanity could have done it too. After all at the end of the day, its just genetic tinkering. 40k is not hard science btw.

**Beaviz81**

DarthMarko wrote:
Beaviz81 wrote:
Void__Dragon wrote:
It isn't, actually.

Changing long-time fluff just because you don't like something is heresy as Marko tells you. And from what I have read of your comments in this post I'm quite certain you at least have a mild dislike for the Space Wolves.

"Mild" is a mild word - ofc he doesn't have problem on something which degrades his "most beloved " legion into animals...

Well, if the tables are turned and TS were de-mutating into wolves, heads would fall and BL authors would be verbally crucified .....
No offense to @Void, but some fluff changes (like this one) are giga dumb....

Well the TS with a few exceptions are just walking suits of armour, must be kind of unsettling/unrewarding slaughtering one of them and discover you only have gotten a suit of armour and some dust.. I'm 100% in agreement against the stupidity that is with people barefaced and serious telling me they believe in brother riding brother into battle.

**Void__Dragon**

DarthMarko wrote:
It is - especially when older fluff works fine (fe Ollanius Pius), reinventing new stuff while totally disergarding existing, is heresy x 1000 in my eyes....

I was responding to your assertion that it is just a "fan rant".

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Beaviz81 wrote:
Changing long-time fluff just because you don't like something is heresy as Marko tells you. And from what I have read of your comments in this post I'm quite certain you at least have a mild dislike for the Space Wolves.

What makes you think that?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarthMarko wrote:
"Mild" is a mild word - ofc he doesn't have problem on something which degrades his "most beloved " legion into animals...

Well, if the tables are turned and TS were de-mutating into wolves, heads would fall and BL authors would be verbally crucified .....
No offense to @Void, but some fluff changes (like this one) are giga dumb....

The Space Wolves always had a tendency to become animals when their mutation goes haywire, lol.

The Thousand Sons mutate into mindless tentacle monsters, and these mutations directly contributed to bringing down their legion. So I probably don't have a problem with the TS mutating.

Nah, this fluff change is interesting, and also hilarious in an out of universe sense. Like Rogal Dorn.

**Beaviz81**

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Beaviz81 wrote:
Changing long-time fluff just because you don't like something is heresy as Marko tells you. And from what I have read of your comments in this post I'm quite certain you at least have a mild dislike for the Space Wolves.

What makes you think that?

**Void__Dragon**

Beaviz81 wrote:
Well the TS with a few exceptions are just walking suits of armour, must be kind of unsettling/unrewarding slaughtering one of them and discover you only have gotten a suit of armour and some dust.. I'm 100% in agreement against the stupidity that is with people barefaced and serious telling me they believe in brother riding brother into battle.

The homoeroticism is what makes it good.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Beaviz81 wrote:
Your style of commenting. Marko also picked that up. Mind you mild is a mild word.

I comment like this on everything. My heart burns with a passion hot enough to melt the mountainside.

I've spoken to Marko many times, mostly on the opposite side of the debate. I tend to argue against Space Wolves because, well, someone has to.