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I'm more or less just starting out with airbrushing, and I've hit a serious hitch. I am using Vallejo Gray Surface Primer, and it has a consistent problem: it scratches easily- even after several layers of paint and varnishing- and after the initial scratch a simple bit of rubbing will peel it off in ribbons. This is the case with plastic models, and on metal models its even easier to strip with a touch. I've googled the issue and seen other threads stating the same thing, with a lot more people saying it works like a charm and is the greatest thing since the invention of fire.

Potential solutions I've already tried:

Not watering it down at all before spraying.

Watering it down before spraying.

24 hours dry time.

Washing models prior to spray

Using different PSI's- 20, 30, and 40

Multiple airbrush varnishes, a Liquitex glosscoat followed by a Liquitex satin.

Currently waiting for a plastic model to dry after first a Liquitex glosscoat and now a pass by a GW matte spraycan. If that doesn't work I'm out of ideas, and will have to go back to using those awful and far more expensive cans of primer.


To be clear, it does not rub off under my fingertips. It scratches, and then light rubs will peel it bald. Suggestions would be very welcome.

There's a helpful thread on this topic here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/491984.page#5036297

The only bit of advice I saw in there that I haven't tried is letting it dry for 48-72 hours rather than 24, but seeing as I have no other ideas, that's something at least.

There are other primers out there, like Mr. Surfacer (though I believe this is a brush on product) and Tamiya (which I believe is solvent based like their paints which may work better for you) if Vallejo doesn't work for you. You don't need to result to rattle cans just yet!

I've had rub off issues with Krylon and Rustoleum if I finger them too much. I use Vallejo's Acrylic Urethane primer unthinned (as it's already so thin) at about 25 psi. Used it in two different airbrushes with great results. Stuff is tough as nails. All my models are either resin or plastic, some washed, some not. The results are all the same. Bummer it's not working out, I hope you find something. This is great stuff, if you don't end up liking it, I'll take the left overs!

So not much luck with the longer drying time. By which I mean, no luck whatsoever.

Any other thoughts? Suggestions? Potential voodoo rituals to rectify the issue?

On a related note, most folks say that the Primer should be good straight out of the bottle for airbrushing, but it is far too thick for me (even with what should be excessive shaking and stirring). It's not thick by general paint standards, about as thick as your average GW paint right out of the bottle, but that's way too thick for airbrushing. I've used water to thin it, windex, and am likely to try alcohol next. If thinning the paint is what causes the problem, well, that still means I'm proper screwed I suppose, seeing as it won't make it through the airbrush without thinning.

Hmmm. It shouldn't be that thick. Maybe you got a bad bottle?

Mine is fairly thin, much like it should be, like skim milk. Only slightly thicker than normal Model Air paint. I'd either see if you can find a bottle locally that isn't so thick, or try Tamiya surface primers.

Is that Tamiya primer paint that can be airbrushed, or is is a spray can? If the latter, well...damn.

It is available in a bottle. Used straight it will fill small gaps and scratches but can also be thinned with lacquer thinner to be used in an airbrush.

Here's a link to Tamiya's website. Unfortunately it's not for sale on the site, but shouldn't be difficult to find.

http://www.tamiyausa.com/product/item.php?product-id=87075

Mr. Surfacer is another one that many scale modelers like to use.

So I decided what the hell, and got another bottle of Vallejo Primer to see if the first bottle was bunk. It was indeed properly thin out of the bottle, but scratched off just as easily.

So now I am looking at Tamiya. For one, it's a pain to find. No one here in St Louis seems to sell it, so I'll have to order online. Fine.

But then nosing around the net, I find that some folks say it is not a good primer for acrylic paints, including vallejo paints. Considering it'll cost me about $10 just to give the stuff a try, I'd like to know ahead of time if it would have any serious drawbacks.

Any input?

Havent ever used the model air grey primer before, i use the Arylic-PolyUrethane Black and white primers and they are fantastic. Used through the Airbrush straight out the bottle. They come in bigger bottles, cant remember price either but never had any problems.

OP; your expectations are wrong. The PU primers are not 'hard', sandable primers. They're for painting over, not surfacing work. Behaviour is much more like a gesso, they don't bond chemically with whatever they're applied to.

You'll also find that thin coats work much better - the paint bonds with itself much better than with plastic. Too thick a coat and you'll find it behaving like a rubbery skin, easy to peel. When you spray the primer on, it should just be a little glossy, if it looks very wet then you're putting too much on.

winterdyne wrote:
OP; your expectations are wrong. The PU primers are not 'hard', sandable primers.

I was hoping it would be the equal of GW cans of primer in terms of resilience- it's not "hard," but you can't get it off a plastic model to save your life without chemicals. But at this point I've tried dusted layers, thin layers, thick layers, cleaned models, uncleaned models, different PSI's, varnish after prime, varnish between coats, double varnish, different varnish brands, different bottles of vallejo primer...just about everything short of sacrificing a chicken, and it doesn't stand up to a fingernail. I consider that to be a pretty low expectation.

So I'm done with the vallejo primer. A lot of the pros I see online and doing tutorials swear by tehe stuff, and I can't argue for a second that the end result is pretty, but I never see them test it with a toothpick after they finish either.

What I am asking now is whether Tamiya liquid primer (through an airbrush) works as an undercoat for acryllic paints like vallejo model/air or GWs range. Also, whether it has the same risk of peeling with little effort- as I understand it, as a lacquer it should be much more resilient?

Winter is correct. Since the primers are designed to be under paint, paintability is more important than durability. Durability can be achieved afterwards with varnish. If nothing else, a quick spray of matte medium over the primer should improve things and it's cheap.

What effect are you trying to achieve where the primer coat needs to be scratch-resistant?

I've tried matte varnish over the primer with no noticeable difference.

The issue is that some times it takes less than a fingernail, and that it is not something I can just touch up with a quick brushstroke once it happens.

I need more resilience because I am painting models that I eventually intend to use, not just put on display. If just falling over on the table or brushing up against another model can ruin the paintjob, it is not suitable for my needs.

So...tamiya input, anyone?

I've not used it but I don't see any reason it wouldn't work. Might want to just go easy with it since it's a filler too.

 Badger_Bhoy wrote:
I've not used it but I don't see any reason it wouldn't work. Might want to just go easy with it since it's a filler too.

I've read once or twice in other forums when searching about for info, that acrylic paint like vallejo or GW won't work or has some issues going over it. I would assume it's because the primer is a lacquer.

I've already dropped $9 or so buying and lots of time testing and experimenting with a primer that doesn't meet my needs, and between the price of the Tamiya and lacquer thinner, that's another $16 or so. I don't wanna keep spending money only to find out it's been wasted, so yeah...

For use, it's all about the varnish. A good coat of future / klear is protective enough for most purposes.

winterdyne wrote:
For use, it's all about the varnish. A good coat of future / klear is protective enough for most purposes.

To reiterate:

Gloss varnish, both liquitex and vallejo. Gloss varnish with a later or immediate satin or matte varnish. Matte varnish immediately after priming. Matte varnish after final coat. I've tried all of these.

Vallejo primer is no longer an option.

I certainly understand your reluctance. I wish I could offer up more advice. I know Tamiya Fine Surface Primer and Mr. Primer are used by many scale modelers. Have you tried those forums?

I've hopped about in some. Most aren't using the sort of paints that I am on top of it though, and the one or two I remember saying that they were said that it didn't work well on top of that primer.

But that's just what I could turn up in some google searches.

:(

Hmmm. Did they say why? I'd be curious. You could also try Testors. The primer is good, but I'm not sure if it's available outside of a rattle can. If not, it can be decanted. It's enamel so quite durable, and I can vouch that it is compatible with acrylics. It is also sandable.

Hmmm.....

I have used a lot of primers, and have great success with the vallejo surface primer (the white).

however, it just occurred to me, are you using
THIS
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vallejo-Model-Air-Primer-VAL097/dp/B002U395VK?tag=r6010000101-21

OR

THIS:
http://www.thecombatcompany.com/hobby/paint-and-paint-sets/vallejo/model-air/primers/601-model-air-primer-grey-200ml/

The first one is NOT a primer, its a paint, the color of primer.

http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz201/Wills40k/IMG_3935_zps76d3bcb9.jpg

I'm thinking I should change the title of this thread. Vallejo is off the table.

PU primer is best in laquer based mixes. Unfortunately the gray primer is indeed meh, since its water based.
You could try fixing it by adding some white glue to the mix.
MrSurfacer is another very good airbrushable primer, but being alcohol based it makes cleaning the spraygun afterwards harder.
Alternatively, Vallejo does have non-water based primer, even a transparent one.

If you've heard of MIG products, check out his new company AK Interactive.

http://www.ak-interactive-usa.com/modulation.html#primer

Airbrush specific primers in several different colors.

Check out the rest of the line. I just started picking up some of the enamel products and a "chipping color" acrylic.
I'll try to remember to do a review of them after I use them.

 midas wrote:

MrSurfacer is another very good airbrushable primer, but being alcohol based it makes cleaning the spraygun afterwards harder.
Alternatively, Vallejo does have non-water based primer, even a transparent one.

With MrSurfacer, I have read around and am a bit confused. Most model sites where I've seen it mentioned talk about sanding and such. Does it go on so rough that it has to be sanded? Does this affect details? And do water based acrylics work with it, i.e. can I paint over it with vallejo and GW paints without problems?

The Vallejo non-water based primers...where? I can't find any such thing in my searches.

ski2060 wrote:
If you've heard of MIG products, check out his new company AK Interactive.

http://www.ak-interactive-usa.com/modulation.html#primer

Airbrush specific primers in several different colors.

Same questions- durability? Can it come off with a fingernail scratch? It looks like just another version of Vallejo- a water based polymer.

I just want to make sure I get thorough, reliable reviews before I blow money and time on another primer that doesn't work.

Mr. Surfacer has different varieties. Some with different grits and thicknesses. With scale models, especially cars, a very smooth finish is needed not just for paint but for primer. I use 1200-2000 grit and coffee filters.

The lighter primers are plenty smooth for minis though, with no sanding required. Our models don't have the same look with large, smooth, glossy surfaces. It's common practice in scale modeling to sand or buff all primers.

I have gone to cheap rattle cans of Walmart color place ..Black grey or white for primer ..it works every time with a couple of very light passes ...

morfydd wrote:
I have gone to cheap rattle cans of Walmart color place ..Black grey or white for primer ..it works every time with a couple of very light passes ...

Yeah, maybe I'm just too ignorant, but what's wrong with just using rattle cans for priming? I figured the airbrush was best used when you actually needed some precision to your work rather than just when priming.

Createx Auto Air Primer (i think its actually called sealer) is awesome, and is fairly inexpensive. You can get a bottle bottle of it for about 11 bucks. It's made for automotive use so it is pretty tough but it does take a few hours to cure fully. Not 48 hours but a day at the most and thats if you lay it on really thick which you can do with this stuff because it lays down really well and doesnt really smooth out any detail.