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Seems Bretonnia as established is an army of stark contrasts: nobles and peasants, strong cavalry and so-so infantry, colorful pageantry and mud-encrusted sackcloth. It reminds me of Monty Python, where one peasant asks "how'd you know that was the king?" and the other one answers, "because he's not covered in gak." Is there a middle ground? The yoemanry? TBH, that middle ground seems well-occupied by the Empire and I'm not saying Bretonnia should be more like the Empire in that sense. Bretonnia is the High Middle Ages to the Empire's Renaissance. It's rustic and rugged and romantic compared to the Empire's bourgeois intricacy.

Here is a link to almost the exact same thing on the Roundtable of Bretonnia.
http://www.roundtable-bretonnia.org/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=87&func=view&id=135212&catid=2&limit=15&limitstart=0

I would like to see the Grail Knights become monstrous cavalry. Same size models on bigger bases. Every Grail Knight should be rare and a big deal not just another unit of knights. I think it would fit the background better.

I think the Brets have a very good core of an army, they just need some unique and new support units (and of course some rule changes to the Bret bus).

Ideas like Yeomen hunting hound squad.

Bring back Bergerand the Brigand and his Merry men. (Dont' remember how it's spells.

Solo knights that specialize in slaying monsters(dragon slayers)

Foot knight blockS

more medival warmachines, maybe the scorpian (stuff thats good for seiges, but doesn't use gunpowder)

Maybe even a court of knights(champions that can be specialized), that can be divided among your units to lead them. and none of the knights of the realm or knights errants come with unit leaders.

Coconuts and cow catapults.

All suggestions before about seperating the nobility and the peasants ala Game of Thrones etc etc.

magical - druids,
(skirmishing?) warrior monks
crossover with woodies with drayds, The Green Man

Bretonnian's need this .

 happygolucky wrote:


Bretonnian's need this .

Dont worry, GW's love affair with chariots/big kits its almost a guarantee

To me their inspiration is the 100-years war whereas the Empire is on the verge of being an Italian renaissance army.

Make them a character based army so they tend to have awesome 2 HP leaders instead of company champions..
The character pays for and qualifies for different units...

So say 50 pts base - infantry commander - he can command a unit of men-at-arms
75 pts - knight commander - he can command a unit of knights...
75 pts - a beast commander - allows him to mount a fantastic creature - pegasi, hippogriff, etc.

The wedge formation gives them a unique ability to qualify for ranks and have some efficiency in charges so keep it
I liked the old wedge of archers also, it gave them an efficient - frontage wise - unt to address targets.

Have them invaded by the Border Princes and destroyed drop the army book and create a Cathay one

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
Have them invaded by the Border Princes and destroyed drop the army book and create a Cathay one

Border princes doing anything other than trying to survive?

Good joke

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
drop the army book and create a Cathay one

How do you like Skorne?

Squires as a sort of 'basic' foot knight, or possibly as character sidekicks.

"Templar Knights" or some such, think super heavy greatsword wielding foot knights.

Militiamen as your basic peasant longbow types.

Reliquary (think of it as an ark of the covenant type thing) shrine type chariot.

Dragonslayers - MI with a mounted option, lots of bonuses versus monsters and a ward save against breath weapons.

I like that Dragonslayer idea a lot!

Lords on a royal pegasus should be able to join pegasus knights.

There needs to be more differential between the 4 knight units - both in looks and utility.

Lords on MCs need to be able to survive more than a turn.

Special characters that cost less than 300 pts.

Crusading Knights would be pretty cool. Or Flagellants, brutally whipping themselves into combat with their foes.

ruminator wrote:There needs to be more differential between the 4 knight units - both in looks and utility.

Questing Knights are fine, and have some of the best models in the fantasy range... but Grail Knights need a new look . As they really do look just like KotR.

As for lords on an MC surviving more than a turn... thats a problem with every book these days, and it all relates back to Cannons, and GW's obsession with giving everybody move and shoot cannons... GW has this weird thing where they feel the need to release gorgeous gigantic monsters and things, then release tons of cheap things which make people not want to buy the big expensive things. Its wierd.

That said,
I definitely agree that Bretonnia needs a form of Elite Infantry. Heavy Armoured Troops on foot. Would stand apart from the peasantry, and give access to an elite horde. Heavy Armour + Handweapon and the Knights Vow Standard, and options for things like halbreds, morningstars, shields, and great weapons would make for a fun unit if it were reasonably priced!

I could see a squad of Unicorn mounted knights being a flavorful addition. Look at the rules for Silvaron (the Fay Enchantress' mount), +2 strenght on the charge (for the mount), magical attacks (for the mount), magic resistance 2, etc. Would make for an excellent body guard for the Fay Enchantress both thematically, and because she can actually take a LoS onto monsterous calvalry. And it wouldn't feel like its stealing heavily from Empire Demigriph Knights.

I really like the Idea of Grail Knights being implimented similarly to Wolf Guard in the Space Wolves dex. an Elite squad with tons of different options (and the grail vow of course) who can either be run together, or split up as squad leaders for other squads. Would be fun and flavorful.

Also I think the Grail Relaquie should get a huge massive model and kit, and change its rules. Make it similar to the Screaming Bell or Plague Furnace and have it be pushed by the Battle Pilgrims. Then just give it an Aura, perhaps a 12 inch bubble of Hatred and Blessing Save +1? Sort of a Giant portable alter to the Lady and the Glory of Bretonnia... whats not to love?

Maybe some sort of ability to use the str bonus from a Lance even if the unit doesn't charge.


Martial Prowess(x): At the beginning of a combat, on a turn in which the unit with Martial Prowess did not charge, the unit may roll a D6. If the roll is x or higher, the unit may gain the strength bonus from their lances as if they had charged this turn.

Knights Errant have Martial Prowess(6+)

KotR, Pegasus knights, and Questing Knights have Martial Prowess(5+)

Grail Knights have Martial Prowess(4+)

Heroes and Lords all have Martial Prowess(5+)


Maybe have a Vow that lets the unit the guy is in reroll their Martial Prowess roll.

 akaean wrote:

ruminator wrote:There needs to be more differential between the 4 knight units - both in looks and utility.

Also I think the Grail Relaquie should get a huge massive model and kit, and change its rules. Make it similar to the Screaming Bell or Plague Furnace and have it be pushed by the Battle Pilgrims. Then just give it an Aura, perhaps a 12 inch bubble of Hatred and Blessing Save +1? Sort of a Giant portable alter to the Lady and the Glory of Bretonnia... whats not to love?

I think the Grail Reliquae's fluff needs to be rethought completely or removed it from the book. It makes no sense to me, how do the battle pilgrims not get slaughtered the moment the Knights see them parading around with a dead Grail Knight's body.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

I think the Grail Reliquae's fluff needs to be rethought completely or removed it from the book. It makes no sense to me, how do the battle pilgrims not get slaughtered the moment the Knights see them parading around with a dead Grail Knight's body.

Thats my problem with it as well personally. I think an alter to the lady, like a temple on wheels would be a far more reasonable idea. Because yea, the current Grail Relaque model is just kinda creepy, Although I do like the actual Battle Pilgrim models. I mean it could be anything but a dead body. a chest full of relics, an alter to the lady, anything!

EDIT: Also a 12 inch bubble would be rediculous. a 6 inch bubble seems like it would be reasonable. Or at least bring it in line with Empire stuff like that.

I'd honestly love to see a Dullahan monstrous infantry kit with the next update. It would fit with the British/Scottish theme of The army, and I bet the kits would look pretty nice too

Edit: I mean a Dullahan suit of armor, like in castlevania.

baritowned wrote:
I'd honestly love to see a Dullahan monstrous infantry kit with the next update. It would fit with the British/Scottish theme of The army, and I bet the kits would look pretty nice too

Edit: I mean a Dullahan suit of armor, like in castlevania.

Except the army theme is more Medieval France in the old dark ages.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

baritowned wrote:
I'd honestly love to see a Dullahan monstrous infantry kit with the next update. It would fit with the British/Scottish theme of The army, and I bet the kits would look pretty nice too

Edit: I mean a Dullahan suit of armor, like in castlevania.

Except the army theme is more Medieval France in the old dark ages.

Aside from the names, not really. Brettonia is most heavily Arthurian legend personified with generic Chivalric themes thrown in.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

baritowned wrote:
I'd honestly love to see a Dullahan monstrous infantry kit with the next update. It would fit with the British/Scottish theme of The army, and I bet the kits would look pretty nice too

Edit: I mean a Dullahan suit of armor, like in castlevania.

Except the army theme is more Medieval France in the old dark ages.

Aside from the names, not really. Brettonia is most heavily Arthurian legend personified with generic Chivalric themes thrown in.

Except not really as well, the only major Arthurian connections are the grail knights, and those of the Spellcasters. The lore is more based around High Middle age France that isn't based around the grail quest (Course you could probably say British as well) Though it seems more French based around the period of the Carolingian era

I'd say take a lot of design inspiration from crusades era literature, arthurian legends, and maybe some of the japanese/samurai stories.

I'd add mid tier unit of infantry, footmen, squires, dismounted knights, etc. or armored sword and board guys of some kind.

peasants with bows in ridiculous numbers, peasants with rabble weaponry as well should be avail as well, but with really REALLY crappy Ld, unless accompanied. (your horde units)

no mounted commoners, period.

knights errant can still do the charge thing, give em kind of like a space wolf blood claws bezerk charge
knights of the realm can customize equipment in unit, lances v. sword and board v. spears or something.
questing knights two handers
grail knights - jesus

peg knights can be monstrous flying cav. (does that exist?)
unicorns or holy destries with lance infantry can be monstrous cav.

need their own magic style. I think blessings and faith based stuff that can buff the army, but in different ways... faith for commoners and peasants - make em stubborn, fearless, zealous, etc.
knights can get physical manifestation of favor, invulns, increase in strength, toughness, speed,

someone needs a dragon mount, like a "good" dragon.

barring that louis' pet needs to get bigger and meaner looking. Maybe a fountain statute of the lady as popemobile.

that's my three cents.

 akaean wrote:
I think an alter to the lady, like a temple on wheels would be a far more reasonable idea. Because yea, the current Grail Relaque model is just kinda creepy.

Ehhhhh, another wagon alter is not really necessary. I think Brets need more development as their own thing rather than giving them stuff other factions already have. The Grail Reliquae is a great example of something that is starkly Bretonnian. Yeah, it's creepy as hell -- from the Empire's POV. Brets should be "weird" from the Empire's POV. I think this is exactly what keeps Brets from being updated: what do you give them that the Empire doesn't already have?

That is a loaded question, because Empire already almost has everything. The whole of empire fluff is a mix between steam punk, high fanstasy, and renesaince technology. Its one of the most diverse books out there.

What Brets have that Empire doesn't have is the Overall Aethetic, and a focus on a subset of units, namely heavy cav. We have rules and abilities that make Heavy Cav viable, in a way other books are unable to do, and we have the widest selection of heavy cav around. Empire still has Heavy Cav, and yes Empire can even focus on a cav list, but that doesn't mean it will look like a Bretonnian Army, or play like one.

Trying to come up with something that Empire doesn't already have is like the Southpark episode where Butters is trying to do something that wasn't done on the Simpsons. The problem is that Empire has done very nearly everything, including units like Demigryph knights which would should have been Bretonnian instead of Empire.

What we need to think about is how can we take something which has been done (lets face it most everything has been done already by at least several books), and make them uniquely Bretonnian.

a Wagon Alter is a fine idea, as long as it is uniquely bretonnia aethetically and rules wise. Its a unit type Bretonnia doesn't have any of, and is fairly common, ranging from Corpse Carts, Warshrines, etc.

Same with Chariots, which can be very knightly.

I am saying this tongue-in-cheek. Maybe Bretonnians could be transformed into the equivalent of Grey Knights in 40k. Before hate mail pours into my inbox, let me explain:
GK has 6 variety of Grey Knights in current codex: four in power armor (purgation, purifiers, and purifiers, along with the strike squads)and two in terminator armor (terminators, and the paladins). They can easily translate to Bretonnian Knights. 4 with the Knightly virtue (some sort of young knights in the back lines tending to the artillery, knights blessed with fire, Pegasus Knights, and Kotr), 1 with the questing vow, and 1 with the grail vow.
Henchmen (40k)=peasants (whfb)
I read the fluff in the Wood elf army book, and it seems that the Lady is much more than just another spirit. With her help the Bretonnians with the WE drove back the greenskins. Maybe in this capacity, she maybe one of the "Old Ones" worshiped by the Lizardmen? If this is the case, her intervention is part of their will to drive back Chaos invading from the North.
She probably graced the Bretonnians to engineer them into a anti-Chaos people. Thus, she only chooses the most worthy to be her champions (Grail Knights=40k Paladins).
To make it more medieval-ly, I would throw in there something like the lost heir of Bretonnia is actually of the blood of Guilles. You know, all Tudor-like.
The Robin Hood idea also works. The inquisitors, Coteaz in particular, loves henchmen.
We don't need monstrous mounts, we slay them. However, imagine the base of VC's Coven Throne...But less udead-y, and more heroic. Instead of a palanquin to carry the Lord, The Lord is either on the tip, or at the back commanding the charge.
Artillery-wise, why not Naptha launchers? Ancient form of napalm used in the crusades. Fire being symbolic of purity, and purification. And, because they are launchers, they are not bows, and may not kill directly, but through the effect. It can also provide board control, blocking certain areas, or risk the flames.
Anyway, that's how I would rework them.

As a Bretonnian collector and player I would say (and in no particular order)

Foot knights
Peasant Levies
Slightly stronger men at arms
Archer wedges
Access to more artillery
Heroes with some personality (like Bertrand the Brigand)
Get rid of unit size restrictions on knights (limited to 3-15 at the moment).

I would not like to see Bretonnia just getting a whole bunch of new monsters. Of course anything can be made to 'fit' the game - it is GW's game after all - but I would like to see Bretonnia not become a second Empire.

I think that a unit of battle nuns would be fun. I imagine there must be a lot of Bretonnian widows kicking about. Maybe they join convents and then rally round to defend whatever village/castle needs defending (while the local knight is away).

Outlaws, a unit "green knights" (or 1-2 as rare choices), also, why not naiads? (Water-spirits). That would be similar to the wood elves and dryads, but add a further magical element to the army.

teddet wrote:
I think that a unit of battle nuns would be fun. I imagine there must be a lot of Bretonnian widows kicking about. Maybe they join convents and then rally round to defend whatever village/castle needs defending (while the local knight is away).

Man, I'd be a bit peeved if Brets got Warrior Nuns and Empire still doesn't have the Sisters of Sigmar as a unit.