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Horst wrote:This is how trolling happens. A few cheeky posts are made. Then they get more insulting. Eventually, we revert to our primal animal state, hurling feces at each other while shreeking with glee.
Just to add, PP also has to contend with far more competition than GW did back in the 90's. I am actually seeing Mantic as launching a bigger challenge. They are working on mass production of quality figures at a cheap price. Their kickstarter gave them the funds to improve their line and figure quality significantly.
While PP is lower cost vs GW for a whole army, Mantic makes both look bad. Why buy a Colossus when you can get a whole army from Mantic for the same price.
Kickstarter in general has allowed a lot of small companies to get funding and start competing. PP is going to have to deal with the same termites that are eating away at GW.
I suppose it's poetic justice that several former GWand PP employees are writing content for Mantic's games.
Fixed that for you. McVey worked for both and was screwed over by both.
Just to add, PP also has to contend with far more competition than GW did back in the 90's. I am actually seeing Mantic as launching a bigger challenge. They are working on mass production of quality figures at a cheap price. Their kickstarter gave them the funds to improve their line and figure quality significantly.
While PP is lower cost vs GW for a whole army, Mantic makes both look bad. Why buy a Colossus when you can get a whole army from Mantic for the same price.
Kickstarter in general has allowed a lot of small companies to get funding and start competing. PP is going to have to deal with the same termites that are eating away at GW.
I suppose it's poetic justice that several former GWand PP employees are writing content for Mantic's games.
Fixed that for you. McVey worked for both and was screwed over by both.
McVey seems to be the common denominator.
"So, do please come along when we're promoting something new and need photos for the facebook page or to send to our regional manager, do please engage in our gaming when we're pushing something specific hard and need to get the little kiddies drifting past to want to come in an see what all the fuss is about. But otherwise, stay the feth out, you smelly, antisocial bastards, because we're scared you are going to say something that goes against our mantra of absolute devotion to the corporate motherland and we actually perceive any of you who've been gaming more than a year to be a hostile entity as you've been exposed to the internet and 'dangerous ideas'. " - MeanGreenStompa
"Then someone mentions Infinity and everyone ignores it because no one really plays it." - nkelsch
And hope it doesn't turn into a third for him. Though talking with some people, it sounds like he ended up with the short end of the stick on the Sedition Wars Kickstarter.
Just to add, PP also has to contend with far more competition than GW did back in the 90's. I am actually seeing Mantic as launching a bigger challenge. They are working on mass production of quality figures at a cheap price. Their kickstarter gave them the funds to improve their line and figure quality significantly.
While PP is lower cost vs GW for a whole army, Mantic makes both look bad. Why buy a Colossus when you can get a whole army from Mantic for the same price.
Kickstarter in general has allowed a lot of small companies to get funding and start competing. PP is going to have to deal with the same termites that are eating away at GW.
I suppose it's poetic justice that several former GWand PP employees are writing content for Mantic's games.
Fixed that for you. McVey worked for both and was screwed over by both.
I keep hearing this, but what actually happened?
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
RAGE
Be sure to use logic! Avoid fallacies whenever possible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
Laughing Man wrote: IIRC, it was a disagreement with Matt Wilson over art direction in the case of Privateer, although I'm not sure on the exact details. No clue with GW.
From what I heard it was tied to the paint line. McVey and his wife had been developing a paint line for several years after being let go by GW. Part of the reason for him joining PP was to give them a paint line to compete with GW. Shortly after the P3 paint line launched, the "friction" supposedly began and Mike was shown the door. The person telling me the story said the friction was more tied to Matt's wife who runs the business side. The McVeys did not receive any payment or royalties for their paint line. Take it for what it's worth.
The GW thing was just an unceremonious kicked to the street even though he was the face of 'Eavy Metal for years.
You want to see some real symptoms? Check out the Tau thread for the pricing on the upcoming Tau models.
**shakes head**
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/27 01:16:51
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
Yeah. It’d be a mistake to think the recent prices on everything from the Hobbit forward are some sort of odd jump above the normal prices. No, they’re what all the prices are going to be come the June/July hike.
Yeah looks like the Dexs are getting a .75 cent increase in the US... so $62 in Canadian.
its not worth $30 let alone $60.
Codex: Tau Empire: $50.24
Tau Empire Battleforce: $130
Tau Empire XV8 Crisis Battlesuit Team (3): $75
Tau Empire Pathfinder Team (8): $35
Hammerhead: $57.96
Tau Empire Sun Shark Bomber/Razorshark Fighter: $65
Tau Empire XV104 Riptide Battlesuit: $85
Tau Empire XV88 Broadside Battlesuit: $50
Fireblade Cadre: $19.32
Crisis Suit commander: $42.51
Farsight: $50.24
Shi´vre (Finecast) $20.61
Sha´ng (Finecast): $16.75
Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
EDIT:
From the WD pics I can see:
Riptide $100
Broadside $60
Crisis suit team $90
Sun shark $80
Pathfinders $40
What I can assume based on like prices:
Codex $62 to 65
Farsight $60 (very likely as the broadsides are the same price)
Hammerhead/Sky ray $65 to $80
Crisis commander $50
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/27 06:41:45
Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
Oh by the by, I never even bought the 6th Edition Rule books. I looked at the trend of the last decade and went "NO THANK YOU".
It's pretty tragic really, I could afford it, I just don't think it offers value for money. I can buy alot of other stuff from many different manufacturers, or maybe support a couple Kick-Starter Projects and still have money left over to buy a whole new Flames of War Army or my own Cold War stuff.
A tactical Squad and Rhino gives little change from £50. I need a minimum of 2 just for troops, so thats £100, and that gets me 450 pts. I pay £108 for Battlefront Boxed army and I get a Complete Army of 1500pts.
So as a thrifty gamer, I'll still spend £200, but I'll spend more on Terrain and little odds and ends (like basing materials) or Cases. Overall I get more for my money from other Systems and Manufacturers.
Collecting Forge World 30k????? If you prefix any Thread Subject line on 30k or Pre-heresy or Horus Heresy with [30K] we can convince LEGO and the Admin team to create a 30K mini board if we can show there is enough interest!
I agree. I bought the intro game box for the softcover rulebook and sold the models. The main rulebook is too expensive and too heavy, too much of it is recycled fluff and so on.
mwnciboo wrote: I find it amazing that Battlefront of "Flames of War" Fame, seem to be able to create a new book every 2 months, with several in development concurrently.
Some of these books are much bigger than current Codex size. Flames of War is one of the most balanced systems around. They are getting a little more corporate but their release schedule is much better than GW.
GW needs to shrink, cull the Middle management, chop off the High street Retail chain, in favour on 15-20 Regional centres with bigger premises and numerous tables and facilities (Ideally near the highstreet but maybe upper floors/ basements where rents are cheaper) and become more venue orientated. They also need to support the FLGS scene more. This is a slow, agonising Death - Finecast was a Fiasco it damaged the reputation for good quality products and the price hike was a final insult.
Games Workshop Customer Service Training - "Ah good sir, I see you buying a piece of mis-cast Crap from our Flavour-of-month-army-codex, I'll just add 15% to your bill. A recession you say? No I think you'll find the economy is doing wonderfully. Anything else today, nothing for little Johnny? Maybe a £200 Starter set? No, ok. But would sir kindly stand still in the doorway, it will assist me in my run up, otherwise how can I kick you accurately in the balls?"
This. The company needs to be taken back to private ownership, it needs to cull the middle management as you say, and they need to alter the store model to be a mixture of a modest number of big "mini-Warhammer World" type locations, with something along the lines of the old Outrider programme and a more forgiving set of trade terms in order to ensure GW products feature prominently in indie stores. With the company in private hands rather than reliant on investors, decisions can be made which will drive long-term growth, rather than scrabbling around every year to scrape together enough money to pay dividends regardless of the effect on the company; GW might have needed to go public to get as big as it is today back in the 90's, but crowd funding means that niche companies no longer have to homogenise themselves and their products in order to appeal to the markets to ensure growth, and GW are possibly the best placed mini company to take advantage of it due to their existing production base and the ability to advertise the campaign in stores, WD, and their own website.
Sadly, without the first event(a return to private ownership), none of the others is likely to happen, and given the way that the company has been set up so that Kirby can either bleed it dry at his leisure, or will hoover up massive amounts of the company's capital if he's forced out, I doubt anyone will be able to take the company private again until after it's already sinking and the current crop of rats are beginning to flee.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
Not too sure if it would require leaving the LSE to become whatnit could be. Though the most likely way that would happen also would keep it under the control of an investment firm, so you would still have profits being the primary factor.
However, what you often see happen in niche businesses like these (and part of GWs problem) is that the primary investors say to the management...
"We dont understand what you do, or your customers. We dont care what you do or how you do it, as long as you keep making us a profit."
Of course the current management is probably under similiar freedom from their major investors...of course, the problem ends up being that the current management sees GW corporate stores and price hikes as the best way to make that profit.
Cutting the retail back, working with LGS, conventions, online communities, 3rd party retailers and the rest would (IMO) turn the same or higher profits...and the investors will be happy all the same.
Sean_OBrien wrote: Not too sure if it would require leaving the LSE to become whatnit could be. Though the most likely way that would happen also would keep it under the control of an investment firm, so you would still have profits being the primary factor.
However, what you often see happen in niche businesses like these (and part of GWs problem) is that the primary investors say to the management...
"We dont understand what you do, or your customers. We dont care what you do or how you do it, as long as you keep making us a profit."
Of course the current management is probably under similiar freedom from their major investors...of course, the problem ends up being that the current management sees GW corporate stores and price hikes as the best way to make that profit.
Cutting the retail back, working with LGS, conventions, online communities, 3rd party retailers and the rest would (IMO) turn the same or higher profits...and the investors will be happy all the same.
I can't agree, listed companies have entirely different goals, methods, and cultures and very little of those are conducive to running a niche company who place high value on customer retention. GW is actually a perfect example of how going public, for want of a better term, "corrupts" the company over the long term; in the beginning, yes, the investors are typically hands-off, but eventually some of them do look into the business, and they see something completely alien to the way things are done in the City. Bit by bit, the culture in the company's management changes to meet the expectations of the investors, profit becomes a bigger and bigger motivator, until eventually either the company and product go fully mainstream and are bought out by a larger conglomerated entity, or the people in charge suck out every last dreg of money they can and leave the company to go under.
Once the process has begun, the best that the consumers who like the product can do is hope that either A; when the product goes fully mainstream, it retains enough of what made it special as a niche product that they can still enjoy it, or B; when the company does eventually get driven over a cliff, the remains can be bought up cheap and rebuilt into a niche company again by someone with a genuine passion for the task.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
What about having Dakka set up a kickstarter of sorts, where members chip in money... and Dakka buys shares in GW. No time limit on it, just an ever-growing fund of money Dakka members chip in to acquire an ever-increasing amount of GW stock with the eventual goal of gaining a significant - or even a majority - share. Dividends would be shared back out to those who paid in in proportion to their investments, minus a fee to cover Dakka's costs in doing the footwork.
Yeah, I know, impractical as heck and probably wouldn't work. But it would be neat for Dakka to have REAL influence on where the game is going, wouldn't it?
liturgies of blood wrote: If you want to change GW put some money into a kickstarter to BUY GW.
Call it the GW fan trust or whatever.
Any attempts at a united front to a boycott with fail and gw won't notice.
And any attempts at a "GW fan trust" are going to be as pathetically disjointed as the current corporate management.
I cannot think of more than maybe ten people from this forum I would feel comfortable with having any kind of managerial position at a major corporation. I certainly would not want to see a corporation being run by a "collective" that cannot even make up their mind on whether or not a certain rule works as it is written or if there is some kind of "intention" for the rule.
DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+ Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics
Once the process has begun, the best that the consumers who like the product can do is hope that either A; when the product goes fully mainstream, it retains enough of what made it special as a niche product that they can still enjoy it, or B; when the company does eventually get driven over a cliff, the remains can be bought up cheap and rebuilt into a niche company again by someone with a genuine passion for the task.
Assuming GW dies, I think option B is probably where it will land. There certainly isn't a shortage of people who would love to take the WHFB / WH40K intellectual propety in their own direction. If and when GW ever does begin to circle the drain, they'll be able to sell that off and net the shareholders a tidy sum. Let's just hope that who-ever buys it doesn't ALSO cut out the independent retailers.
2500 pts
Horst wrote:This is how trolling happens. A few cheeky posts are made. Then they get more insulting. Eventually, we revert to our primal animal state, hurling feces at each other while shreeking with glee.
Why would anyone think a private buyout (management or otherwise) would make GW less focused on profitability and performance?
Given these are typically funded by debt there is an even greater incentive to wring every last cent out of the company in the short term - either to meet debt servicing costs or reduce gearing.
PLC wrote: Why would anyone think a private buyout (management or otherwise) would make GW less focused on profitability and performance?
Given these are typically funded by debt there is an even greater incentive to wring every last cent out of the company in the short term - either to meet debt servicing costs or reduce gearing.
Also, I don't trust any of you fethers to run it properly.
PLC wrote: Why would anyone think a private buyout (management or otherwise) would make GW less focused on profitability and performance?
Given these are typically funded by debt there is an even greater incentive to wring every last cent out of the company in the short term - either to meet debt servicing costs or reduce gearing.
Yup. I would argue that floating actually helped GW get out of the moribund, stereotypical, war gaming niche and enabled the development of their ranges to the point of adding plastic manufacture,expanded ranges and a larger presence. No matter what it has become now.
Without becoming so big GW could already have been rolled or swallowed up by a bigger entity. If this were the case I would hazard that a few obscure mentions of a game called Warhammer would be made during a game of D&D or some Civil War/WW2 game.
I'd like to think I'd make a decent job of running the business.
The 1st thing I would do, is give up the hobby altogether.
I know enough about miniatures etc, I don't need that clouding my judgement by getting down in the weeds with the products.
I would want to reduce costs massively, the overheads are far too high.
1. One Man stores would be annihilated,
2. Space Marines sell themselves, always have ,always will. Stop advertising them, advertise and market all the other systems and races. Reduce time spent on SM's by at least 1/3. Focus on 2 to 1 Codex Release, e.g Two races, then one SM one, no more Dark Angels followed by Space Pups etc .
3. Start a Specialist Games Studio that focuses on spin-offs and very popular games of yester-year.
4. Embrace community content by building a GW third Party Alliance (SRM model) - Offer third parties the chance to buy limited licenses or even grant IP amnesty/ free permission to Third Parties who produce very high Quality Products (Things like Chapter House or Anvil Industries). Offer to distribute their products through your retail arm (win-win)
5. Embrace Community and Media based Content, even helping fund things like FLASHGITZ.net or other things such as Fanbased game mods, or Things like the "INQUISITOR" film.
6. Build a Web-based content feedback system - E.g Imagine KICKSTARTER but everyone votes on possible GW products depending on Pledges or votes just what items GW make. (THIS WOULD BE KEY TO THE SPECIALIST GAME STUDIO SURVIVAL). It would be limited to stop everyone spamming it with endless "SPACE MARINES PLS".
7. Look to build bridges with Major Content Providers or Bastions of the Community "BOLS" "DAKKADAKKA" etc etc help them with their costs or offering other incentives but don't lock them into "Exclusive GW content only" this is counter productive.
8. Make Games Day Better, get all your third Party Developers involved, make it cheaper, add more content and get the Fanbase more involved. (Go to E3 and see how they roll - See if you can off-set costs by pairing up with another Company like BATTLEFRONT).
9. Get an In-house Video Game studio - Work on all kinds of titles (Simple one's for Smart Phones like an updated Final Liberation or complex Super MMO's).
It's all about the community, 40k is dying where I play and it's precisely because we are all drifting away from it. It's like Hornby Railways or Scalextric, there are a few die hard fans but most of us are moving on.
Ambivalence is the worst enemy, Hatred or anger shows Passion and at least you are engaged, ambivalence or apathy is the real killer.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/27 20:03:08
Collecting Forge World 30k????? If you prefix any Thread Subject line on 30k or Pre-heresy or Horus Heresy with [30K] we can convince LEGO and the Admin team to create a 30K mini board if we can show there is enough interest!
Yodhrin wrote: I can't agree, listed companies have entirely different goals, methods, and cultures and very little of those are conducive to running a niche company who place high value on customer retention. GW is actually a perfect example of how going public, for want of a better term, "corrupts" the company over the long term; in the beginning, yes, the investors are typically hands-off, but eventually some of them do look into the business, and they see something completely alien to the way things are done in the City. Bit by bit, the culture in the company's management changes to meet the expectations of the investors, profit becomes a bigger and bigger motivator, until eventually either the company and product go fully mainstream and are bought out by a larger conglomerated entity, or the people in charge suck out every last dreg of money they can and leave the company to go under.
Once the process has begun, the best that the consumers who like the product can do is hope that either A; when the product goes fully mainstream, it retains enough of what made it special as a niche product that they can still enjoy it, or B; when the company does eventually get driven over a cliff, the remains can be bought up cheap and rebuilt into a niche company again by someone with a genuine passion for the task.
I really don't see their problems tied to their shareholders - rather the man at the top. While he might be motivated now more by creating a golden parachute for the next year or two when he retires - it isn't necessarily indicative of how publicly traded companies in the same class (niche industries - not necessarily games) are run. On the contrary, most of them which I have seen tend to have a hands off approach provided that they continue to make reasonable numbers year after year.
Kirby though seems intent on the idea that it is only the GW stores which grew the company throughout the 1990s and that new customers coming in through GW stores will continue to do so. The price hikes that happen year after year are a result of that strategy failing and needing to inflate the sales to maintain the numbers for the next year so that the share holders don't toss him out. Again, while I can understand how it might seem like that is a result of the pressures from the share holders - I think it is more an issue relating to the person and his wrong headed strategy.
If you look at a property like Magic the Gathering, it is still largely the same game as it was 20 years ago. They still host tournaments. Wizards of the Coast is left alone by Hasbro to make their own decisions (for better or for worse). Most investors understand when they don't understand something - but at the same time recognize when there is money to be made.
If the company were to go completely tits up though, it would likely be purchased by an IP clearing house rather than an individual who is interested in the game or miniatures. The license fees and potential license fees would make them more interested in it and likely put it out of the reach of most individuals.
If you look at a property like Magic the Gathering, it is still largely the same game as it was 20 years ago. They still host tournaments. Wizards of the Coast is left alone by Hasbro to make their own decisions (for better or for worse). Most investors understand when they don't understand something - but at the same time recognize when there is money to be made.
One major note that doesn't make that comparison work. MtG has a built in shelf life on their product. After 18 months, the vast majority of cards become worthless and are no longer useable except in open play. And that is not where the majority of tournament play is. WotC has been able to convince their player base that it is in their best interests to essentially completely reinvest in their game ever 18 months. Plus, playing the game recently, it is fairly different from when I played it in the early 90's. And WotC has changed the game a bit every expansion or else it would have stagnated and withered away like almost all other CCGs.
As for shareholders, we have all been saying how the changes GW does always look good to an MBA on paper. They are likely meant to calm the investment houses that have tens of millions invested in GW. If the top three investment houses were to lose faith in Kirby they would have the power to boot him and put someone in that they would think could do a better job. And having two retired family friends who worked in upper management at publicly traded companies, they openly talked about the pressure from investment houses on the need for short term gains. As it stands, Kirby is sitting on 2 million shares worth $20 million US. I don't exactly see how he is going to significantly pad his retirement further with a few more years of dividends. And if he is anything like these two, he isn't going to retire. He's going to keep working till they kick him out.
silent25 wrote: MtG has a built in shelf life on their product. After 18 months, the vast majority of cards become worthless and are no longer useable except in open play.
silent25 wrote: MtG has a built in shelf life on their product. After 18 months, the vast majority of cards become worthless and are no longer useable except in open play.
Just two, but there's 5 different dual lands like the latter card, the moxes, the black lotus... None of them are Standard legal.
Ok, you pointed to two cards. And as I bolded above, I'm not claiming all cards become worthless. Most do. At my local game store there is a section in back of $0.10 rares from out of print sets. Occasionally people leave some of the cards they are looking through and I see them remembering when they were $20 cards. Every expansion is another 100 plus cards. Out of each set how many retain their value once they leave standards play. Only a few I'm pretty sure.
And for cards that have kept their value, the original Alpha, Beta, and First set are the top money cards.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I will also note that I made a very nice penny selling off some of those cards from those sets. But there were also logs of cards that I ended up throwing away because they were worthless.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/03/27 22:06:22
mwnciboo wrote: Oh by the by, I never even bought the 6th Edition Rule books. I looked at the trend of the last decade and went "NO THANK YOU".
It's pretty tragic really, I could afford it, I just don't think it offers value for money.
This is exactly the boat that I'm in. I've got tons of spare cash right now, but I didn't get a single thing from the new Chaos release respite having literally half a chaos army. I really dislike the aesthetics of the new stuff - it's all either very busy, or it looks all GI Joe toyish. I could live with the reduced aesthetics if they were cheap - I could chop them up and convert them - but there's no way I'm paying what they want for such ugly models.
It's not so much that I quit more that I'm simply waiting for something worth buying, and these guys really haven't been delivering. I think IA12 might be the last hurrah for 40K for me, if it looks good, and I was not impressed much with the Necron Bomber so far, though I remain hopeful.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/27 22:08:09
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2500 pts
