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 Peregrine wrote:

Sentinels are terrible. Sentinels with flamers on them are even worse. They cost way too many points for the firepower they bring, they die way too quickly, and they take up the same slot as the Vendetta, the best (and mandatory) unit in the codex.

Considering that you can put three Vendetta's in one squadron, I don't think the FA slots are a problem unless you want to run nine Vendettas under 2000 points. You can easily have a Vendetta or two and some Sentinels. And yes, more Vendettas might be technically better, but also boring. Granted, putting flamers on sentinels do not sound like a great idea.

And one thing about spammy lists that get as many as possible of the current top units. Codices change. IG book is quite old and it will be getting an update in year or two. And everyone knows that Vendettas are going to get nerfed hard. Having a varied and versatile collection of models ensures that your army remains decent in any edition or version of the codex. Not to mention you won't be bored to tears painting the exact same models over and over again.

 Crimson wrote:

Considering that you can put three Vendetta's in one squadron, I don't think the FA slots are a problem unless you want to run nine Vendettas under 2000 points. You can easily have a Vendetta or two and some Sentinels. And yes, more Vendettas might be technically better, but also boring.

This is pretty poor advice. Stacking things into squadrons is something you do only when you have to. It makes the 3 Vendettas easier to kill, harder to move, over-kill every target they shoot at and limits the number of targets they can shoot at each turn, whilst simultaneously increasing your opponent's firing efficiency at your Vendettas.

Just no. Spending 3 FA choices on 3 fliers is far superior to 1 slot with 3 fliers and a few sentinels.

Whether or not they're boring is a matter of opinion and irrelevant to tactics.

On the notion of a new IG book ruining choices. It's highly unlikely. Good choices remain good, and fliers are still dominating. The DFTS has shown that GW isn't attempting to drastically change the rules of the Vendetta which is a relatively new model. Not to mention if there was a change, FW still allows access to the Vendetta with the older rules.

 Peregrine wrote:

Default option: infantry squad with lascannon and melta/plasma, with 2-4 squads combined into a single one and given a commissar. Cheap and not completely inefficient while they hold your objectives. PCS are best used with 4x flamers in a Vendetta as a late-game scoring unit to drop somewhere useful.

I don't get the Lascannon thing. Sure, it is a really good weapon, but what are you doing with your lasguns then? Lasguns kill infantry. It would make sense to give the squad a heavy weapon that compliment that role.

And yes, I get giving the ablative wounds to your big guns, but as a blanket rule for arming all your infantry squad that seems a bit too limiting to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Griddlelol wrote:

Just no. Spending 3 FA choices on 3 fliers is far superior to 1 slot with 3 fliers and a few sentinels.

It is not if you like Sentinels.

Whether or not they're boring is a matter of opinion and irrelevant to tactics.

But not irrelevant to army building.

Yes, it is important to tell new players about relative strengths of different units. I am sure the fact that Vendettas are better than Sentinels has been sufficiently communicated at this point. However, I think the hyperbolic tone is unnecessary and misleading. Vendettas are not 'mandatory'* nor Sentinels 'worthless'.

(*I mean why would you say that to a new player, there are actually mandatory units in this game, one HQ and two Troops. Saying that Vendettas are mandatory is just confusing.)

On the notion of a new IG book ruining choices. It's highly unlikely. Good choices remain good, and fliers are still dominating. The DFTS has shown that GW isn't attempting to drastically change the rules of the Vendetta which is a relatively new model.

GW did not want to invalidate existing codices. Only onits that got substantial changes were ones from WD. New codex can totally alter the usefulness of the unit. This has happened many times.

Not to mention if there was a change, FW still allows access to the Vendetta with the older rules.

What? FW rules get occasionally updated too.

Oh all vehicle squadrons have to fire on the same target?

So 3 leman russ or basilisks as a heavy weapon choice all have to be in coherency and fire on the same target?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
I don't get the Lascannon thing. Sure, it is a really good weapon, but what are you doing with your lasguns then? Lasguns kill infantry. It would make sense to give the squad a heavy weapon that compliment that role.

Crimson do you think it's a good compromise to have Autocannons for a mix between anti troop and anti light vehicle (up to AV13)? I don't know why I am even asking since I have made my bed and have to lie in it lol

Personally I think autocannons are good compromise, I've been lurking the forums here for awhile and seen so many threads debating both the lascannon and autocannon. Personally how I see it just take both, only taking lascannons hasn't always worked out for me.

 Crimson wrote:

It is not if you like Sentinels.

See previous comment about tactics.

But not irrelevant to army building.

However this is a tactics thread in a tactics forum.

Vendettas are not 'mandatory'* nor Sentinels 'worthless'.

I've never made that claim. I stated that your advice on filling up a FA slot with 3 vendettas was awful advice, which it was.

New codex can totally alter the usefulness of the unit. This has happened many times.

There's very few examples of units being so drastically altered that they've become significantly less useful. Fliers are strong. A points increase is most likely the only thing that the Vendetta will see, based on previous experiences in codex updates in 6th.

What? FW rules get occasionally updated too.

Indeed, however there has just been an update for Imperial Armour. I'm certain that won't be happening again between now and the next IG codex.

Terminators got nerfed loads in 5th Editions. No more 2x Assault cannons in a 5 man squad!

foxyfennec wrote:
Terminators got nerfed loads in 5th Editions. No more 2x Assault cannons in a 5 man squad!

And yet they're still prevalent in many lists. All you're doing is proving my point that codex changes don't make units irrelevant, but rather alter their role.

 Griddlelol wrote:

I've never made that claim. I stated that your advice on filling up a FA slot with 3 vendettas was awful advice, which it was.

Yes, it was Peregrine. And you're right that squadroning weakens Vendettas. Still, two Vendettas is quite sufficient number for under 2000 point army.

There's very few examples of units being so drastically altered that they've become significantly less useful. Fliers are strong. A points increase is most likely the only thing that the Vendetta will see, based on previous experiences in codex updates in 6th.

Weren't Flamers of Tzeentch nerfed from ridiculously overpowered to nearly useless? I'm not sure, maybe people were exaggerating... And Vendettas probably will remain useful in the future too, but necessarily not so useful that you want to fill all your FA slots with them. Besides, spamming one OP unit is both boring and not terribly sportsmanlike.

 Crimson wrote:
Still, two Vendettas is quite sufficient number for under 2000 point army.

I usually run 2-3 in a 1500pt list. 2000 with double FA if I had the models I'd be using 6 fliers. Necrons are common. People need to handle them.

Weren't Flamers of Tzeentch nerfed from ridiculously overpowered to nearly useless?

They're an anomaly in that they had a WD update. Those things never last for long. They're not useless now, people just cry a lot when something incredibly broken becomes balanced.

And Vendettas probably will remain useful in the future too, but necessarily not so useful that you want to fill all your FA slots with them. Besides, spamming one OP unit is both boring and not terribly sportsmanlike.

Ok then: Tell me how without using forge world that I can counter fliers without using Vendettas. Also show me a way I can get my scoring units to my opponent's table half intact and able to hold an objective without using Vendettas.
There is no realistic way to do it. The Vendetta is essential in competitive play. It fulfils a role that IG can't do without it. Maybe in your local meta fliers aren't an issue, but at tournaments, they are. Maybe in your local meta people will let chimerae unload troops in their back field, but in mine, they won't.

Why is bringing possibly the coolest looking model in the IG codex boring? Why is bringing 3 Sentinels some how more exciting than 3 flying transports? I think the starwars ATST rip offs look like lanky chickens. It just so happens that those ugly-ass models are also terrible.

How is being a "sportsman" playing with a below par list? You don't see rugby teams saying "oh our prop is bigger than than their prop, better swap him out for a smaller guy to make it fair." Nor a batter allowing himself to be bowled out in cricket. Sportsmanship is how you interact with your opponent, not deliberately hamstringing yourself.

This has of course to do with environment, and in a really competitive serious tournament you certainly should go with all Vendettas. But I don't think most people play like that... It's much more casual. We all know that codices are not perfectly balanced. Some things are just way too good for their points. Everybody knows that Vendetta is clearly one of those things. Personally I would not feel good spamming them in a friendly, casual environment. Like I wouldn't take three Helldrakes either. But this is not about right or wrong. If you and the people you play with enjoy more competitive style, then that's how you should play.

And I didn't say you should take all Sentinels and no Vendettas at all. That would be spammy and boring too (and also bad.) But to me more varied list that has nice mixture of different units is more interesting both to play and play against.

 Peregrine wrote:

foxyfennec wrote:
Is there ever a point in fielding valkyries in your opinion?

No. Valkyries just give you anti-infantry (the ordnance rule on hellstrike missiles ruins them and means that the rocket pod upgrade is mandatory) which is something you have everywhere in the codex. Vendettas cost the same but give you awesome (and extremely efficient) AA and anti-tank, which is incredibly rare. Unless you play in a really bizarre metagame where none of your opponents bring flyers or vehicles the Vendetta is the automatic choice.

And how do you think infantry platoons should be made? Should voxes be used? Heavy weapons? Etc

Default option: infantry squad with lascannon and melta/plasma, with 2-4 squads combined into a single one and given a commissar. Cheap and not completely inefficient while they hold your objectives. PCS are best used with 4x flamers in a Vendetta as a late-game scoring unit to drop somewhere useful.

Should PCS have 4xflamers and a Bolter on the officer? So the flamers can wound up to 24"?

foxyfennec wrote:

Should PCS have 4xflamers and a Bolter on the officer? So the flamers can wound up to 24"?

The officer already has a pistol, 12" is usually adequate...unless of course you throw a frag grenade.

My pyro-pcs generally has 1 lasgun instead of a flamer anyway. If they deep strike you can rarely fire all 4 flamers in my experience.

Is adding a heavy flamer to a flame ccs worth it?

20pts for a str:5 ap:4 template weapon that ignores the above average BS of the veterans in the squad? It also requires you to be in your enemy's butthole for it to have effect.

I'm not trying to be rude, but think about it rather than asking immediately. It's better to consider these things rather than looking for other people to spoon feed you information.

When considering an upgrade, think about it's usefulness, the points it cost and how it synergises with the unit and or list.
A CCS has BS4, and so it's best to choose weapons that take advantage of this. They can also issue orders to themselves such as BID and FOMT. So you want to make use of that. Your Warlord is often in this squad to, so you need to think about how you can keep him alive. The heavy flamer makes no use of any of these.

 Griddlelol wrote:
I'm not trying to be rude, but think about it rather than asking immediately. It's better to consider these things rather than looking for other people to spoon feed you information.

What was the point of this paragraph other than to be rude? The rest was fine. The third paragraph was more than sufficient without this. Mixing constructive criticism with destructive criticism detracts heavily from the constructive part. Try to be more sensitive. If I knew you had disdain for my questions I wouldn't have asked. I thought you liked to give advice.

It's not disdain for questions, it's trying to get people to think for themselves. Asking "is X good?" is a great way to stop thinking and thus limit your choices. Wouldn't you rather consider things for what they are instead of being told answers? Isn't thinking for yourself a great way to make you understand the game better?
Trying to expand someone's mind is not rude, but I tried to mitigate my bluntness by prefixing with that. I apologise for any offence taken, it was not my intention.

If your question was:
"I can't decide if heavy flamers are good or not for my CCS. Their damage looks good on paper but I've never seen one used before. Why don't people use them?"
It would appear that you're thinking, and instead of getting a yes or no answer, you'd open a discussion which in turn would aid your critical thinking skills and your skill at army building within 40k.

My question meant that.

I did think about it.

I thought 15 points more to pierce a wider range of units. Easier wounds. The easier wound rolls are always good, but are there enough enemies out there with a 4+ save for this to be useful against? I didn't actually consider the BS element, thanks for highlighting it. Now I understand why you take meltas or plasmas in company command squads but flamers in platoon command squads. Though I am considering flamers in a company command squad anyway due to my model selection.

I am not entirely sure because I don't own every codex. I know Eldar have a few, IG have a few, Space Marines have scouts but they're barely ever seen. How likely am I to come across Eldar armies? Not really sure. This guy on the forum seems to have reasons for his choices, so I'll ask the question "Is adding a heavy flamer to a flame ccs worth it?" to get his opinion, which will probably sway me because I respect his opinion. He is obviously a lot more experienced than myself.

I do think

The third paragraph needed no prefix, it had great pointers to think about and wasn't at all rude.

Posting this pasta again because 5 man snaps can be decent:
2 Cadian battle forces with 8 5 man snaps will give you:

2* CCS w/ HW + Banner
2* PCS w/ HW
8* IS w/ HW + SW

You also have the the potential for about 10-12 more additional special weapons (with conversions and the pucker ones you get from the command sprue). You also have the sentinels left over for attempts at going "This is my Sabre defence platform" if you wanted.
For ~£200, which is around 850 points of reasonable footblobyness (depending on upgrades).
You'll have to convert special weapons but we've got a thread for that, http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/467370.page

If going for mech/air you may just need 1 battle force and 4 5 man snaps, haven't done the maths though.
Edit:
Done the maths for Mech
1 Battle force, 4 5 man snaps, 5 Chimera's will give you
CCS, 4* Plasma. Chimera, 165
4x Veterans, 3* Plasma, Chimera, 680pts

At around £220.

Plasma spam only because we can convert lasguns into plasma's using lasgun bits (chop of the stock and use the shoulder rest as the coils).
If you want melta's you'll only be able to scratch up maybe 7 total (chop up the flamers and use them on the lasguns).

If buying using online discounts you can see those costs go down a bit.

foxyfennec wrote:


I thought 15 points more to pierce a wider range of units. Easier wounds. The easier wound rolls are always good, but are there enough enemies out there with a 4+ save for this to be useful against? I didn't actually consider the BS element, thanks for highlighting it. Now I understand why you take meltas or plasmas in company command squads but flamers in platoon command squads. Though I am considering flamers in a company command squad anyway due to my model selection.

I am not entirely sure because I don't own every codex. I know Eldar have a few, IG have a few, Space Marines have scouts but they're barely ever seen. How likely am I to come across Eldar armies? Not really sure. This guy on the forum seems to have reasons for his choices, so I'll ask the question "Is adding a heavy flamer to a flame ccs worth it?" to get his opinion, which will probably sway me because I respect his opinion. He is obviously a lot more experienced than myself.

With IG, BS is one of the more important aspects... It is hard to over look. You do not have to learn all of the other codexes (right away), but you /need/ to know your own codex. Learning the codex has two routes, IMO... building lists and playing games. I like coming to Dakka to hone my knowledge and correct mistakes I am making. It forces you to double check everything in the BRB and the Codex, which drills the rules into your head.

Griddlelol is right to ask you to think about your question before posting it. You also have to realize this is the internet... we can not read your mind, we do not hear your voice's inflection on how you ask the question. All we see is "Is adding a heavy flamer to a flame ccs worth it?". We have to wonder how to respond to a question like that because to us, the answer is obvious... why waste that BS 4 with template weapons? Is he serious? Has he even looked at the book? Does he realize how close he has to be with his HQ to even attack with them? Is he honestly considering blowing 20pts on a heavy flamer? WTF is he thinking? In other words, you also have to put forth alittle effort to show us you are indeed thinking. You ask blunt questions, be ready for blunt answers.

For example... what the heck are you asking when you type this?

I know Eldar have a few, IG have a few, Space Marines have scouts but they're barely ever seen. How likely am I to come across Eldar armies? Not really sure.

Who has a few what? How do you know you will never see an Eldar list? What are you assuming? I have no idea... none... are you still talking flamers?

I think he's referring to 4+ armor -- i.e. something that will justify paying for an AP4 weapon.

Then he is answering his own question... you don't get flamers to ignore armor, you get them to force your opponent to fail armor checks because your making sure your hitting. Even terminators can roll 1s. Or you get 4 plasma guns and you Rapid Fire 8 shots into the Terminators and it forces /you/ to not roll 1s to hit (Get's Hot!) and to Wound. Either way... it is about rolling 1s.

Orks, IG, Demons and Eldar are all effected by AP 4. I think Tau, Dark Eldar, and Nids are also effected by it for the most part. It is safe to say power armor codexes are about the only ones who will get armor saves consistently, while the other dexs only have a few units (lets just say less than half to be safe) have units that get armor saves.

text removed.
Reds8n

Quick interjection. Heavy weapons. There is no need to fully commit to one particular weapon as each gun has a little plug that fits into the tri-pod snuggly. No glue needed. So play with your autocannons and then try lascannons and see which is better for you.

Oh and when you order/buy your stuff maybe get some 1/8 X 1/16 magnets and a 1/8 hand drill and magnetize! Sure it's scary and a little extra work but you're saving so much money and time not having to buy, paint and assemble more models.

By the horizontal red tube is the gun magnet.


Even got some on the side of the tank for the sponson if I wanted to add that.


And good ol' Captain Magnet torso.


The guardsmen were very easy to do, as the arms all have little dimples right where you need to drill. There are plenty of guides online and I can attempt to answer questions too.

foxyfennec wrote:

I thought 15 points more to pierce a wider range of units. Easier wounds. The easier wound rolls are always good, but are there enough enemies out there with a 4+ save for this to be useful against?

I think, and I believe most people think that the heavy flamer is drastically over costed for IG. It's a shame really. Heavy Flamers can be pretty decent, and despite someone else's response, I do believe that you take the ap of a template weapon into account (that's one reason that you see a Heldrake with an AP:3 flamer in every chaos list, but not a Hellhound with an AP:4 flamer in every IG list!).
It's just that most of the things that will get near you with either shrug off the damage, or could be killed just as efficiently with 2 flamers (and even better 4 flamers!) 4+ isn't a great save so you can afford to just swamp them with wounds.

Though I am considering flamers in a company command squad anyway due to my model selection.

These are great in Platoon Command Squads. They have BS3 and so the flamer is the perfect option for them. Plus, they can't really do much else anyway, considering they're 5 t3 models with a t-shirt save. Slap 'em in a flier, drop 'em off near an objective camper and flamer the hell out of them. If you're close enough you can easily wipe out 5 or 6 SM with 4 flamers. Gants and Guard on the other hand will die in droves.

I am not entirely sure because I don't own every codex.

Me neither I've not played against an Eldar player since...1999? 2001? Something like that. I have no idea what they're like now. Dreading the day I come across one at a tournament. DE on the other hand I've found are pretty common.

I use those cheap cadians, you will always need guys with lasguns. You can make them vets with a paint job, since GW hasn't given us a veteran kit. You can also make them penal legionaries, or even storm troopers with a bit of snipping, green stuff, and glue. So don't be afraid to buy them.

You can also run anything you want, and win. I played in an RTT last weekend, where there were 3 IG armies, including mine. One had 2 Vendettas, (me,) and came in 3rd. One had none, but had ratlings and 4 penal legions, and came in 2nd. The last one had 3 Vendettas and a Thunderbolt, and came in 5th. Remember when you play, *you* are the one that wins, not your list.

If you like tanks, get a bunch, that's how I started IG. I have a couple I don't use much, like the Hellhound, and some I take almost every game, the Manticore and LR Exterminator. I have a couple of Vendettas, I usually take one, or both. But not always, since I can field almost 200 guardsmen now, and sometimes I do. Including Storm Troopers, because they are cool.

Just have fun with it, the IG codex is the best one for variety and fun, and nearly every unit, if used correctly, can help you win. Including Sentinels.

Bb

 Griddlelol wrote:

I think, and I believe most people think that the heavy flamer is drastically over costed for IG.

They certainly are, but if we are talking about including one in the whole army, it really doesn't matter much.

 Crimson wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:

I think, and I believe most people think that the heavy flamer is drastically over costed for IG.

They certainly are, but if we are talking about including one in the whole army, it really doesn't matter much.

Plus we get them free on our Chimera. Well, those running ML/HHF Chimera and Mech.

 Crimson wrote:
They certainly are, but if we are talking about including one in the whole army, it really doesn't matter much.

Making a mistake only once doesn't make it any less of a mistake.

 Peregrine wrote:


Making a mistake only once doesn't make it any less of a mistake.

There often are those few last points you can't use to buy anything sensible anyway.