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Crush is a focused witchfire ability with a range of 18". Roll 2d6. The target suffers a hit equal to the result, so if you roll a 12 you can still instant death tyranid MC?
I assume thats a yes.

Well page 2 says that characteristics (save for attacks and wounds) cannot go above 10, so I would take that as given for all characteristics of models, weapons, psychic powers etc.

So for me the answer is no to S12.

Also the wording of Crush implies that an 11 or 12 merely wounds automatically, as it does not cause a hit with that strength.

Jangustus wrote:
Well page 2 says that characteristics (save for attacks and wounds) cannot go above 10, so I would take that as given for all characteristics of models, weapons, psychic powers etc.

So for me the answer is no to S12.

Also the wording of Crush implies that an 11 or 12 merely wounds automatically, as it does not cause a hit with that strength.

Page 2 says that about the characteristics of models and units. Crush is neither a model nor a unit.

Also the wording of the rule is pretty clear, the target suffers a hit with a strength equal to the result of the 2D6 roll (the part in parentheses does not change the strength of the hit)

40k-noob wrote:
Page 2 says that about the characteristics of models and units. Crush is neither a model nor a unit.
Also the wording of the rule is pretty clear, the target suffers a hit with a strength equal to the result of the 2D6 roll (the part in parentheses does not change the strength of the hit)

The first argument here is untrue. Page 2 (or 3) doesn't say anything about going under 0 or over 10 - it says "All but one of the characteristics are rated on a scale from 0 to 10." This means we aren't ever given permission for characteristics to go outside the scale, unless specifically stated (I believe the Doom of Malantai says it can, but that's a case of codex overriding rulebook).

However, page 14 then refers to weapons having a Strength "characteristic", and page 50 repeats that it'll be between 1-10 (as there would be no point in resolving damage of a S0 weapon). As it's a characteristic, the rules from pages 2 and 3 have to apply, otherwise we have no basis for how to apply it. The same goes for psychic powers, as they state to treat the powers as shooting attacks with the exceptions given in the Psyker rules. If it's not a characteristic, how do you use the Strength value?

Attacks has permission to go above 10, wounds too iirc in the brb.
They are the exceptions.

 Super Ready wrote:
I believe the Doom of Malantai says it can, but that's a case of codex overriding rulebook

Doom's special rule specifically says he is capped at 10.

Thanks, don't know why I couldn't see it earlier but it's under "Modifiers".

 Super Ready wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
Page 2 says that about the characteristics of models and units. Crush is neither a model nor a unit.
Also the wording of the rule is pretty clear, the target suffers a hit with a strength equal to the result of the 2D6 roll (the part in parentheses does not change the strength of the hit)

The first argument here is untrue. Page 2 (or 3) doesn't say anything about going under 0 or over 10 - it says "All but one of the characteristics are rated on a scale from 0 to 10." This means we aren't ever given permission for characteristics to go outside the scale, unless specifically stated (I believe the Doom of Malantai says it can, but that's a case of codex overriding rulebook).

However, page 14 then refers to weapons having a Strength "characteristic", and page 50 repeats that it'll be between 1-10 (as there would be no point in resolving damage of a S0 weapon). As it's a characteristic, the rules from pages 2 and 3 have to apply, otherwise we have no basis for how to apply it. The same goes for psychic powers, as they state to treat the powers as shooting attacks with the exceptions given in the Psyker rules. If it's not a characteristic, how do you use the Strength value?

I suggest you re-read the pages 2-3.

Please explain how page is NOT referring to the characteristics of Models and Units?

I am curious how this "Page 2 says that about the characteristics of models and units." is untrue, when the heading of the section is "Models & Units"

I'm not disputing that at all. Indeed, page 2 does describe characteristics as they apply to models. However - the later rules then go on to state that weapons and psychic powers use characteristics as well.
Pages 2 and 3 are the only places that tell you how to operate characteristics. If you're not using those rules - what rules are you using?

If you are - what gives you permission to ignore the specific rules about minimum and maximum value?

 Super Ready wrote:
I'm not disputing that at all. Indeed, page 2 does describe characteristics as they apply to models. However - the later rules then go on to state that weapons and psychic powers use characteristics as well.
Pages 2 and 3 are the only places that tell you how to operate characteristics. If you're not using those rules - what rules are you using?

If you are - what gives you permission to ignore the specific rules about minimum and maximum value?

if you are not disputing what is on Page 2/3 then why did you claim my statement was false(untrue)?

Second, Crush is neither a model nor a unit, it is not even a weapon. It is a psychic power, with its own rules for its use.

Those rules state, "the target suffers a hit with a strength equal to the result of the 2D6"
Those are the rules that i am using.

40k-noob wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
I'm not disputing that at all. Indeed, page 2 does describe characteristics as they apply to models. However - the later rules then go on to state that weapons and psychic powers use characteristics as well.
Pages 2 and 3 are the only places that tell you how to operate characteristics. If you're not using those rules - what rules are you using?

If you are - what gives you permission to ignore the specific rules about minimum and maximum value?

if you are not disputing what is on Page 2/3 then why did you claim my statement was false(untrue)?

Second, Crush is neither a model nor a unit, it is not even a weapon. It is a psychic power, with its own rules for its use.

Those rules state, "the target suffers a hit with a strength equal to the result of the 2D6"
Those are the rules that i am using.

Define Strength without using the rules on page 2 and 3.
Ill wait.

Plus if a psychic power is not considered a weapon, you can not add its Str to the D6 roll when you roll for armor pen.

"Once a hit has been scored on a vehicle, roll a D6 and compare the weapon's Strength, comparing this total with the Armour value of the appropriate facing of the vehicle" P. 73

There is only an allowance for weapons to add their Str to the D6 roll.

Good luck glancing anything with just a D6...

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
I'm not disputing that at all. Indeed, page 2 does describe characteristics as they apply to models. However - the later rules then go on to state that weapons and psychic powers use characteristics as well.
Pages 2 and 3 are the only places that tell you how to operate characteristics. If you're not using those rules - what rules are you using?

If you are - what gives you permission to ignore the specific rules about minimum and maximum value?

if you are not disputing what is on Page 2/3 then why did you claim my statement was false(untrue)?

Second, Crush is neither a model nor a unit, it is not even a weapon. It is a psychic power, with its own rules for its use.

Those rules state, "the target suffers a hit with a strength equal to the result of the 2D6"
Those are the rules that i am using.

Define Strength without using the rules on page 2 and 3.
Ill wait.

It is not necessary to define Strength. Crush is not a model nor a unit. Those pages and the limits applied to models and untis have no bearing on Crush.

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
I'm not disputing that at all. Indeed, page 2 does describe characteristics as they apply to models. However - the later rules then go on to state that weapons and psychic powers use characteristics as well.
Pages 2 and 3 are the only places that tell you how to operate characteristics. If you're not using those rules - what rules are you using?

If you are - what gives you permission to ignore the specific rules about minimum and maximum value?

if you are not disputing what is on Page 2/3 then why did you claim my statement was false(untrue)?

Second, Crush is neither a model nor a unit, it is not even a weapon. It is a psychic power, with its own rules for its use.

Those rules state, "the target suffers a hit with a strength equal to the result of the 2D6"
Those are the rules that i am using.

Define Strength without using the rules on page 2 and 3.
Ill wait.

It is not necessary to define Strength. Crush is not a model nor a unit. Those pages and the limits applied to models and untis have no bearing on Crush.

So how do you know what you need to roll to wound without referencing Strength?

40k-noob wrote:
It is not necessary to define Strength. Crush is not a model nor a unit. Those pages and the limits applied to models and untis have no bearing on Crush.

So the only way to wound with it is by rolling an 11 or 12 and it'll never ID anything.
Cool story bro.

40k-noob, how about addressing the point I made.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Plus if a psychic power is not considered a weapon, you can not add its Str to the D6 roll when you roll for armor pen.

"Once a hit has been scored on a vehicle, roll a D6 and compare the weapon's Strength, comparing this total with the Armour value of the appropriate facing of the vehicle" P. 76

There is only an allowance for weapons to add their Str to the D6 roll.

Good luck glancing anything with just a D6...

The rules for Crush give you permission to use the Strength of 2D6 and a vehicle, if it is the target of Crush, suffers a hit with a Strength equal to that roll.

Page 76 is for Assaulting a Vehicle. Crush is a Witchfire power so it follows the rules for Shooting not Assaults, I assume you meant pg 73.

But you are right, there is only an allowance for weapons to add a D6 to the AP roll. Guess GW needs to define what exactly psychic powers are now dont they.

guess you better hope for an 11 or 12 roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
I'm not disputing that at all. Indeed, page 2 does describe characteristics as they apply to models. However - the later rules then go on to state that weapons and psychic powers use characteristics as well.
Pages 2 and 3 are the only places that tell you how to operate characteristics. If you're not using those rules - what rules are you using?

If you are - what gives you permission to ignore the specific rules about minimum and maximum value?

if you are not disputing what is on Page 2/3 then why did you claim my statement was false(untrue)?

Second, Crush is neither a model nor a unit, it is not even a weapon. It is a psychic power, with its own rules for its use.

Those rules state, "the target suffers a hit with a strength equal to the result of the 2D6"
Those are the rules that i am using.

Define Strength without using the rules on page 2 and 3.
Ill wait.

It is not necessary to define Strength. Crush is not a model nor a unit. Those pages and the limits applied to models and untis have no bearing on Crush.

So how do you know what you need to roll to wound without referencing Strength?

I didn't say you don't need to reference Strength, just that I don't need to define Strength.

Right the vehicle suffers a hit, but the armor pen rules tell us how to resolve that hit.

And that is to add the weapons str to the D6 roll to find out if you have penned the vehicles armor.

Therefore the Str of the hit means nothing as crush, according to you, is not a weapon, so you only get the D6 to figure out if you pen a vehicle.

Good luck with that roll trying to make a 10+ on a D6.

P.S. yes Page 73 fixed my post.

40k-noob wrote:
I didn't say you don't need to reference Strength, just that I don't need to define Strength.

How do you reference the definition for the Strength Characteristic without referencing the max of 10?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Right the vehicle suffers a hit, but the armor pen rules tell us how to resolve that hit.

And that is to add the weapons str to the D6 roll to find out if you have penned the vehicles armor.

Therefore the Str of the hit means nothing as crush, according to you, is not a weapon, so you only get the D6 to figure out if you pen a vehicle.

Good luck with that roll trying to make a 10+ on a D6.

P.S. yes Page 73 fixed my post.

I said you were right, didn't I? Perhaps you missed that after you read what you wanted to read.

40k-noob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Right the vehicle suffers a hit, but the armor pen rules tell us how to resolve that hit.

And that is to add the weapons str to the D6 roll to find out if you have penned the vehicles armor.

Therefore the Str of the hit means nothing as crush, according to you, is not a weapon, so you only get the D6 to figure out if you pen a vehicle.

Good luck with that roll trying to make a 10+ on a D6.

I said you were right, didn't I? Perhaps you missed that after you read what you wanted to read.

I was actually commenting on this part of your post:

guess you better hope for an 11 or 12 roll.

Rolling an 11 or 12 still does nothing.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
I didn't say you don't need to reference Strength, just that I don't need to define Strength.

How do you reference the definition for the Strength Characteristic without referencing the max of 10?

You reference the Strength value not the definition. It is not necessary to define what Strength is, only the numeric value of Strength is needed.


The definition of Strength as defined on Page 2 is fluff. Or are you really trying to say that Strength of Crush is to be defined as this?

"Strength gives a measure of how physically mighty a warrior is. An exceptionally puny creature might have a Strength of 1, while a Tyranid Carnifex has Strength 9. Men have Strength 3"

Is Crush a Warrior with variable Strength?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Right the vehicle suffers a hit, but the armor pen rules tell us how to resolve that hit.

And that is to add the weapons str to the D6 roll to find out if you have penned the vehicles armor.

Therefore the Str of the hit means nothing as crush, according to you, is not a weapon, so you only get the D6 to figure out if you pen a vehicle.

Good luck with that roll trying to make a 10+ on a D6.

I said you were right, didn't I? Perhaps you missed that after you read what you wanted to read.

I was actually commenting on this part of your post:

guess you better hope for an 11 or 12 roll.

Rolling an 11 or 12 still does nothing.

an 11 or 12 grants an automatic Penetrating hit .
Penetrating hits = the vehicle loses a Hull point and you roll on the Damage table.

How does that do nothing?

Right, one auto pen, but not because it is Str 11 or 12, Sorry if I did not make that clear.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Right, one auto pen, but not because it is Str 11 or 12, Sorry if I did not make that clear.

No worries, I should have added that 11-12 gives the auto pen.

Can't beats can. You cannot take a S11 or S12 hit. S10 is the best you can do. Sorry.

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
I didn't say you don't need to reference Strength, just that I don't need to define Strength.

How do you reference the definition for the Strength Characteristic without referencing the max of 10?

You reference the Strength value not the definition. It is not necessary to define what Strength is, only the numeric value of Strength is needed.


The definition of Strength as defined on Page 2 is fluff. Or are you really trying to say that Strength of Crush is to be defined as this?

"Strength gives a measure of how physically mighty a warrior is. An exceptionally puny creature might have a Strength of 1, while a Tyranid Carnifex has Strength 9. Men have Strength 3"

Is Crush a Warrior with variable Strength?

Are you purposely ignoring the point I'm trying to make?
Strength is a Characteristic, agreed?
Characteristics have values ranging from 0 to 10, agreed?

If you disagree on the first point, then what is it? Please cite what rules you're using to define what Strength is in the context of Crush.
If you disagree on the second point, please explain why.

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
I didn't say you don't need to reference Strength, just that I don't need to define Strength.

How do you reference the definition for the Strength Characteristic without referencing the max of 10?

You reference the Strength value not the definition. It is not necessary to define what Strength is, only the numeric value of Strength is needed.


The definition of Strength as defined on Page 2 is fluff. Or are you really trying to say that Strength of Crush is to be defined as this?

"Strength gives a measure of how physically mighty a warrior is. An exceptionally puny creature might have a Strength of 1, while a Tyranid Carnifex has Strength 9. Men have Strength 3"

Is Crush a Warrior with variable Strength?

Are you purposely ignoring the point I'm trying to make?
Strength is a Characteristic, agreed?
Characteristics have values ranging from 0 to 10, agreed?

If you disagree on the first point, then what is it? Please cite what rules you're using to define what Strength is in the context of Crush.
If you disagree on the second point, please explain why.

Are you purposely ignoring the point I'm trying to make? No I am not trying to ignore your point, but if you do not make your point clearly then am i suppose to guess what your point is?
Strength is a Characteristic, agreed? Sure why not.
Characteristics have values ranging from 0 to 10, agreed? Only those applied to models and units, in those cases, the pages 2/3 are clear, yes they are limited to 0-10.

If you disagree on the second point, please explain why. Because it is pretty clear that Crush is not a model nor a unit and therefor the rules for Characteristic limits that apply to Models and Units have no effect on Crush



Edit: Whoa, first font color choice was not good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BolterUnlimited wrote:
Can't beats can. You cannot take a S11 or S12 hit. S10 is the best you can do. Sorry.

Actually in this case, everything is a "can't" unless the rulebook says you can, permissive rules and all that.

So in this case, with the rules for Crush being written as they are, they have a clear, yes you can.

Cite the rules you're using to describe non-model characteristics please.
Since the only place Strength is described is as a model characteristic all characteristics must be based off of those rules. That or there is literally no ability to wound outside of CC.

rigeld2 wrote:
Cite the rules you're using to describe non-model characteristics please.
Since the only place Strength is described is as a model characteristic all characteristics must be based off of those rules. That or there is literally no ability to wound outside of CC.

What do you mean "describe" non-model characteristics?

I am not sure what you are getting at.

He means do not look at the model characteristics page and define what the Strength of Crush means.