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Hello all, ran into a bit of a problem without answer at a recent tournament. I landed in some Mycetic Spore Zoanthropes near an enemy line, and was lucky enough to have rolled up Puppet Master for an alternate Psyker power. My Grey Knight opponent had two squads of Henchmen in this portion of the map, which were mostly composed of Psykers.

Now, provided he had not used his level 1 Psyker charge per game turn, would I be able to make his units utilize their Witchfire weaponry? Is there a rule saying I can not? And if I had Puppet Master'ed them on the top of the game turn, when his charge was back up, could I use his charge thus not allowing him to do so on his turn, the bottom of the game turn?

You could make them use a witchfire power with puppet master, as it can be used instead of shooting.

as to the second question, they generate 1 warp charge on each player turn, so if you use puppet master in your turn, they may still cast a power in their turn.

I'd instead err on the side of caution and not try Witchfire. You also run instead of shooting, and as the Overwatch FAQ showed you can't use Witchfire outside your shooting phase.

 Cieged wrote:
Now, provided he had not used his level 1 Psyker charge per game turn?

Warp Charges are per Player Turn, not Game Turn.

Spetulhu wrote:
I'd instead err on the side of caution and not try Witchfire. You also run instead of shooting, and as the Overwatch FAQ showed you can't use Witchfire outside your shooting phase.

Ah yes, I believe this is what you're referring to:

FAQ wrote:Q:Can psychic shooting attacks be fired as Snap Shots
(assuming that the Psyker has enough Warp Charge available
and requires a roll to hit)? (p13)
A: Yes, but only in your own Shooting phase. This means that
psychic shooting attacks cannot be made when firing
Overwatch.

Though this certainly implies to me that Psychic Shooting may only be performed in the owners Shooting Phase, it doesn't implicitly say it. Is there another reference that is more definite on the matter?

 Happyjew wrote:
Warp Charges are per Player Turn, not Game Turn.

Ah, thank you for that clarification.

 Cieged wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
I'd instead err on the side of caution and not try Witchfire. You also run instead of shooting, and as the Overwatch FAQ showed you can't use Witchfire outside your shooting phase.

Ah yes, I believe this is what you're referring to:

FAQ wrote:Q:Can psychic shooting attacks be fired as Snap Shots
(assuming that the Psyker has enough Warp Charge available
and requires a roll to hit)? (p13)
A: Yes, but only in your own Shooting phase. This means that
psychic shooting attacks cannot be made when firing
Overwatch.

Though this certainly implies to me that Psychic Shooting may only be performed in the owners Shooting Phase, it doesn't implicitly say it. Is there another reference that is more definite on the matter?

Yes. Page 69, left column 1st Graph, 1st Sentence.

No chaining multiple Puppet Masters across an Apocalypse table to get their Emperor Titan standing eleven feet away to rain down almighty hellfire, then :(

I do think that as long as GW has that FAQ ruling regarding psychic shooting attacks not being allowed to Overwatch that it essentially sets a precedent denying psychic shooting attacks from ever being fired in the opponent's turn unless a special ability/rule explicitly permits a psychic shooting attack is allowed to be used in the opponent's turn.

However, I do think that ruling by GW is the wrong one if they're basing it off of page 69's reference to psychic shooting attacks being made in the player's own turn...that is standard permissive text allowing a player to use his powers in his own turn. It is similar to the basic rules for shooting that permit a player to fire all of his units during his own shooting phase. Yet the Puppet Master rules, for example, simply say that the target immediately makes a shooting attack as if he were one of your own models...and if you look at the rules for witchfire, they are done instead of a model firing a weapon. Meaning, throughout the rest of the rules, a model that fires witchfire is assumed to have made a shooting attack (and therefore can only charge the target it shot at, etc).

So IMHO, anytime a model is able to make a shooting attack he should be able to substitute a psychic shooting attack for his weapon. Yes, the Witchfire rules only specify that this may be done on the model's own turn, but the same is true of the model being able to make a shooting attack in the first place...so if the model is somehow granted permission to make a shooting attack out of turn, then that should naturally give permission to use any other rules that he has which also pertain to his shooting attack.

But again, this is just my opinion on how the rules should work in general to avoid having to explicitly list everything a model can/cannot do when it gets to perform something that is an exception to the normal rules.

However, as GW has ruled that psychic shooting attacks cannot be utilized during overwatch, I do agree that this precedent indicates that you cannot use psychic shooting attacks via Puppet Master until they rule otherwise (and create one of their lovely contradictions via FAQ).

Given that Puppet Master states you fire "as if it was one of your models" wouldn't that circumvent the prohibition from using Witchfires outside your shooting phase? As far as the model being puppeted is concerned it is its shooting phase, and so Witchfires are A-OK.

Chrysis wrote:
Given that Puppet Master states you fire "as if it was one of your models" wouldn't that circumvent the prohibition from using Witchfires outside your shooting phase? As far as the model being puppeted is concerned it is its shooting phase, and so Witchfires are A-OK.

Nope. You get to fire your own models in the opponent's assault phase (overwatch), and somehow that doesn't grant you permission to use your psychic shooting attacks in that case, so there is literally no logical way to argue that Puppet Master should apply when Overwatch doesn't unless you assume that GW ruled that way regarding Overwatch for some other reason (fluff or something), but given the lack of any conflicting FAQ answer regarding a similar situation, I don't see how you can't apply the same logic from Overwatch to Puppet Master as well.

The reason for no Overwatch was because they can only be done during the model's shooting phase, which the Assault phase obviously isn't.

Puppet Master is a Witchfire, which means that it must be the Psyker's shooting phase to use it. As the model hit by it temporary becomes one of my models, it is now that model's shooting phase as well. If that model is also a Psyker, then he can use Witchfires because it is "the Psyker's Shooting phase."

Are you permitted to have that model make a psychic test?

A shooting attack is a defined thing in the BRB and it seems to me that is the only thing you are permitted to proceed with. You are therefore not allowed to proceed with several steps of the process.

After deciding which power to use you:
1. Expend a Warp Charge
2. Declare a Target
3. Make Psychic test
4. Target attempts Deny the Witch
5. Resolve power.

I see two, perhaps three, things you are not expressly permitted to do here per Puppet Master.

Edit: it's even arguable that you are not even attempting a 'shooting attack' until step 5.

Chrysis wrote:The reason for no Overwatch was because they can only be done during the model's shooting phase, which the Assault phase obviously isn't.

Puppet Master is a Witchfire, which means that it must be the Psyker's shooting phase to use it. As the model hit by it temporary becomes one of my models, it is now that model's shooting phase as well. If that model is also a Psyker, then he can use Witchfires because it is "the Psyker's Shooting phase."

And by that rationale, overwatch shooting at all should not be allowed, because the rules for shooting only allow players to shoot with their units in their own shooting phase. The wording for Overwatch actually doesn't expressly allow for the models to fire in the assault phase, it just says that Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit in the assault phase)...so there literally is no difference between whatever magical rule is allowing the model to make a shooting attack via overwatch and the Puppet Master rules allowing the enemy player to shoot with an opposing model.

Abandon wrote:Are you permitted to have that model make a psychic test?

A shooting attack is a defined thing in the BRB and it seems to me that is the only thing you are permitted to proceed with. You are therefore not allowed to proceed with several steps of the process.

After deciding which power to use you:
1. Expend a Warp Charge
2. Declare a Target
3. Make Psychic test
4. Target attempts Deny the Witch
5. Resolve power.

I see two, perhaps three, things you are not expressly permitted to do here per Puppet Master.

Edit: it's even arguable that you are not even attempting a 'shooting attack' until step 5.

And yet, all those things are naturally followed in the case of something like Mindshackle Scarabs forcing a model to use his Force ability.

The reality is, those things are done in service of resolving a power. If a player is given permission to use a player's psychic abilities, then all those things are naturally performed to make the power work.

So, for example, if tomorrow GW released a FAQ saying that Puppet Master does allow you to fire an enemy psyker's psychic shooting attacks (which they totally could do) we would all naturally understand that those steps you've laid out would have to be performed in service of activating the power.

The point being, those steps in and of themselves should not be assumed to be the reason that the opposing player can't force an enemy psyker to use his powers, because its already been shown in other cases that opposing players can force those things to happen in service of activating the force ability.

 yakface wrote:

Abandon wrote:Are you permitted to have that model make a psychic test?

A shooting attack is a defined thing in the BRB and it seems to me that is the only thing you are permitted to proceed with. You are therefore not allowed to proceed with several steps of the process.

After deciding which power to use you:
1. Expend a Warp Charge
2. Declare a Target
3. Make Psychic test
4. Target attempts Deny the Witch
5. Resolve power.

I see two, perhaps three, things you are not expressly permitted to do here per Puppet Master.

Edit: it's even arguable that you are not even attempting a 'shooting attack' until step 5.

And yet, all those things are naturally followed in the case of something like Mindshackle Scarabs forcing a model to use his Force ability.

The reality is, those things are done in service of resolving a power. If a player is given permission to use a player's psychic abilities, then all those things are naturally performed to make the power work.

So, for example, if tomorrow GW released a FAQ saying that Puppet Master does allow you to fire an enemy psyker's psychic shooting attacks (which they totally could do) we would all naturally understand that those steps you've laid out would have to be performed in service of activating the power.

The point being, those steps in and of themselves should not be assumed to be the reason that the opposing player can't force an enemy psyker to use his powers, because its already been shown in other cases that opposing players can force those things to happen in service of activating the force ability.

I do not have the rules for Mindshackle Scarabs. What is the wording?

 Abandon wrote:

I do not have the rules for Mindshackle Scarabs. What is the wording?

"At the start of the Fight sub-phase...randomly select a non-vehicle enemy model in base contact...that model must immediately take a Leadership test on 3D6...if the test is failed, the victim strikes out as his allies. Instead of attacking normally, he inflicts D3 hits on his own unit (or himself, if on his own or in a challenge) when it is his turn to attack. These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice). If he is still alive, the victim returns to normal once all blows in that round of combat have been struck." (updated iOS text)


So pre-FAQ, the same arguments you've made regarding Puppet Master were made about Force Weapons and mindshackle scarabs...that because the rules don't expressly give permission to expend a warp charge, the Force ability could not be activated, despite the Mindshackle rules saying that the controller gets to choose to benefit from any abilities the wielder's weapons have.

Whereas, in many other peoples' opinions (including apparently GW), expending force charges are merely things that have to be done in order to achieve a goal (activate a force weapon or use a psychic power) and therefore if you have permission to do either of these things, then by forcing them to occur, the normal order of operations for activating a psychic power/force ability would be resolved in service of that goal.


But don't get me wrong...I still don't think the rules allow puppet master to force a psychic shooting attack to be used, I just don't think your particular argument is what stops it from happening (its because psychic shooting attacks apparently can't be used outside of the player's shooting phase, even if the model happens to have permission to shoot in that phase).

 yakface wrote:

 Abandon wrote:

I do not have the rules for Mindshackle Scarabs. What is the wording?

"At the start of the Fight sub-phase...randomly select a non-vehicle enemy model in base contact...that model must immediately take a Leadership test on 3D6...if the test is failed, the victim strikes out as his allies. Instead of attacking normally, he inflicts D3 hits on his own unit (or himself, if on his own or in a challenge) when it is his turn to attack. These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength and benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses which, if there is a choice). If he is still alive, the victim returns to normal once all blows in that round of combat have been struck." (updated iOS text)


So pre-FAQ, the same arguments you've made regarding Puppet Master were made about Force Weapons and mindshackle scarabs...that because the rules don't expressly give permission to expend a warp charge, the Force ability could not be activated, despite the Mindshackle rules saying that the controller gets to choose to benefit from any abilities the wielder's weapons have.

Whereas, in many other peoples' opinions (including apparently GW), expending force charges are merely things that have to be done in order to achieve a goal (activate a force weapon or use a psychic power) and therefore if you have permission to do either of these things, then by forcing them to occur, the normal order of operations for activating a psychic power/force ability would be resolved in service of that goal.


But don't get me wrong...I still don't think the rules allow puppet master to force a psychic shooting attack to be used, I just don't think your particular argument is what stops it from happening (its because psychic shooting attacks apparently can't be used outside of the player's shooting phase, even if the model happens to have permission to shoot in that phase).

I see your point and agree in that case.

However, I don't believe that the 'outside of the players shooting phase' argument holds either since you are treating the model "as if it was one of your models" and it is your own shooting phase. It seems to me in that case the precedence is set to use psychic witchfire powers through Puppet Master.

FAQ wrote:Q:Can psychic shooting attacks be fired as Snap Shots
(assuming that the Psyker has enough Warp Charge available
and requires a roll to hit)? (p13)
A: Yes, but only in your own Shooting phase. This means that
psychic shooting attacks cannot be made when firing
Overwatch.

IMO, Don't see why this is setting a precident for not utilising whichfire spells via puppet master. The FAQ restriction only states you can not fire whichfire as a snapshot outside 'your turn'. Assuming you are not fireing the Witchfire spell as a snapshot this restriction does not apply, and does not apply to the situation described in the origional post.

Havn't checked over the rule book on this though might be some other things in there.

 Nem wrote:

FAQ wrote:Q:Can psychic shooting attacks be fired as Snap Shots
(assuming that the Psyker has enough Warp Charge available
and requires a roll to hit)? (p13)
A: Yes, but only in your own Shooting phase. This means that
psychic shooting attacks cannot be made when firing
Overwatch.

IMO, Don't see why this is setting a precident for not utilising whichfire spells via puppet master. The FAQ restriction only states you can not fire whichfire as a snapshot outside 'your turn'. Assuming you are not fireing the Witchfire spell as a snapshot this restriction does not apply, and does not apply to the situation described in the origional post.

Havn't checked over the rule book on this though might be some other things in there.

So you think that ruling is just made up out of thin air completely?

I mean generally, if there is some plausible reasoning behind a ruling, especially if included in the answer to the question, then it makes sense to acknowledge it.

Why can psychic shooting attacks not be snap fired outside of your own shooting phase? Just a random ruling made on GW's part?

No, because per the psychic shooting rules on pg 69, witchfire (psychic shooting attacks) is only given permission to be used in the player's own shooting phase...so the question GW has answered is a general one about firing snap shots with psychic shooting attacks (yes you can), but only in your own shooting phase (why? Because you are only allowed to use psychic shooting attacks in your own shooting phase).