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So im starting a Nilla Space Marine army (Salamanders) and my friend is running a Cron army, how can I beat him and combat his flyers/skimmers spam?? I'm going to use Vulkan He'stan and make use of his chapter tactics on flamers, meltas, and hammers. Is there a competitive list or way of fighting the crons with the Salamanders???

I don't understand why your language is so harsh? You must be confused or something because Vulcan armies are very capable at handling Necrons...

1) tl melta guns, Melta Tears apart quantum shielding, and since every melta gun is twin linked you have better anti air then most other forces. Sure you have to hit on a 6, but a single melta pen will likely kill a night scythe, and you've got 2 chances per melta of getting that 6.

2) Tesla cannot harm a land raider. If hes not running heavy gauss, then only Doom Scythes can kill a land raider, and even then they aren't super likely to wreck it in a single shot. Not only that but a squad of THSS termies should wreck everything he has that they can catch, and if you have a null zone librarian you literally laugh out loud at wraiths.

Honestly, Salamanders built like Salamanders have one of the best match ups against Necrons in the game, if you are having so much trouble that you are resorting to say "frakkin Necrons", its likely that you are just being outplayed by your friend and not any shortcomings of your actual army!

Necrons are good, and if they are well piloted they can be very intimidating, but that doesn't change that Salamander Vanilla SM are one of the best builds the codex has to offer, and it doesn't change the fact that Salamanders are one of NECRONS hardest match ups because of the tl melta, and not having anything that can stand up to THSS termies.

Focus on Objectives, Get your tactical squads on them, and go to ground when necessary (you can still snap shot at fliers with tl melta when you go to ground anyway) Remember to use an Aegis Defense Line with a Quad Gun, and make sure you give his ground troops the business end of THSS termies in a Land Raider Crusader or Redeemer- possibly with a Null Zone Librarian as points allow.

I play crons, and took a 7 flyer 1500 point list to the october throne of skulls. The best game I had (which I lost) was against a Salamander army with guard allies.

The best advice you need to beat the flying circus, is drop pods. They are your best chance of killing what ever starts on the table turn 1, before any flyers turn up. This also means he won't get many turns shooting you because you are in his deployment zone. If he has vehicles on the table at the start, meltas will work very well. Ironclads with melta guns and H flamers will kill warriors quickly.

Try something like this.

vulkan
dread- mm, heavy flamer, drop pod, locator beacon
dread- mm, heavy flamer,drop pod, locator beacon
5x terminators- TH/SS
tac squad- mm, melta, combi-melta, drop pod
tac squad- mm, melta, combi-melta, drop pod
tac squad- mm, flamer,combi-flamer, drop pod
tac squad- mm, flamer, combi-flamer, drop pod
2x land speeders- mm, heavy flamers
2x land speeders- mm, heavy flamers
2x land speeders- mm, heavy flamers

This is a 5th Ed. list, but with minimal changes I believe it should still work quite nicely. I think that's in the ballpark of 1500 points. Season to taste.

 akaean wrote:
I don't understand why your language is so harsh? You must be confused or something because Vulcan armies are very capable at handling Necrons...

1) tl melta guns, Melta Tears apart quantum shielding, and since every melta gun is twin linked you have better anti air then most other forces. Sure you have to hit on a 6, but a single melta pen will likely kill a night scythe, and you've got 2 chances per melta of getting that 6.

2) Tesla cannot harm a land raider. If hes not running heavy gauss, then only Doom Scythes can kill a land raider, and even then they aren't super likely to wreck it in a single shot. Not only that but a squad of THSS termies should wreck everything he has that they can catch, and if you have a null zone librarian you literally laugh out loud at wraiths.

Honestly, Salamanders built like Salamanders have one of the best match ups against Necrons in the game, if you are having so much trouble that you are resorting to say "frakkin Necrons", its likely that you are just being outplayed by your friend and not any shortcomings of your actual army!

Necrons are good, and if they are well piloted they can be very intimidating, but that doesn't change that Salamander Vanilla SM are one of the best builds the codex has to offer, and it doesn't change the fact that Salamanders are one of NECRONS hardest match ups because of the tl melta, and not having anything that can stand up to THSS termies.

Focus on Objectives, Get your tactical squads on them, and go to ground when necessary (you can still snap shot at fliers with tl melta when you go to ground anyway) Remember to use an Aegis Defense Line with a Quad Gun, and make sure you give his ground troops the business end of THSS termies in a Land Raider Crusader or Redeemer- possibly with a Null Zone Librarian as points allow.

@akaean

Thank you for your advice. I haven't started playing my Salamanders yet, I have just got Vulkan and loved his model and decides to do a straight Salamander Army with him. So i wasn't "outplayed" or not using my army properly. There isn't an army yet LOL

Mainly i was reaching out to other Salamander Army Players to see if they could give me tactical advice on playing against CronAir with 5+, 7+, 10+ flyers in it. And as to why i used the verbage "Frakkin" is because Necrons are a completely Broken army. And until everyone's Codices are updated and there is a basic Spam free field of army lists, the Crons will stay Broken and completely Frakked in my own opinion. And just to clarify i hav no problem with spamming and or the Crons. I just believe that if your army is doing well you should be able to deal with others ripping on them. Just like in 5th when the GK armies were pretty Broken. I played GK and i made fun of them too. I'm sorry if typing "frakkin" offended you. In my heart i was saying the other word if that makes you feel any better?

@smurfsrus & @azazel the cat

Thank you, Drop pods are a great idea!! And i was planning on using a LRRedemeer, but Pods will help keep the enemy guessing and shots away from my 4 hull points.

I play salamanders and I also play against Necrons with a lot of flyers.

I mainly play a pod list and include the following:

TH/SS Termies in a Land Raider are hard for the Tesla weapons to do anything against. -- This goes for the Nightscythes. Doomscythes are a different story and are your target priority.

Second, an ADL w/Quad gun is effective against them as well. As said earlier, take out any Doomscythes first.

Thirdly, make sure you keep all your units outside of 6" to prevent the Arc from affecting you.

With proper spacing/placement of your units in an Objective game, you should be fine. Concentrate the ADL on the Doomscythes and use your LR/Termies to hit ground forces.

A pod w/Combi-Melta/Combi-Flamer Sternguard will make a nice Alpha Strike on whatever ground units he has on the table before the flyers start coming in.

One thing to note however, to make things easier I've recently added 3 Stormtalons to make dropping Nightscythes a little bit easier.

@ Nick the Butcher

thanks for the tactica, will my list work

3x 10 tac marines each with flamer or meltagun and 3 multi-meltas

2x 5 devistators 4 multi-meltas in each unit

a land raider redeemer with multi-melta and extra armor

5 assault terminnators hammers and shields

terminator librarian (epistolary)

oh and vulkan he'stan

should i drop a suad of tac marines and get drop pods

A follow-up to the list I posted:

That list is deadly to a Necron Air Force. Remember, if your opponent has no units on the table at the end of the turn, then you win. Keep that in mind, and take note that almost the entire list I posted is designed to drop right in your opponent's face with tons of TL melta and flamers. Now consider this: in a Necron Air Force, on the first turn the majority of his models are likely to be held in reserves due to the flyer rules, which leaves you with very few targets to concentrate your efforts against. A decent alpha strike from your list, and you have a very good chance of tabling your opponent with some consistency.

Lews Therin wrote:
@ Nick the Butcher

thanks for the tactica, will my list work

3x 10 tac marines each with flamer or meltagun and 3 multi-meltas

2x 5 devistators 4 multi-meltas in each unit

a land raider redeemer with multi-melta and extra armor

5 assault terminnators hammers and shields

terminator librarian (epistolary)

oh and vulkan he'stan

should i drop a suad of tac marines and get drop pods

Honestly if I were to drop anything, it would be the Devs. They are really expensive for what you get and with only have 5 in each unit, those Teslas will make short work of them. The 300pts can be spent elsewhere.

A decent 1750 that I would typically run would start with:

Vulkan
Librarian w/Terminator Armor/SS - GOI and Null Zone (Null Zone is great against Wraiths)

2x Tac Squads in pods
1x Squad of Sniper scouts and Telion (put them in the ADL w/Quadgun)

1x Squad of Sternguard w/5x Combi Melta and 5x Combi Flamer in a Pod (with the Librarian)

ADL w/Quad Gun

From there you have about 300 or so more points to add whatever you want. I would recommend maybe some Deep Striking Termies.

Unfortunately at that points limit it's hard to Justify so many points into a single Land Raider -- when I bring them I usually bring 2 at the minimum.

Azazel's list is fairly good too. I'm not a fan of Speeders (just personally don't like them) but that list could do some damage.

I only played twice again Necrons and what I learn is to kill/destroy in a certain order (the barges, the spiders, the troops) to avoid the raise dead stuff. But for the flyers swarm... I don't know where to begin.

Lews Therin wrote:
the Crons will stay Broken and completely Frakked in my own opinion. And just to clarify i hav no problem with spamming and or the Crons. I just believe that if your army is doing well you should be able to deal with others ripping on them. Just like in 5th when the GK armies were pretty Broken. I played GK and i made fun of them too. I'm sorry if typing "frakkin" offended you. In my heart i was saying the other word if that makes you feel any better?

I play Eldar by the way

Anyway, you need to be more careful with how you pose your questions. Its not that "frakkin" offended me or anything, but rather that word in combination with the string of "?!?!?!?!?!" and the excessive use of question marks in your OP did not give the impression of somebody who is just looking for pointers against Necrons with a new army, but rather of somebody who is incredibly flustered. It didn't sound like you wanted advice on how to beat Necrons with Salamanders so much as it sounded like you wanted people to commiserate with you about how it is impossible!

Your response was great. It was calm, well thought out, and explained your thoughts and what you were looking for very well, you should aim for that quality in all your posts. Especially your first posts of a thread, since that sets the tone for the whole things!

Its not that you might offend people, or should even worry about that, but you do want people to legitimately answer your question without severely questioning your own abilities don't you

What does he start with on board?
Necron Warriors? Spam Heavy Flamers. With Vulkan you should be able to eliminate the unit - thus preventing his reanimation protocol.

Immortals? These are tougher but limited in numbers.. so a unit of sternguard wth special ammo or combi-plasma should knock it out

Vehicles? MM attack bikes and/or speeders.

Drop Pods to get them in their face.
Landspeeder storms with heavy flamers or multi-meltas scout moving with small scout squads.

So to build around your fun..

5 drop pods 175
Vulkan 190
2 landspeeder storms w MM 130
3 Attack Bikes w MM 150

645

Now it is time to plan out your 3 drop pods and what you want in them...
Say 2 DN w MM and HF 230
10 Sternguard - 2 Heavy Flamers, 3 Combi-Flamers,5 Combi-Meltas... 310

1185

2 Scouts - Combi-Melta, Meltabomb 180
2 Tacticals - Combi-flamer, flamer, MM 360

1725

So - assuming you have 1850 you have a big 125 points to play with.. You have used 1 HQ, 3 Elite, 4 Troop and 3 Fast Attack choices. As it stands, you are going to beat the snot out of whatever he has on the board. Another option is to fight fire with fire and buy a flyer or two instead of the scouts/speeder combo.

It is important to try to write calmly, but like so many of us. We have a deep passion for the 40k game and thus tend to write in frustration in hopes of getting help dealing with something that we see as 'broken'. I will say at least you have access to flyers and necron flyers are pretty weak once you hit them.
I think (IMO) the reason many have a resentment to the Necrons is the way they were written as a decent stand alone army. I think as we see newer codexes coming out it is evident that GW planned for allies to help fill the gap of you preferred force. CSM and Chaos mesh very well together. I think the newer codexes are showing the way GW wants to go, where the armies have their strong and definite weak points. The problem with crons is that they do not follow the new codex formula and they will likely not be redone before 7th edition, which will make them feel more broken through 6th edition.

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
It is important to try to write calmly, but like so many of us. We have a deep passion for the 40k game and thus tend to write in frustration in hopes of getting help dealing with something that we see as 'broken'. I will say at least you have access to flyers and necron flyers are pretty weak once you hit them.
I think (IMO) the reason many have a resentment to the Necrons is the way they were written as a decent stand alone army. I think as we see newer codexes coming out it is evident that GW planned for allies to help fill the gap of you preferred force. CSM and Chaos mesh very well together. I think the newer codexes are showing the way GW wants to go, where the armies have their strong and definite weak points. The problem with crons is that they do not follow the new codex formula and they will likely not be redone before 7th edition, which will make them feel more broken through 6th edition.

I would like to point out they have little to no alpha strike as compared to IG or SM (Salamanders).

They also have relatively medium level melee abilities as long as you don't depend on a single character for your melee punch.

Finally they are 4+ almost across the board which brings a certain class of weapons into prime position to do tremendous damage (Manticore is my favorite).

They are probably the single strongest codex but they are not the only codex that can stand alone and the most competitive necron build I have seen is allied with hellturkey Chaos:SM.

The recent codices are not written to require allies but rather are written with a more balanced slightly lower power level than 5th edition codices which means that if you want to be as competitive as possible you will ally.

Edit: Sorry forgot my advice. I agree with the previous posters that TL-melta is the bane to fliers in my experience and necron flyer lists dread drop pod armies which have a good chance to wipe them off the board. I would further point out I would keep the combi-melta sternguard in reserve to drop on the fliers once they come on if your alpha strike fails. Start with the dreads/etc.

@ akaean

Ah i gotcha, i basically threw all "?!?!?!?!?!?!?" this together to try and grab people's attention. But i will agree that your right, it can come off looking like im at my wits end trying to figure out how to counter Crons. To allay your fears i am not and I have been putting all of this Tatica advice into my list building and Play testing against my friend and his AirCron, it had been going well so far. More competitive play, which is always good.

@ DAaddict

We mainly play at 1500 pts because it makes list building pretty challenging, because you can't really over Spam stuff without leaving gaping holes in the cohesiveness of the rest of your army.

But your suggestions worked like a charm, Sternguard with combi-meltas and flamers plus two groups of assault terminators. Added to this scout snipers behind an ADL with Telion manning the Quad gun taking out his skimmers and Flyers. I'm going to try to tweak it a little bit over the next couple of games and also try it against some Blood Angels and Orks. But i really like how this army feels and plays

@Eiluj the farseer

I agree whole heartedly that this game like any game that breeds competition can lead to frustration and general grumpiness at teams/armies that we see as over powered. And what i love about this game is that people feel a loyalty to their respective armies. I know when i first started playing 40k back in high school i fell for the GK fluff and saved and bought and built my GK army, painted every model. And even now years later after playing multiple other armies I still consider myself a GK player LOL

But back to the topic, i hav no ill will for Crons. just another army of Xenos to purge and your right GW is guiding the game towards allies, which is fine in my book. But i kno a lot of the players that live near me and that i play against, want to keep their armies "pure" in the sense that they don't bring others to help them. Which in turn makes it a challenge to build lists that are straight your own Codex, that can take on most armies. So i think the frustration breeds in that fertile ground of our minds wishing that our codex was that last one made in 5th LOL

@ ansacs

Thanks!! Alpha striking seems to be the general advice on taking on AirCron so far. Plus it can give other armies a lot of problems too.

I agree with one thing said by OP: GK's are broken. Necrons are tough but not as bad as 5th Ed. GK's.

Str 10 on the fliers are tough. Maybe some Rhinos could give your squads some protection until the fliers arrive?

Eh, I would stay away from light vehicles against Necrons. Night Scythes are pretty much responsible for the death of Rhino / Razor Spam in 6th edition, since Razor Spam basically gets automatically tabled against Night Scythe Spam. Which is not what you want. Tesla Destructors are basically tailor made to screw over 3 HP av11 vehicles. They are like Eldar Scatter lasers on bovine growth hormones.

@ Pipealley

Yes i agree with what your saying, that mobility for my beginning troops (i.e. tac marines and such) will be better, but like Akaean said, CronAir kinda wrecks face AV12 and below. So i'm running a LRRedeemer right now because it gives me AV14 and also some good heavy weapons on top and sides. but my brother has been pestering me to combat squad up my tacs and try and run a couple Razors. and i might just to see how they do. But i hav been burns a bunch against IG w/ Vendettas and my friends CronAir.

But who knows with Terrain and we have been talking abt running a cities of death type game....? that might help keep LOS semi in my favor.

I Dunno... at that point any points you spend on Rhinos/Razors could be points spent on more troops. That is the one thing that kills most SM lists is players over-spend on elite/fast/heavy slots and end up with to few troop choices.

 BlkTom wrote:
I Dunno... at that point any points you spend on Rhinos/Razors could be points spent on more troops. That is the one thing that kills most SM lists is players over-spend on elite/fast/heavy slots and end up with to few troop choices.

I 100% agree, but playtesting them out against certain lists and armies, in my opinion is a good idea just to see how they fair. But on the whole i agree with you BlkTom that SM armies need more men not elites or fast attack. That being said, a Vulkan army facing CronAir will def need Drop pods and meltas. And honestly the past3 or 4 games my Sternguard have done amazingly well. So im tempted to say that i wont leave home without them when fielding this list.

Plus its all about giving your opponent too many targets to handle and way too many problems to deal with in the beginning. This is what i have gleaned from the Posters above and from my 10 games or so messing around with this army. The semi-Razor spam for my Tacs was just a bit of a lark to try and put more stuff in his face sooner.

So how did it work? Did you think it was worth it? Or haven't you tried it yet....

@ BlkTom

I have not at this moment run a Razor semi-spam list with Vulkan yet. But i will try it, mainly because its viable and because of my perstering younger brother. But i have run Razor Spam with my GKs and i can tell you that in 6th edition its pretty dead. and not easy to use or pull off. Maybe as a gimick or something along those lines at my FLGS but i prob will try it 1-3 times see if it pans out, but my hopes are not high. I think sticking with a LRRedeemer and Pods will be the general tactic an plan for my list with Vulkan.

Sry it took me a while i am having a debate on another tread about the merit of on the board Tactics compared to List building

Not a problem... I didn't think it was viable anymore either, but I wanted to see if there were some good reasons or not to try it vs extra troops.

Yeah with the cost of the LRRedeemer i can't run both and the LR just offers more protection with AV14 then the 4 Razors would...

But i will try them out against the CronAir and against Blood Angels, Orks, GKs and Tyranids so maybe there is a gap or weakness in those armies. But im not holding my breath LOL

I personally wouldn't call the necron codex broken.
Sure, it is tough with very few units that are not at least decent (flayed ones being an example) and several that are just flat out awesome, plus all the gauss makes anti tank a breeze most of the time, but they are beatable imo.

It is the cron air build that is broken. 7-10 fliers in a 1500-1850 list is broken when the majority of the other armies out there have little to no way of countering it with skyfire weaponry. The only chance they have is to kill whatever is on the board before the fliers start turning up.

Which, obviously, a canny Necron player is going to make difficult.

By the way, I don't play necrons, I am just giving my opinion on their codex.

I haven't offered any advice to the OP here really, but that is because I don't know much about marines anyway and because everybody else has already covered it.

Apply more boltgun and assault cannon. There isn't anything in the game that you can't kill with those two weapons.

rohansoldier wrote:
I personally wouldn't call the necron codex broken.
[...]
It is the cron air build that is broken.

THANK YOU.
God, I'm sick of people telling me I only play Necrons because they're OP.
Yes, completely disregard the fact that I started playing 40k right before the codex dropped in 5th, making them my first army before I even knew what they were, AND that I only try to play TAC or fluffy lists, surely the only reason anyone would bother playing them is BECAUSE THEY'RE SOOOO OVER POWERED, THE NO-SKILL AUTO-WIN ARMY.
...
The flying circus can go shove a warscythe up where the emperor's benevolence don't shine.

Multi-melta attack bikes are good against the Necron Skimmers, same with Land Speeders.

Depends how many fliers he has, you could take Telion and have him man a quad gun.

AV13 spam is weak to Lascannons too. Plain-jane land raider is a good solution. Assault Termies inside will make mincemeat of most 'crons. (TH/SS) If you get Mindshackled, put the wounds on the guy that got mindshackled first.

...

That's all I've got.

I play AV13 spam with just one flier and that basically is what gives me fits on the battlefield. Goodluck.

Nercon air spam, wraith spam, mindshackle scarabs and re-roll techs are broken. If you use any of these (besides MSS on your main lord) you can't complain about your codex.

As to deal with cron air, first, you don't have to play your opponent.

Second, if you can't beat someone without tailoring, you will never get better.

Third, twin linked melta guns alone kill things, so I don't know why you are looking for assistance. A quad gun works wonders, as does any flier of your own, as does counter deploying his fliers.

@ RohanSoldier

It is absolutely Okay to offer your opinion about their Codex, i definately opened to door with my Tread Title . And i agree with you the Codex isn't Broken and it is very possible to beat. I was merely hassling the Cron players because IMO they are prob one of the top tier Armies at the moment. and i think if your one of the best you should have to deal with a little bit of pushing from the lower Seeds LOL.

So def no whining or Complaining just good natured chain-jerking. So please feel free to Post any thoughts or comments.

@skoffs

I actually was almost in your shoes. I bought the Necron Codex literally 2-3 days before the new one shipped out to the Game stores, I had no idea that they were coming out with a new Codex and Army Characters. So after spending a certain amount on the now obsolete Codex i was just grumpy at the Crons LOL and i went on to flesh out my IG army instead.

That being said i def don't judge any army as "Over Powered" or a "No Skill Auto Win" army, Heck i play GKs and they were pretty over powered in 5th. So no judgement here, the reason for the Tread Title is in my answer to RohanSoldier above.

@ Ioreweaver

I have Telion for my Ultramarines and i think i will try him back on the Quad gun and ADL. Thanks!

@ Juraigamer

Personally i never turn down a fight, even if the odds are i'll lose. Because most games you learn something new about your army or you think up a new strategy for the next game.
As to your second point, I agree, you shouldn't ever tailor an army for just one opponent. That being said a Drop Pod army with Vulkan is pretty beast against everyone ive put it against so far. it just happens to be very good against Crons as well.
But the Meta where i live and where i play is never stagnent and there are a bunch of different types of armies and players. Horde, flyers and gun lines are all there. So Vulkans Strike Team will be facing a little bit of them all. Not just CronAir. It just so happens that my friend bought all of his flyers the same day i was at our gaming store, when i ordered Vulkan and my LRRedeemer. and he challenged me to be the first fight for both our lists when completed. Hence the OP and Thread LOL

Oh and i lost btw it was before i got some drop pods and sternguards and tweaked the list to how i like it now.