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Cergorach wrote:

Mantic is joining the 21st century only a decade or so late...

GW started in 2007 when they switched (and the former plastics manager retired and started Renedra), so about 6 years ago?

 judgedoug wrote:

Cergorach wrote:

Mantic is joining the 21st century only a decade or so late...

GW started in 2007 when they switched (and the former plastics manager retired and started Renedra), so about 6 years ago?

GW's first plastics based on computer designs were the Rat Ogres which were released with the Lustria campaign (2004 or so?). But those were terrible, and it took a while for them to make decent computer based miniatures.

 judgedoug wrote:

Cergorach wrote:

Mantic is joining the 21st century only a decade or so late...

GW started in 2007 when they switched (and the former plastics manager retired and started Renedra), so about 6 years ago?

Who says that GW was a pioneer? GW wasn't all that great either back in the day, we're still stuck with the horrible GW zombie sculpts...

decker_cky wrote:

Earth Dragon wrote:

 Compel wrote:
Just remember, you're not charged until the end date. So you're better off pledging high at the start, then dropping the pledge down a bit once you start counting the pennies you've got, as opposed to waiting, then having to pay more.

I don't agree with this method. For the individual it works, but not on a large scale. It inaccurately portrays where the funds are at and becomes VERY frustrating to the company and other backers when multiple pledgers drop funds as soon as the stretch goal they were really waiting for gets met.

So for everyone's sake that's involved, please don't do this. Better to pledge what you have available and increase steadily throughout the kickstarter when funds become available, over suddenly dropping when you have second thoughts.

I don't think it has a negative effect on kickstarters at all. If done en masse, you have a lot of support for the kickstarter, which helps reach stretches, which makes it a better deal, which draws in more backers. I think it's a fully legit thing to do, and even though you may not end up paying into the kickstarter, it does make the kickstarter more successful.

You think 50 people all of a sudden dropping their pledges $300 a piece because they were overzealous on the first day has a positive impact on projects? Not in the slightest. It causes other backers to back out as well, and find other, more steady projects. I've seen it happen to Warzone and WWX for minor stretches, where they didn't grow much over the week with the amount of people dropping staying right with the amount joining, and when you make your initial pledge, and then see the amount drop 1k instead of going up, that is going to make you have second thoughts.

If we're talking $20-30, that's fine. You're only making a minor adjustment. But you should not be pledging money you don't have, and aren't 100% you are gonna get. (Like $50 your buddy "claims" he'll pay back to you or something). But seeing one pledge drop and the total falls $2000, and then you see 3 more pledges drop for about $500 between the lot in a particular situation let's me know that it is VERY damaging tactic to over do it. I had to cancel a pledge from a KS (nothing like the example I gave) and I know I did some harm. Should have never pledged what I did.

I may be misinterpretting the scale you are talking about, and if so please clarify, but when I read "pledge high" it's pledging what you don't know you can afford, and the results can damage the kickstarter when you have days when more of those folks decide to adjust down/cancel their pledge. I'm not saying don't pledge for the KS and wait until afterwards, I'm saying only pledge what you can afford during KS to avoid backing out later.


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decker_cky wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

Cergorach wrote:

Mantic is joining the 21st century only a decade or so late...

GW started in 2007 when they switched (and the former plastics manager retired and started Renedra), so about 6 years ago?

GW's first plastics based on computer designs were the Rat Ogres which were released with the Lustria campaign (2004 or so?). But those were terrible, and it took a while for them to make decent computer based miniatures.

Not to derail, but do you have a pic of which rat ogre that was?

Pledge high as in, "if my bonus comes in on time and the significant-other hasn't noticed yet, I will go for the collectors edition first, then drop down to the standard edition as a compromise if I'm caught out..."

I'm not suggesting anything like the crazy money ones. - Fiddling with that is just rude!

It's the current rat ogre/giant rat box:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440086a&prodId=prod1040496

And I don't think people are pledging with money they don't have (in any significant number). There's lots who jump in seeing momentum hoping for certain things that don't end up making it so they drop out, or jump in seeing lots of stuff that will be added then drop out when it turns out it isn't as much as was anticipated. If there's a thousand people following a kickstarter, then there's a thousand reasons for them to have backed it, and there could be a thousand reasons for them to drop their pledge. If you and five other people find reasons to drop your pledges at the same time, then the campaign is still probably better to have had your backing than to have never gotten that interest.

Honestly...the biggest cause of pledge dropping is early backer rewards. If there's a campaign with open early backer rewards and I might be interested, I'll back it. If it's not worthwhile in the end. The worst is campaigns with 'gifts' for early backers like the Through the Breach kickstarter. Leads to a huge early boost, then a bigger than normal lull in the kickstarter, and a risk of backer loss if momentum doesn't lead to new stretches.

 judgedoug wrote:

I was one of those Mantic-elf-haters until I owned some. The level of detail on them is pretty damn astounding. They are pretty fantastic models, actually.

 Barzam wrote:
I can't understand the hate for them either. Is it really just because they're skinny? They're really well detailed little figures.

I don't have any and have never seen them in person. It probably is because they're so skinny, regardless of how much detail they have. I'm not really in the market for more High Elves, but I do have quite a few GW ones. I have no interest in these from the images I've seen, though I don't "hate" them.

If they want this to be a boardgame-type entry level product, they should really try and invest in hard plastic. Even moreso if the models will cross over into Warpath "proper".

Well, Warzone had a guy who apparently thought he had some commission coming in, selected a 2000 GBP pledged level, and then had to drop it. This not only tied up that pledge for perhaps someone else, but was very deceptive. So there comes a point where if you don't have the money, don't claim you do.

Lost jobs or unexpected bills I can understand and wife intervention is always understandable, but "maybe" money shouldn't get thrown around. If you were gonna have it by the end, then pledge when you have it. It's those boosts in the middle when things seem lagging that really help people stay interested.

I'm just suggesting people don't put themselves in a position to add to the mid KS chaos, as it's starting to get worse and worse with the recent projects (as I was a guilty party on one).

Then perhaps projects shouldn't make rewards limited to quantities that will either run out, or increase in price after the first day, forcing people to guess at what they'll have available to pledge in a month. That knife cuts both ways...

Well, said, RT. Abso-fething-lutely nail on the head.

I was going to post on this last night, but thought I'd leave it, because you know how it gets late at night, but it's pissing me off how Kickstarter has become such a game to people trying to min-max their rewards by telling other people how and when to pledge.

"Pledge for as much as you can afford, and then constantly update your pledge adding more for the stretch goals as they are revealed." Sheesh. I'll either pledge early on or when I find out about a project if it really interests me, or if I can snag an early bird slot. Then I'll adjust it up or down in the last 2 days. Or if it's one I haven't pledged for I might go in at the end. - Like Secret Weapons' Battle boards - I missed the early birds, and it's not something I have to have, so meh, I'll decide at the end.

I was really interested in the Hell-Dorado one as well. Pledged for it, but due to not having the cash available when it ended, had to pull most of my pledge. If I can pledge-manager it back up later, I probably will. If not, ah well - I shall live a little longer regardless.


Honestly, posts like Earth Dragon's that are filled with telling people what and how they should pledge just make me want to screw with campaigns by dropping five thousand fake-dollars in and out. Purely out of spite. So please don't tell others how they should pledge. mmmkay?

 Azazelx wrote:
I was going to post on this last night, but thought I'd leave it, because you know how it gets late at night...

Maybe should've left it another night

Whatever dude. Mine was a response to someone else telling others how to pledge. So not sure why I was the bad guy pointing out how that can mess with stuff unintentionally and it wasn't a great idea "to tell people to pledge like that".

Mmmkay


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And I didn't feel like anyone else was being rude at all when disagreeing with me. It is definitely a two-way street I can most certainly see the benefits with trying to get initial funding quickly and maintaining. What's better? To teeter through stretch goals? Or struggle just to fund the initial box set? You are definitely asking for it when setting up EB specials (though, in the KS that has had some big pledges back out because money didn't show up, there was no EB specials).

 RiTides wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
I was going to post on this last night, but thought I'd leave it, because you know how it gets late at night...

Maybe should've left it another night

Nah. He kept on going on about it, so I think it's actually reasonable. It was also a reply to the whole conversation including "pledge high". People "should" pledge whatever they want as often or not as they want. If you want to put down $500 on day one and unfortunately need to drop it at the last moment because your fridge broke - or simply because you changed your mind - fine. If you want to pledge early, then adjust and micromanage your pledge daily in response to each stretch goal and add-on, also fine. If you want to ignore the campaign until there are 35mins to go and then drop $120. Fine.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Asking for it"? What?

 Azazelx wrote:
Honestly, posts like Earth Dragon's that are filled with telling people what and how they should pledge just make me want to screw with campaigns by dropping five thousand fake-dollars in and out. Purely out of spite. So please don't tell others how they should pledge. mmmkay?

Because when you're angry at Earth Dragon, the sensible thing to do is screw up some hapless entrepeneurs? Enviable logic, my good man.

Some one kept messing with the LOKA kickstarter. There was a while that every time they hit a stretch goal and announced it, someone would pull out a few thousand.

People doing that maliciously are / can be banned by Kickstarter, though, from what I have read. There's a difference between that and someone legitimately changing their mind (meaning they were sincere in their initial pledge, although usually there is guesswork involved with "early birds" due to unrevealed stretch goals and the true value of the pledge) or having a big expense come up, etc.

Earth Dragon wrote:
Well, Warzone had a guy who apparently thought he had some commission coming in, selected a 2000 GBP pledged level, and then had to drop it. This not only tied up that pledge for perhaps someone else, but was very deceptive. So there comes a point where if you don't have the money, don't claim you do.

True.

But I think the rather non-committing nature of Kickstarter-pledges is part of the sites success. Not a few Kickstarter-campaigns actually stress that point very deliberately.

Indiegogo, in contrast, charges you at the moment you make your pledge (and refunds you later if the campaign is unsuccessful). It keeps shenanigans like that out. Its also a much greater "barrier" to pledge - for some reason (though it shouldn't make any difference if you are sincere).

Human psychology as it is.

RiTides wrote:People doing that maliciously are / can be banned by Kickstarter, though, from what I have read. There's a difference between that and someone legitimately changing their mind (meaning they were sincere in their initial pledge, although usually there is guesswork involved with "early birds" due to unrevealed stretch goals and the true value of the pledge) or having a big expense come up, etc.

Yeah, the campaign organizer can see who is pledging, pulling pledges, etc.., so if someone was screwing with the system, they could have been given the boot.

 Zweischneid wrote:

But I think the rather non-committing nature of Kickstarter-pledges is part of the sites success. Not a few Kickstarter-campaigns actually stress that point very deliberately.

This is true, in fact Mantic was encouraging it during the Loka Kickstarter by directly saying "Pledge now, you can always drop down later if you like, no money is taken until the end of the campaign".

It's all a bit off-topic, but the fact of the matter is having an early rush is good due to the method that kickstarter and to a lesser extent kicktraq uses to give advertising to campaigns... the ones that are a big hit early on and hit multiples of their campaign targets get more promotion and it snowballs from there.

Early birds and trying to get as many day 1 backers as possible is just plain how to do kickstarter properly, there's no morals or ethics about it, just business. An early spike of funds attracts a lot of interest which translates to more funds and so on, especially with stacking stretch goals. Hitting the funding level also gives a nice boost as weirdly a lot of people will not back something that hasn't funded yet. You've all seen how it goes.

IMO, there's too much angst over flip-floppers in the middle of a lot of campaigns, I tend not to concern myself much with it (and you shouldn't either ED, it happens in all campaigns, haven't seen a single one where it didn't), although others stress out over it and sometimes drop their pledge if there isn't enough "action" or "excitement" in the middle.
I don't think many people actually do that though, the vast majority are there to buy a product at a low price/ get a ton of free stuff... quite a lot of people simply sign up for the 48 hour warning and never pledge on any KS until that point because they don't have time to be looking at all the stretch goals or micromanaging their pledge.

 Zweischneid wrote:

Earth Dragon wrote:
Well, Warzone had a guy who apparently thought he had some commission coming in, selected a 2000 GBP pledged level, and then had to drop it. This not only tied up that pledge for perhaps someone else, but was very deceptive. So there comes a point where if you don't have the money, don't claim you do.

True.

But I think the rather non-committing nature of Kickstarter-pledges is part of the sites success. Not a few Kickstarter-campaigns actually stress that point very deliberately.

Indiegogo, in contrast, charges you at the moment you make your pledge (and refunds you later if the campaign is unsuccessful). It keeps shenanigans like that out. Its also a much greater "barrier" to pledge - for some reason (though it shouldn't make any difference if you are sincere).

Human psychology as it is.

Sure. It's the same concept of "15 days free, but gives us your credit card". You are banking on a portion not paying attention and getting to charge them. Or "Send it back in 30 days for a full refund." Very common tactic which takes advantage of our inherent laziness.

From Ronnie's Facebook page .

Looks good, can we have more on topic discussion please?

Have to say think the terrain part of this is the bit that has got me most excited!

Even beyond Deadzone, regardless of what kind of game Mantic make, there are going to be a lot of Infinity, Necromunda (possibly even 40k) players who are going to be interested in this just because of the possibility of bulk terrain for dirt cheap.

Im hoping they have faction options as well. Im not likely to be interested in the whole game, or the Enforcers figures...but the Plague, in particular that big dude...I could use those.

I guess if the price is real good, and the terrain it comes with is nice, I could always sell off the Enforcers later on...

 Pacific wrote:
Have to say think the terrain part of this is the bit that has got me most excited!

Even beyond Deadzone, regardless of what kind of game Mantic make, there are going to be a lot of Infinity, Necromunda (possibly even 40k) players who are going to be interested in this just because of the possibility of bulk terrain for dirt cheap.

Same here!

I'm hoping that they even have a 'terrain only, and lots of it" option!

Definitely like the look of that shattered window. Very very nice.

pretty much interested in the terrain at this point.

As for the miniatures and game, depends. If they look anything like what war path currently is, I'll pass.

Very interested in terrain too

Secret Weapon Miniatures is partnering with Mantic to deliver their boards to UK backers with cheap shipping...

SWM will be making a plastic 'Urban Streets' battle board with Resin scatter terrain.

Mantic will be making heaps of plastic Urban buildings for their Warpath Deadzone Kickstarter.

By our powers combined...

Maybe there will be more partnerships to create gaming goodness.

^ The Mantic and Secret Weapon terrain are both completely different and separate things. I know you know that, just posting to make sure everyone else is aware.

Of course, a 4x4 SW urban board is likely to be very useful indeed for Deadzone and Mantic's plastic terrain.

Both kickstarters will be running at the same time for a couple of weeks, so you'll be able to pick what you want from both to get the complete urban board, terrain and minis up and running if you want to.

It's quite a nice partnership IMO, SW gets the benefit of the UK market, Mantic gets a product into its distribution channels which packs some serious competition to GW's RoB and Cities of Death.