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What/who do you think are the best CQC generic troops baring ICs?

Assault Termies are up there, as are Deathwing Knights.

Deathwing Knights in Smite mode = Rapetrain.

Depends, do you actually mean CQC or do you mean assault?

I'm very partial to saying that orks have the most useful CQC unit in the form of a 30 Shoota Boyz.

They get a disgusting amount of shots going in before the assault, and even though they lack an extra CC weapon they still get three attacks on the charge. You may kill a handful of boyz before they swing, but the reprisal will be swift and brutal. Throw in the fact that a full mob with a Nob in tow is cheap as chips and that they're fearless with a number of models over 10 and you have an incredibly hearty unit.

Death Company are expensive but they get 5 attacks on the charge, have Furious Charge, and are Fearless. They also have a lot of upgrades available to them. This is also a little bit of cheating but if you upgrade them with Lemartes (not an IC technically ) then they reroll to hit and to wound.

Harlequins.

ws5, i6, Rending, 4+ cover in the open, 2+ cover in terrain, ignore difficult and dangerous, fleet, furious charge, AND hit and run. Excellent synergy with psychic powers.

Really what more could you want in a close combat unit?

 akaean wrote:
Harlequins.

ws5, i6, Rending, 4+ cover in the open, 2+ cover in terrain, ignore difficult and dangerous, fleet, furious charge, AND hit and run. Excellent synergy with psychic powers.

Really what more could you want in a close combat unit?

Did a proxy game as Eldar, omg the Harlequins destroyed everything they touched. A pack of them with Eldrad ate Abaddon and 5 termies in one round of combat.

 Condas wrote:

 akaean wrote:
Harlequins.

ws5, i6, Rending, 4+ cover in the open, 2+ cover in terrain, ignore difficult and dangerous, fleet, furious charge, AND hit and run. Excellent synergy with psychic powers.

Really what more could you want in a close combat unit?

Did a proxy game as Eldar, omg the Harlequins destroyed everything they touched. A pack of them with Eldrad ate Abaddon and 5 termies in one round of combat.

That must've been some very lucky rolling.

Ork boyz, every time.

 gpfunk wrote:

 Condas wrote:

 akaean wrote:
Harlequins.

ws5, i6, Rending, 4+ cover in the open, 2+ cover in terrain, ignore difficult and dangerous, fleet, furious charge, AND hit and run. Excellent synergy with psychic powers.

Really what more could you want in a close combat unit?

Did a proxy game as Eldar, omg the Harlequins destroyed everything they touched. A pack of them with Eldrad ate Abaddon and 5 termies in one round of combat.

That must've been some very lucky rolling.

Okay, to be fair Abaddon was softened up by (mind war?) and a couple ranger rends first. No models were killed from the shooting though.

I would also be a fan of Death Company if they didn't cost an arm and a leg with jump packs.

DC. 4+ fnp, rapid fire bolters with relentless, fearless, up to 30 of them with furious charge, lemrtes and powerswords. Ws5, 3 attacks (5 on chrge) makes 90 minimum attacks if outfitted for CC. 30 orks= dead. hell make em all poweraxe and any number of termies dies.

Broodlord with 19 stealers that have sytals and toxin.

Add biomancy powers to that...

57 poison attacks with rending.
between 5-8 broodlord attacks (if you get WS)

and the whole squad can have FnP

 akaean wrote:
Harlequins.

ws5, i6, Rending, 4+ cover in the open, 2+ cover in terrain, ignore difficult and dangerous, fleet, furious charge, AND hit and run. Excellent synergy with psychic powers.

Really what more could you want in a close combat unit?

I've had these guys on a shelf for the past year or so (since I bought them..). I decided to play them last week for the first time in a game against some CSM, just for something different. 5 + Shadow Seer hit Kharn and 8 berzerkers. The berzerkers died first round without doing anything, however, the Harlies kept Kharn tied up for 4 more.. Points wise, it worked to keep that beast away from everything else I had on the table and they'll certainly feature in future lists. Funny thing is that I forgot about hit and run during the game. Probably could have rolled over kharn earlier.

Point for point I'm throwing my money on flesh hounds of khorne. Throw a herald of khorne in there to give them rage or hatred and a 3+ invuln. Then they are multi-wound, fast mothers that hit like a sack filled with sacks full of bricks. They just force too many saves on your opponent for them to do anything. That and they cost half as much as a death company, and have two wounds with a 3+ invuln. That deathstar costs oh what, 450 point for 20 hounds and a herald. Throw me a unit that can handle them in any CC that is worth their points.


Wait actually... Do that. T'm bored and I want to do some mathhammer, so throw me your best CC units that you think would stand up to 20 hounds and a herald for ~500 points

80 termagaunts and a tyranid prime with 2x boneswords and rending claws w/toxin sacks. Melee wise its useless, CQC though that's min 80 rounds prob about 15-20 saves, 5 wounds equating into 2 1/2 dead. And that's without rapidfire and snapfire. Then in melee Tyranid Prime can kill freely using gaunts as woundshields

Wraiths are, point for point, the best assault unit in the game, nothing else can compare to them.

A lot of the above unit's seem to b on a "If I had unlimited points" basis, which is unrealistic. Personally, i'd have to say ork boys, because they deal with everything through sheer weight of attacks, be it marines, terminators, guard, anything, point for point, they wreak things.

 Evileyes wrote:
A lot of the above unit's seem to b on a "If I had unlimited points" basis, which is unrealistic. Personally, i'd have to say ork boys, because they deal with everything through sheer weight of attacks, be it marines, terminators, guard, anything, point for point, they wreak things.

I was saying that i think flesh hounds are the best point for point. In fact if flesh hounds got the charge off on points equivalent ork squad (20 hounds + herald ~~495 points, 90 ork boys with +1 attack for pistol CCW ~~540), they would kill them. They would both whittle the crap down out of eachother, but hounds win with about 6 models (multi-wound) remaining + herald. And you have to ask yourself, which is most likely to get the charge off? hounds that move 12" and ignore all terrain, scout 12", run re-rolling with fleet, and charge ignoring all terrain with fleet, or footslogging infantry?

Hounds would wipe an ork squad on the charge on average, while killing 19 if they got charged before they could even swing.

It doesn't look good for the ork boys in points equivalent matches.

Even without the herald and grimoire:
1 hound squad of 11 hounds (~~176 points) charging 30 boys (~~180 points) would kill them, with about 6 models (multi-wound) remaining.

9x Tyranid Warriors, upgraded out the wazoo, have to be up there. First, they're 3W/3A base. You can give them Adrenal Glands for +1S on the charge, Toxin Sacs for Poison 4+ (which will generally mean rerolls to wound vs most things), lashwhip + bone sword (for making enemies I1, ignoring all armour saves and causing ID on a failed Ld check) and devourers (3x S4 shots which force enemies which take casualties to take a morale check at -1).

Ridiculously expensive, but if costs weren't an option, then these things could wreck face. Only S8+ will make them cry, which can be slightly mitigated by a Tyrant Prime (who also just plain makes their stats better).

'nid warriors are just the equivalent of 3 Marines though.

Guard infantry squads. Cheap and cheerful to lure the enemy in. Then they evaporate in combat leaving the enemy unit high and dry to face the guns of the rest of the army

 Furyou Miko wrote:
'nid warriors are just the equivalent of 3 Marines though.

Yeah but you can take them in squads of 9... at that point they're more than "just 3 Marines" though since they'll have a ton of combat upgrades.

For close quarters (ie, withing 12"), pound for pound I'm gonna have to go with Grey Hunters.

For close combat, I've got to agree with Harlequins. Dem space clowns is nasty.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Depends, do you actually mean CQC or do you mean assault?

Sorry, I meant the assaulting part, so between the 12' range to melee.
So which assault-focused unit, in your opinion, can counter or have the better advantage against another assault-focused unit?

Black Knights on the charge

For Marines, point for point it has to be Death Company. They're just silly for 20 points now that their Rage is nothing but a benefit. WS5, FNP, Rage, Furious Charge, any number of power weapons to deal with terminators if you so desire. Add in a chaplain and it's balls to the walls with rerolls. Biggest problem, as usual, is transporting them.

I'd go with my incubi, who else gets ap 2 at I (I5 no less!) with 2 attacks base and WS5? Its amazing against Meq and with a 3+ save they can survive overwatch. Incubi are amazing.

Ive also heard a lot good things about the beastpack, but i have never used them. But im hearing they are a super assult unit.

Incubi are indeed awesome, but so are Harlequins.

For I think the same points costs (Incubi are 22 each right?) you have an eldar with I6, 4 attacks on the charge, WS5, Furious charge, rending and an 5+ invulnerable save?

They also ignore terrain when they move and have hit and run, plus a permanent cover save.

Ok so we lose out on armour and ap compared to the Incubi, but when those power weapon hits start rolling in, it is good to be a Harlequin.

 gnoise wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Depends, do you actually mean CQC or do you mean assault?

Sorry, I meant the assaulting part, so between the 12' range to melee.
So which assault-focused unit, in your opinion, can counter or have the better advantage against another assault-focused unit?

Well, that's tricky.

Some units are VERY good in the 1" to 12" range (close-quarters combat), while others are very good in the 0" to 3" range (melee combat).

Some units are excellent at both, like Spinefist Tyranid Warriors or Ork Boyz.

For 1" to 12" range, it's hard to do better than 20 Battle Sisters with flamers or meltaguns and faith to burn at the same number of points (250-280 depending on other upgrades). They scythe through hordes and overwhelm elites with sheer bullet hell. Once you get into close combat, though, they'll be steamrolled by most anything with more than a single attack or I4.

Then you get something like Khorne Berserkers who will slaughter most anything in close combat, but tend to come off badly with only pistols to use at 6"-12".

Horses for courses. I play both, using both a halestar and incubi in venoms, i find both very effective. Incubi get access to a venom, which is a big advantage. Incubi are str 4 all the time with access to str 5. Feel no pain and fearless is an option, all of which are bonus over haliequins.

While they lose out on H&R and higher I its a fair trade off for 3+ armour and arguabley more menoverability (venoms) but i must admit a halestar is one of the most survibale thing in the game (2++ re-rollable!).