can you shoot something you cannot hurt ?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**reds8n**

Inspired by a few recent games and a couple of threads that are active on here at the moment ..

Is it permissible to shoot at something you cannot hurt ?

At least directly anyway.

Was wondering with regards to flying MCs and Iron arm ( is that the one ?) that can add to a models T score. I believe that this could raise a models T score so that certain weapons wouldn't be able to hurt the target . However flying MCs have to take a grounding test if they are hit, not wounded, so t'would seem to me that it would be possible to ( say) shoot lasguns at a T8 Flying MC, purely to trigger a grounding test .. yes ?

Or am I overlooking something somewhere ?

**Deadshot**

I don't see anything that says you can't. I'd be unhappy but allow it if it were me.

**MarkyMark**

You can shot marker lights at FMC;s which cause grounding tests, marker lights cant hurt it so I would say yes

**BolterUnlimited**

You are allowed to shoot at things you cannot hurt, Oh Holy And Powerful Moderator, though if you do this, you may roll the hit dice, but not the wound dice. Which kinda is a waste of time.

**Rorschach9**

BolterUnlimited wrote:
You are allowed to shoot at things you cannot hurt, Oh Holy And Powerful Moderator, though if you do this, you may roll the hit dice, but not the wound dice. Which kinda is a waste of time.

Except in the case of FMC's that are must take a test to be grounded if *hit* (not wounded). So, even though you can't wound it by shooting, you can still target and HIT it (causing a grounding test).

Personally, I'd rather see a FMC grounded than flying around my troops, even if I did not hurt it with that unit specifically.

**undertow**

In the previous Codex when Fateweaver could split fire, I would often fire one of his attacks (Warpfire, for example) into a tanks front armor where I had no chance of even glancing that vehicle. I'd put two shots he was allowed into nearby infantry (Daemonic Gaze and Breath of Chaos), then I'd charge the tank and wreck it in melee. Or if he was near two vehicles, I'd throw Bolt of Tzeentch (S8 AP1) at one and any other attack at the other, then charge whichever survived the shooting.

**rigeld2**

reds8n wrote:
Inspired by a few recent games and a couple of threads that are active on here at the moment ..

Is it permissible to shoot at something you cannot hurt ?

We know you have permission to shoot a unit at a FMC.
Are there any rules prohibiting firing at something you can't hurt?

**BolterUnlimited**

None, unless a codex says otherwise.

**Idolator**

Yes you can fire at models that you cannot hurt.

It comes in handy during a night fight situation. Your vehicles, such as sentinels with turbo las and a search light, would be able to fire at a land raider or leman russ, effectively lighting it up for all of your other weapons.

That is a cheap point cost for lots of effectiveness.

**Super Ready**

It's not there now (presumably since it doesn't need to be!) but I'm sure in 5th, it was mentioned in the FAQs that you could indeed fire at something you couldn't hurt, to allow the searchlight trick to work. It now just extends to grounding FMCs as well.

Note that it couldn't possibly be illegal to shoot at something you couldn't hurt, or markerlights could never be fired at *anything*.

**reds8n**

Super Ready wrote:
It's not there now (presumably since it doesn't need to be!) but I'm sure in 5th, it was mentioned in the FAQs that you could indeed fire at something you couldn't hurt, to allow the searchlight trick to work. .

Maybe that's what's half lodged in the dusty recesses of my mind then, I knew I'd read something about it somewhere and somewhen but...

Somehow or other that trick with the Sentinels/whatever had passed me by.. now I've just got to remember it during a game !

**Super Ready**

Not just Sentinels, but a sizeable chunk of Imperial vehicles... most common one other than the Sentinel is the Rhino with its bog-standard storm bolter. And, by extension, the Chaos Rhino too.

**easysauce**

sure,

marker lights cant hurt anything,

but can hit and cause grounding tests,

why couldnt las guns?

**foxyfennec**

This causes massive problems with Vehicle Squadrons and meltas though :(

Like if you have a heavy bolter in an IG command squad of any kind, 2 meltas, 1 plasma pistol (weird configuration but just as an example)

They all fire at the closest vehicle (within 12"), the first shot destroys it, then the heavy bolter's range of 36" allows the remaining hits to go against the next vehicle in the squadron which is out of range of the 12".

This is how I interpret the rules anyway is there anyone who can shed light on why this isn't the case? (Fairness doesn't count)

I'd love it if GW could clarify this on the FAQ.

This could mean if you have a column of Leman Russ, or squad of sentinels the whole squad could be wiped out by 12" special weapons with the range of a weaker weapon.

But if you have a missile launcher that makes it even worse because the missile launcher CAN damage them.

I should make a new topic for this actually asking whether these rules when read properly mean this can happen.

**Super Ready**

Huh - I could've sworn this was answered in another thread not TOO long ago, but can't find it now. In any case - you're correct, however it's not QUITE as terribly bad as you'd think with melta in particular. Check page 77, it stipulates that you assign and resolve each hit individually.
So yes, the melta has already hit by this point - but as the vehicle is further away when you check for penetration, you don't get the extra D6 benefit.