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 Melissia wrote:
I'm just used to people trying to act like space marines aren't space marines.

You aren't used to me acting that way.

And yet, even so, I still have no real problem with there being functionally seven SM codices. TBH, I think 40k is a game about Space Marines and everyone else is just who they fight against or beside. I'm not saying it always has been that or always will be that or that it's best. But I don't see it as a bad thing, either.

 Manchu wrote:
And yet, even so, I still have no real problem with there being functionally seven SM codices. TBH, I think 40k is a game about Space Marines and everyone else is just who they fight against or beside. I'm not saying it always has been that or always will be that or that it's best. But I don't see it as a bad thing, either.

I wouldn't have a problem with it if it wasn't JUST marines having seven books about basically the same exact guys. But it is. I'm not taking any position on cutting codices, I'd just like to see more, and more consistent updating while we're at it.

And while I'm wishing for heavenly bliss, I might as well also ask to win the lottery as well.

I think having multiple books could be a bad thing or at least inappropriate for some existing factions. SoB orders, for example, seem more uniform than either SM chapters or IG regiments. Similarly, there is a cultural uniformity among Craftworlders -- the path system is common and crucial to them all. I'm not sure it would make any sense to sort out Tyranids into different lists. And the Tau all like to do things the same way, at least ideally.

 Manchu wrote:
I think having multiple books could be a bad thing or at least inappropriate for some existing factions. SoB orders, for example, seem more uniform than either SM chapters or IG regiments. Similarly, there is a cultural uniformity among Craftworlders -- the path system is common and crucial to them all. I'm not sure it would make any sense to sort out Tyranids into different lists. And the Tau all like to do things the same way, at least ideally.

And ideally Space Marines all act the same way, too! That's why they have the Codex Astartes after all. But... there's a few exceptions just like everyone else (even Tau despite their tiny, insignificant size!). The difference is that those exceptions are given their own books, unlike everyone else.

 Manchu wrote:
I think having multiple books could be a bad thing or at least inappropriate for some existing factions. SoB orders, for example, seem more uniform than either SM chapters or IG regiments.

We could start by SoB getting one book...

 Melissia wrote:
And ideally Space Marines all act the same way, too! That's why they have the Codex Astartes after all.

Exactly so -- which is why the SM who get their own books are played up as non-adherent (even if that is debatable).

 Crimson wrote:
We could start by SoB getting one book...

Keep in mind they have done once already. And, if C:GK in any indication, will probably do so again if/when they "return" at all.

pwntallica wrote:
I'm not saying that the different chapters are as different from vanilla marines as tau are from necrons, but I am saying they are different enough.

If the differences can be covered in 1-3 pages of rules, it's hard to see how they'd need an entire book. Look at BA's, they've got Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, Sanguinary priests and everything else is largely stat/FoC/weapon/special rule/etc swaps and can be covered in a couple pages of "may take X with the following changes for Y points".

To paraphrase my previous point, I proposed one separate supplementary dex to contain BA/DA/BT, that would be used with C:SM. I really don't see an issue with this approach.

It would certainly be better than the current situation, and entirely doable, though I still think they all could easily be fit in a single book with their variety largely intact.

But if they were to do both those things, then they would have only reduced the number of codex books by 1, and people would still complain about unrealistically cramming all the SM armies in one book, and then start on cramming the legion book, CSM, and CD into one book again.

See, I don't think it's unrealistic to have everything in one book. The CSM 3.5 dex did it wonderfully. It had its issues, but they were largely issues of execution not of the underlying concept. The vast majority of the chapter-specific stuff is variations on existing units of some type, be they weapon swaps or stat changes or FoC swaps, etc. The few actual unique units and rules wouldn't have much trouble being covered in a relatively small number of pages.

A great example can be found in the game Heavy Gear. With hundreds of units and variants in the game they manage to create rules for different city states for each league (e.g. roughly analgous to individual chapter rules within say, C:SM) and different types of regiments (armor, infantry, gear, para, specops), along with universal and unit specific veteran rules, and they could all fit on maybe a ten pages if you took out the huge big color pictures. If they can do it, with like 2 permanent staff members, certainly GW can.

 Manchu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
And ideally Space Marines all act the same way, too! That's why they have the Codex Astartes after all.

Exactly so -- which is why the SM who get their own books are played up as non-adherent (even if that is debatable).

So give books to the exceptions of other factions.

The only reason Sisterhood orders seem more uniform than Marine chapters is because there hasn't been a Codex: Argent Shroud or Codex: Ebon Chalice.

Somehow, Martyred Lady are the 'default' Sisters, even though really it should be Ebon Chalice if you go based off which Order is associated with the leading Saint. But then, Dark Angels should be the default Astartes by the same logic, lol.

There could be two Tau codices - Tau Empire and Farsight Enclave.

There could be two Dark Eldar codices - DEldar: Kabals and DEldar: Covens of the Haemonculi

There could be two Necron codices - Codex Necrons: The Triarch Legacy and Necrons: The New Way (with TNW including things like Deathmarks and Wraiths whose use in war is forbidden under the Triarch's laws).

There could be SIX Ork Codices!

 Psienesis wrote:

Never played an RPG, have you?

Nope, I find the whole role playing thing to be a little weird and unsavoury, but that's irrelevant to the topic.

We don't buy hundreds of minis (usually), but the price in books alone can reach $1000.

Really? See that may be your experience, but most people I know have the rule book (between $15 and $75) and two codices. That's nothing like the $1000 you're experiencing. I've not paid for a single new book, getting my rule book and two codices off ebay. My overall expenditure has been in the range of $60.

Give them an option for the rules to half a dozen (or more) armies in one book? Hell, yes, people will buy that.

The people who are already in the game would do that, I agree. However someone just starting, I feel would be a little irritated that not only did they spend $100 on something where they intend to only use 1/2 the models, but then they have to buy a book that they are only going to use 1/6 of the rules.
If I was told "oh to play space wolves you need to buy the C:SM, BA, DA, SW and BT books, I'd tell the clerk to find another customer while I head on over to my friends house with a scanner.

There could be any number of new books depending on what kind of new fluff you wanted to introduce. But here we are without that fluff, at least with regard to the examples I gave. So the issue is not what could be made up in the future -- because that's rather pointless, it could be just about anything (Codex: Chaos Sisters, Codex: Chaos Tau) -- but rather what is currently known. With Tau, you have special characters doing all the necessary work -- because no different units are at issue. Same goes from Necrons and Deldar. By contrast, should there be Sanguinary Priest, or Interrogator Chaplain, or Tunderwolf options in a vanilla SM book?

I guess the difference can be summed up as talking about creating new things on the one hand, which is not what I'm talking about, and how to best preserve what already exists on the other hand.

 Manchu wrote:
should there be [...] Tunderwolf options in a vanilla SM book?

Dude, I don't even think there should be TWC in the Space Wolf codex.

I don't think I'd cut anything, really. If there are people who'd buy specialized rules for each chapter, then there's no reason GW shouldn't make them.

Just keep it fething balanced, and don't let other armies to out of date for it.

 Melissia wrote:
I don't even think there should be TWC in the Space Wolf codex.

And plenty of people don't like Tomb Crons. But that's what we have.

 Manchu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I don't even think there should be TWC in the Space Wolf codex.

And plenty of people don't like Tomb Crons. But that's what we have.

Heh, tombcrons. That's a new one for me.

I'm just saying, there is a completely different level at which this question could be answered -- something like, what do you hate about the setting as-is and what codex structure would fix that? But I had something else in mind, namely, given the fluff and rules as they currently exists in GW's publications, could some of the SM books be folded into each other or would there need to be more books, etc?

 Manchu wrote:
I'm just saying, there is a completely different level at which this question could be answered -- something like, what do you hate about the setting as-is and what codex structure would fix that? But I had something else in mind, namely, given the fluff and rules as they currently exists in GW's publications, could some of the SM books be folded into each other or would there need to be more books, etc?

For me, I think that lies at the heart of why I wouldn't cut anything. Or much, at any rate. Maybe BT or BA don't warrant their own codex. I dunno, I'm not familiar enough with those armies to say. But Grey Knights and Space Wolves do operate in a radically different way from vanilla marines, to the point that a separate codex might be justifiable. I feel like if GW handled it better, and made more balanced books and kept things up to date as opposed to using it as an excuse to indulge in powercreep shenanigans, everyone would be a lot happier about it.

C:SM is the baseline 40k army. The next level of "core-ness" is MEQ. One benefit of having so many SM (=MEQ) books is that GW can test out core-level changes (e.g., splitting fire) without necessarily risking the baseline.

To OP: I get what you are trying to say about grey knights and chaos but to make a fair comparison:

Sisters should not have there own codex, they should be regular guard with the ability to upgrade to power armour, as they are regular humans.

Dark eldar should not have there own codex either, as they are eldar.

Ok, so "technically" fluff wise they are (or once were) space marines, but its not fair to throw their codex in the same boat as blood angels or BT (which I play btw) when even there basic stat line are not space marine any more.

 Manchu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
And ideally Space Marines all act the same way, too! That's why they have the Codex Astartes after all.

Exactly so -- which is why the SM who get their own books are played up as non-adherent (even if that is debatable).

 Crimson wrote:
We could start by SoB getting one book...

Keep in mind they have done once already. And, if C:GK in any indication, will probably do so again if/when they "return" at all.

I have a feeling that, if the Kroot are gone from the new Tau codex, they will release a Mercenaries codex. And then we'll see 6th ed Sisters of battle, but just new rules. No new models, no new units.This is just conjecture, however, but I would not be surprised if that did happen.

 Ozomoto wrote:
To OP: I get what you are trying to say about grey knights and chaos but to make a fair comparison:

Sisters should not have there own codex, they should be regular guard with the ability to upgrade to power armour, as they are regular humans.

Dark eldar should not have there own codex either, as they are eldar.

Ok, so "technically" fluff wise they are (or once were) space marines, but its not fair to throw their codex in the same boat as blood angels or BT (which I play btw) when even there basic stat line are not space marine any more.

Just had a 'what am I reading?' Moment. I mean, I'm no expert, but lets be real here, Dark Eldar and SoB need their own codex. You can't roll them into Eldar and IG, respectively, because the force operates differently on an intrinsic level. Different units,different combat philosophy, different rules. There's a lot more that goes into a codex than simple statlines.

 TermiesInARaider wrote:

 Ozomoto wrote:
To OP: I get what you are trying to say about grey knights and chaos but to make a fair comparison:

Sisters should not have there own codex, they should be regular guard with the ability to upgrade to power armour, as they are regular humans.

Dark eldar should not have there own codex either, as they are eldar.

Ok, so "technically" fluff wise they are (or once were) space marines, but its not fair to throw their codex in the same boat as blood angels or BT (which I play btw) when even there basic stat line are not space marine any more.

Just had a 'what am I reading?' Moment. I mean, I'm no expert, but lets be real here, Dark Eldar and SoB need their own codex. You can't roll them into Eldar and IG, respectively, because the force operates differently on an intrinsic level. Different units,different combat philosophy, different rules. There's a lot more that goes into a codex than simple statlines.

Ya...... that is exactly what im saying? This post is basically about if the SM codex are to similar and should be abolished. Im arguing that even having chaos and grey knights in the options is not fair, let alone arguing if they should be cut. Im saying what you are saying, idk where your getting what i m saying from?


Edit: To clarify i was using the examples of sisters of battle being humans etc to argue that chaos and gk are SM, but at the end of the day aren't. It wasn't entirely clear without reading my previous posts.

 Manchu wrote:
I'm just saying, there is a completely different level at which this question could be answered -- something like, what do you hate about the setting as-is and what codex structure would fix that? But I had something else in mind, namely, given the fluff and rules as they currently exists in GW's publications, could some of the SM books be folded into each other or would there need to be more books, etc?

All of them could be folded in to a single book with some core units and various variant rules.

It's not a realistic feat we'd want to see GW attempt, but it's certainly more than possible.

 Ozomoto wrote:

 TermiesInARaider wrote:

 Ozomoto wrote:
To OP: I get what you are trying to say about grey knights and chaos but to make a fair comparison:

Sisters should not have there own codex, they should be regular guard with the ability to upgrade to power armour, as they are regular humans.

Dark eldar should not have there own codex either, as they are eldar.

Ok, so "technically" fluff wise they are (or once were) space marines, but its not fair to throw their codex in the same boat as blood angels or BT (which I play btw) when even there basic stat line are not space marine any more.

Just had a 'what am I reading?' Moment. I mean, I'm no expert, but lets be real here, Dark Eldar and SoB need their own codex. You can't roll them into Eldar and IG, respectively, because the force operates differently on an intrinsic level. Different units,different combat philosophy, different rules. There's a lot more that goes into a codex than simple statlines.

Ya...... that is exactly what im saying? This post is basically about if the SM codex are to similar and should be abolished. Im arguing that even having chaos and grey knights in the options is not fair, let alone arguing if they should be cut. Im saying what you are saying, idk where your getting what i m saying from?


Edit: To clarify i was using the examples of sisters of battle being humans etc to argue that chaos and gk are SM, but at the end of the day aren't. It wasn't entirely clear without reading my previous posts.

I think the wording of it was a bit confusing, but now that it's cleared up yeah, that's pretty much where it's at.

I would add one. Heroes of the Space Marines, I'd call it. It would be a book of nothing but independent commanders like the ones in the Space Marine codex, in order to represent a few dozen more of the hundreds of Space Marine chapters.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I would add one. Heroes of the Space Marines, I'd call it. It would be a book of nothing but independent commanders like the ones in the Space Marine codex, in order to represent a few dozen more of the hundreds of Space Marine chapters.

Or - here's a thought - what if we could choose between all those chapter tactics without a special character!

 Crimson wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I would add one. Heroes of the Space Marines, I'd call it. It would be a book of nothing but independent commanders like the ones in the Space Marine codex, in order to represent a few dozen more of the hundreds of Space Marine chapters.

Or - here's a thought - what if we could choose between all those chapter tactics without a special character!

Ah, but this would mean less things the players have to buy, thus less profits, and we can't have that, can we?

 TermiesInARaider wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I would add one. Heroes of the Space Marines, I'd call it. It would be a book of nothing but independent commanders like the ones in the Space Marine codex, in order to represent a few dozen more of the hundreds of Space Marine chapters.

Or - here's a thought - what if we could choose between all those chapter tactics without a special character!

Ah, but this would mean less things the players have to buy, thus less profits, and we can't have that, can we?

If they have to buy a hq, whether a captain, librarian, or whatever then does it matter.

They could have a a few special chapter HQ upgrade packs that include must have things on them for you to get the chapter tactics. Id prefer this, and they would be getting more money anyway. ( have to buy a hq + an upgrade pack rather then a special character)

Having to use Special Charactors to unlock a specific chapter is supa lame.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I would add one. Heroes of the Space Marines, I'd call it. It would be a book of nothing but independent commanders like the ones in the Space Marine codex, in order to represent a few dozen more of the hundreds of Space Marine chapters.

I love that idea.

In all this discussion, people are not thinking about what is really driving the codex system and that is the sale of models.

You cant roll the SW, BA, DA, GK etc into one book because GW has to manage the release of new models to coincide with the release of new rules. Space Marines are the bread and butter and the sales engine that actually enables us to have models and rules for the less popular races.

GW still needs to get off its lazy butt and produce codexes like Ere We Go were there were multiple lists for all the clans. Freebooters only had a page but that was because they eventually received a whole book.

The content of a "heroes of the Space Marines" book should be included in the regular SM codex since they are charging so much for it.

I think combining the IG and SoB is a very bad idea. The SoB need and deserve their own book with lots of supporting units like they had in the Witch Hunter Codex. The SoB also need more dedicated SoB unit types and vehicles added as well.