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You cant roll the SW, BA, DA, GK etc into one book because GW has to manage the release of new models to coincide with the release of new rules. this untrue.

they release new rules after several years of conflicting Q&A, because newer players cannot understand certain grammar in which GW writes material

(GW has mentioned this in WD on a number of occasions. idk if they are using a different approach/model now, as it appears they are still doing exactly like they were before management/change of Ownership- some 2-5 years ago)



Space Marines are the bread and butter and the sales engine that actually enables us to have models and rules for the less popular races.

While this is 100% true. in relation to space marines (only).

while at the same time a 100% false presumption they drive sales up or down.

in relation to their space marines, well yeah that's obvious. but in other "less popular races" it is not so.

you cannot have one race drive up the market of say Dark Eldar as it is a different target niche market to that of the niche market of space marines.

they bring sales regardless of percieved "popularity".

the only reasoning behind they are "more popular" is because they are GW's Love child. one of the first armies they began mass producing.

if Dark Eldar (example again) were released/manufactured first then they'd in your assumption "drive the market sales".
but there is differing markets within markets. and that is fine. because it is all just a Niche market either way

 Jimsolo wrote:
I would add one. Heroes of the Space Marines, I'd call it. It would be a book of nothing but independent commanders like the ones in the Space Marine codex, in order to represent a few dozen more of the hundreds of Space Marine chapters.

That is a damn good idea.

Honestly, I'd be fine with all the non codex-adhering chapters being rolled into C:SM if we got a rulebook dedicated exclusively to providing additional rules for the non-standard chapters.

 Orkimedes1000 wrote:
You cant roll the SW, BA, DA, GK etc into one book because GW has to manage the release of new models to coincide with the release of new rules. this untrue.

they release new rules after several years of conflicting Q&A, because newer players cannot understand certain grammar in which GW writes material

(GW has mentioned this in WD on a number of occasions. idk if they are using a different approach/model now, as it appears they are still doing exactly like they were before management/change of Ownership- some 2-5 years ago)



Space Marines are the bread and butter and the sales engine that actually enables us to have models and rules for the less popular races.

While this is 100% true. in relation to space marines (only).

while at the same time a 100% false presumption they drive sales up or down.

in relation to their space marines, well yeah that's obvious. but in other "less popular races" it is not so.

you cannot have one race drive up the market of say Dark Eldar as it is a different target niche market to that of the niche market of space marines.

they bring sales regardless of percieved "popularity".

the only reasoning behind they are "more popular" is because they are GW's Love child. one of the first armies they began mass producing.

if Dark Eldar (example again) were released/manufactured first then they'd in your assumption "drive the market sales".
but there is differing markets within markets. and that is fine. because it is all just a Niche market either way

They are not more popular because they are GW's love child. You have it exactly backwards, GW loves them because they are popular.

They are not popular because they were the first to be mass produced. Orks, Eldar and the Imperial Army all had models released at the beginning. Just look at the first "Book of the Astronomican" and you will see plenty of models for all these armies. Orks, Imperial Guard and even Squats all were supported early on with cheap plastic troops. With the books "Waaargh the Orks, Ere We Go, and Freebooters" it is clear that Orks had really good support from the beginning.

I never said space marines drive sales up or down, the great success of space marines means that some codexes that are not carrying their weight can be maintained as part of the over all system.

Quote: "because GW has to manage the release of new models to coincide with the release of new rules". unquote

it matters little in the debate at hand which came first it was merely an example (if i used necrons or space toads it'd matter just as little, fluff wise). and GW does have a lovechild. it is the SM of both varieties. before the squat they had IG, but are IG any more Popular than the space marines? are IG advertised as the "be all end all" no it's generally Ultramarines. every boxed set beside chapter specific sets feature Ultramarines on the front. it has been this way since 2nd edition, possibly earlier. other than that

quote "the great success of space marines means that some codexes that are not carrying their weight can be maintained as part of the over all system." unquote .


because the majority aren't holding their own weight,

but then again we'll have player X wanting to retain some special privilege for his chapter over player Y and so on.

if you roll all into one it ONLY work if several were in one book, another few in another and so on.

40k is the only wargame outside of warhammer fantasy with total un-needed amount of "codex/army books"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
i use term lovechild because of GW's overall fixation on free advertising on certain merchandise.

it is simply a "one use, general term" meaning why not add black templars onto 3rd edition boxed sets (or any other chapter, not that is an issue here)?

why not promote another army as the "centralized defining force"? the answer simply is because it is easier and More likely that a new player will paint his models blue if they are space marines, they include blue in the paint set, so thats one thing they do not have to worry about,

another thing is why always release a "space marine test model" in paint sets ever since 2nd edition?

not everyone would have felt the need to paint said space marine. most would have done so because it was there first miniature/s.

if they were IG or DE or Squat then the likelyhood of them collecting that army is % wise greater than if they first painted something else.

it is pretty basic economics of product placement due in part to "intentional/unintentional promotion" of said product. if it were a unit of imperial guard they would collect guard, that is all i was meaning. how far down this rabbit hole do you want to venture?

because at the bottom you'll find nothing that hasn't been said before by someone else in this thread, but in a different manner or wording


Automatically Appended Next Post:
GW love space Marines because they probably have always sold more units vs some other races unit would have sold. think about it.
space marines have had countless "influxes" of new miniatures since the early 90's (possibly late 80's) and as the years roll by they only release yet more space marine units and chapters and stuff we can collect, (if we WANTED TO).

and continue to ignore the majority until a rules edition scheduled for next updated best thing to hit since sliced bread, for 40k (what was broken in 3rd or 4th or 5th. for that matter why aren't we still using RT rules?
but updated?
because it comes down to potential loss of sales $$$$$$$$)

(and you me and everyone buys new models, codexs, and rinse repeat every 4-5 years) other armies (they only update the other codex's is because they'll lose a large chunk of other sales attributed to GW hobby if they didn't. it's not as fun as fighting two space facist factions as it is with a whole horde of Xenos to add spice to their gaming "universe")

if they actually promoted their miniatures in a way that new players didn't automatically see a Ultramarine (or BA/DA/BT/SW/insert another generic yet named chapter here). why not see an ork a space toad or a sister of battle? it'd push sales up much higher. (on the ones that exist-including those barely yes i am looking at you sisters of battle). there is many varied reasoning WHY they are GW's favorite but bottom line is because they actually promote them but in a "round-a-bout" way.

because as we ALL know GW's stance (do i really have to parrot Kirby?) "we do not promote or advertise outside of our own production/publication" that is the context if not the words Kirby used in his speech (on avdertising)

where do i have it backwards? i'd like to know

 Orkimedes1000 wrote:
Quote: are IG advertised as the "be all end all" no it's generally Ultramarines. every boxed set beside chapter specific sets feature Ultramarines on the front. it has been this way since 2nd edition, possibly earlier. other than that

You are just trolling and dont know what you are talking about.

2nd edition box set 40k has Blood Angels on the cover

2nd edition Dark Millenium box set for 40k has Dark Angels on cover

3rd edition box set 40k has Black Templars on the cover

1st Edition did not have a box set but Crimson Fists not Ultra Marines are on the cover

1st Edition Book of the Astronomican, the first RT supplement had Space Wolves on the cover

1st edition WH40k vehicle manual has Dark Angels on cover

Epic Armies of the Imperium box set has Dark Angels on the cover

Epic 40k box set had Blood Angels on the cover

Space Marine Strike Force of 15 Tactical Marines had Dark Angels on the cover (metal plastic hybrids by J. Goodwin)

What about the iconic "Imperial Space Marine" Box set rtbo1, the set that put thousands and thousands of space marines in the hands of gamers and can still be found easy on ebay 25 years later, why those arent ultramarines, they are the Crimson Fists.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I would add one. Heroes of the Space Marines, I'd call it. It would be a book of nothing but independent commanders like the ones in the Space Marine codex, in order to represent a few dozen more of the hundreds of Space Marine chapters.

The Badab War FW books had a lot of commanders that did a number of things like FOC changes, army wide buffs, unit buffs, and so on. Something like that, for all armies (Eldar, GK, Tau, SM) would be awesome!

I would strongly agree with one unified book for all SM chapters. Chaos and Guard both have one, why not SM. Each chapter would have a list of all units (and quantities) they could take of each unit or vehicle. Unique units simply have a list of additional rules they add to a template. Would actually make things much easier, as all the special rules for all units in a particular army could be put in one section rather than having to flip through 40 pages of fluff+special rules. The fluff for each army could be printed as a section in WD (hey, that magazine would actually have a purpose then!) every month that goes through another chapter. If GW wanted to add another chapter in, they could add another special rules template you lay over the generic SM template and could be added in any WD.

Alternatively, you could have SM: the codex that all marine players would need, which would be small and just contain the basic units. Then the unique codex for each army is very small and only includes the special rules template you add over the generic marine template. Also would contain all the fluff for that army. Want to add a new army? Add a new codex supplement that lays a new special rules template. Want to create your own? much easier now. Hell you could even do make-a-chapter rules where they could cost special rules who you could then customize and name.

Also, GK could be broken out and run as Inquisition+mechanicus as an army. THAT would be an interesting army to play. The GK take too much priority out of the demonhunters codex. The codex was more inquisition than marines. Now its 90% marines, 10% inquisition.

Back when I started 40k in RT days.
There were 4 sample chapters that had the same rules, just different paint jobs.

The dark blue ones, the Ultramarines.
The red ones , the Blood Angels.
The green ones, the Salamanders
The light blue ones , the Space Wolves.

Originaly the SM were the small elite army that were , PART of the spectrum of the forces in the 40k universe.
And everything was , fantasy in Space.
Space Orcs , Space Elves, Space Dwarves,Space Marines, And Chaos Space Marines.
In fact the only army without 'Space' in the title was the Imperial Guard!

However, Fantasy Races in Space were pretty generic.And Human Fighters of the Future were also pretty generic.

Only the Space marines were considered 'different ' enough to be the face of '40k' .

From this point on they ALWAYS got the first promotion/development.

The Elite Space Marines were the cheapest army to collects.(Space Orks and IG needed far higher numbers of minatures.)

So SMs ARE GW plc favorite army because they are the 'ICONIC ' army of 40k.
They are the most popular as they were/(are?) the cheapest army to collect.

Back in the day they had mini-codexes that were like $8. If they went back to that make all the dang Space Marine codices they want. Make a hundred of them!

One non-minidex core Space Marine codex, and then the 5₤ minidexes themselves are sort of supplements that let you play variations?

How am i trolling? and what do i have wrong? because your grasping at non existant straws


Automatically Appended Next Post:
i was speaking purely from a Historical POV. that is part of the debate here is it not? for how could one come up with any logical reason if they don't include historical RL happpenings? (events). sadly if i didn't read so much 40k lore you could claimi was trolling however when not reading forums, i am sculpting, and reading OOP 40k rulebooks, codices, BL publication's etc. if GW writes it i'll read it

 Orkimedes1000 wrote:
How am i trolling? and what do i have wrong? because your grasping at non existant straws


Automatically Appended Next Post:
i was speaking purely from a Historical POV. that is part of the debate here is it not? for how could one come up with any logical reason if they don't include historical RL happpenings? (events). sadly if i didn't read so much 40k lore you could claimi was trolling however when not reading forums, i am sculpting, and reading OOP 40k rulebooks, codices, BL publication's etc. if GW writes it i'll read it

No, really, you were wrong and he pointed out why. Considering you appearently read so much 40k lore you should be aware of the fact that Ultramarines haven't always been on everything everywhere.

JWhex wrote:

 Orkimedes1000 wrote:
Quote: are IG advertised as the "be all end all" no it's generally Ultramarines. every boxed set beside chapter specific sets feature Ultramarines on the front. it has been this way since 2nd edition, possibly earlier. other than that

You are just trolling and dont know what you are talking about. where?

2nd edition box set 40k has Blood Angels on the cover. one example and i wasn't meaning on starter sets, i was meaning on boxed merchandise ie read as boxed sets of tac squads terminators and the like.

2nd edition Dark Millenium box set for 40k has Dark Angels on cover. again an isolated case. they change the cover of rulebooks or boxed starter game so people can identify which edition if the latest with only a glance required.

3rd edition box set 40k has Black Templars on the cover. see above.

1st Edition did not have a box set but Crimson Fists not Ultra Marines are on the cover. see above.

1st Edition Book of the Astronomican, the first RT supplement had Space Wolves on the cover because they were new shiny around that time.

1st edition WH40k vehicle manual has Dark Angels on cover. rule books are not boxed sets are they?

Epic Armies of the Imperium box set has Dark Angels on the cover. different game system. do try to stay on topic. 40k is what this thread (i presume is for) not epic 40k.

Epic 40k box set had Blood Angels on the cover. see above for epic.

Space Marine Strike Force of 15 Tactical Marines had Dark Angels on the cover (metal plastic hybrids by J. Goodwin). again they were a splash release. they weren't entrenched into the mindsets of "lets put Ultramarines on the front cover of our space marine merchandise".

What about the iconic "Imperial Space Marine" Box set rtbo1, the set that put thousands and thousands of space marines in the hands of gamers and can still be found easy on ebay 25 years later, why those arent ultramarines, they are the Crimson Fists.

they were beginning to create more legions around that time IIRC.

so all in all where am i trolling and what am i missing? because idk if i missed anything

and you "ignored my comment and added your reasoning. yeah i noticed dude. not cool. but i forgive you". (now something like that can be misconstrued as trolling, but adding logical and easily backed up evidence, someone is a troll who knows nothing of which they talk of )


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly where is the point in keeping this debate going? since i personally know nothing, and you all assume to know everything. well this is my last input for this thread.

and regardless the idea of rolling the codex's was envisioned by me (in this thread it has become immortalised). before i added "i don't understand the need for" everyone was But my codex. My Codex. and ignoring others and their reasoning (there are 6 or 7 pages confirming this fact)

Could a MOD please lock this. as it appears to wildly gone off topic

 Orkimedes1000 wrote:

JWhex wrote:

 Orkimedes1000 wrote:
Quote: are IG advertised as the "be all end all" no it's generally Ultramarines. every boxed set beside chapter specific sets feature Ultramarines on the front. it has been this way since 2nd edition, possibly earlier. other than that

You are just trolling and dont know what you are talking about. where?

2nd edition box set 40k has Blood Angels on the cover. one example and i wasn't meaning on starter sets, i was meaning on boxed merchandise ie read as boxed sets of tac squads terminators and the like.

2nd edition Dark Millenium box set for 40k has Dark Angels on cover. again an isolated case. they change the cover of rulebooks or boxed starter game so people can identify which edition if the latest with only a glance required.

3rd edition box set 40k has Black Templars on the cover. see above.

1st Edition did not have a box set but Crimson Fists not Ultra Marines are on the cover. see above.

1st Edition Book of the Astronomican, the first RT supplement had Space Wolves on the cover because they were new shiny around that time.

1st edition WH40k vehicle manual has Dark Angels on cover. rule books are not boxed sets are they?

Epic Armies of the Imperium box set has Dark Angels on the cover. different game system. do try to stay on topic. 40k is what this thread (i presume is for) not epic 40k.

Epic 40k box set had Blood Angels on the cover. see above for epic.

Space Marine Strike Force of 15 Tactical Marines had Dark Angels on the cover (metal plastic hybrids by J. Goodwin). again they were a splash release. they weren't entrenched into the mindsets of "lets put Ultramarines on the front cover of our space marine merchandise".

What about the iconic "Imperial Space Marine" Box set rtbo1, the set that put thousands and thousands of space marines in the hands of gamers and can still be found easy on ebay 25 years later, why those arent ultramarines, they are the Crimson Fists.

they were beginning to create more legions around that time IIRC.

so all in all where am i trolling and what am i missing? because idk if i missed anything

and you "ignored my comment and added your reasoning. yeah i noticed dude. not cool. but i forgive you". (now something like that can be misconstrued as trolling, but adding logical and easily backed up evidence, someone is a troll who knows nothing of which they talk of )


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly where is the point in keeping this debate going? since i personally know nothing, and you all assume to know everything. well this is my last input for this thread.

and regardless the idea of rolling the codex's was envisioned by me (in this thread it has become immortalised). before i added "i don't understand the need for" everyone was But my codex. My Codex. and ignoring others and their reasoning (there are 6 or 7 pages confirming this fact)

Could a MOD please lock this. as it appears to wildly gone off topic

Orkimedes you need to learn how the quotation system works. In your post above you have added to what I wrote then portrayed the combination of my statements and your add ons as something that I wrote.

Also, quoting you is difficult because you write a lot of run on sentences with no regard to punctuation. As an earlier poster commented, you made an egregious error about ultramarines being on all the box sets and I simply corrected your error.

Your comments which you confusingly added to my examples also show that you dont know what your talking about. For example, you said that the "Strike Force" box was a "splash release". It was not a splash release it was around for a very long time and GW didnt even do splash releases at that time.

In regard to my example of the RTB01 Imperial Space Marine box you said "they were beginning to create more legions around that time IIRC." No, that was the first space marine plastic box that came out in the RT era. You just could not be more wrong.

The covers of the books are valid counterpoints to your statement about ultramarines being everywhere "it has been this way since 2nd edition, possibly earlier" because there were no box sets at the initial release.

You said that Space Wolves were the new shiny around the time the first "Book of the Astronomican" came out. That is simply not true, the miniatures being released at that time were at the very beginning of the Rogue Trader era and the various Space Wolves miniatures would not be released for quite some time later. Fenris is not even their homeworld in that book. I doubt you have even seen this book because if you had, you would notice it is full of advertisements for space marine models but none are space wolves.

I think that the space marine book should let you unlock special rules for which army you choose to use ie salamanders Imperial fists etc, kinda like the fourth ed book or in recent codexes the chaos cults in the chaos book.

 DiRTWaL wrote:
I think that the space marine book should let you unlock special rules for which army you choose to use ie salamanders Imperial fists etc, kinda like the fourth ed book or in recent codexes the chaos cults in the chaos book.

The 4th ed book was a broken disaster of OP shinanigans... (everyone an their mothers ran the exact same pair of advantages and the supposed disadvantages were laughable in the extreme.)
And forcing a giant omni-tome and then supporting it by mini-dexes for sepecific Chapters means you're unfairly over-charging a single group of players.

Like it or not, the fairest way of doing things is the current way GW is going.
Note that BA's & SW's were both 2 editions old themselves before they got their shiny new 5th ed codices, so it's not like GW really does give preferential treatment to the 'special snowflake' Chapters. (Yes there was the WD BA update, but it was honestly even worse than their old & tired 3rd ed codex!)
Likewise, DA's got a 4th edition faildex, and have waiting until 6th to get a proper book again, while Templars are still stuck in 4th edition!

So for all the rampent hate & endless bing going on, keep in mind that the only books that tend to get updates per edition ever since 3rd have been;
- Space Marines (3rd, 4th, 5th)
- Orks (3rd, 4.5, +2 additional model waves across 5th)
- Tyranids (3rd, 4th, 5th)
- IG (3rd, 4th, 5th)
***CSM's (3rd, 3.5, 4th)

So two Xenos books and two IoM books. Looks pretty fair to me...
(***CSM's actually got even more love back in the day since they had 2 books released within the span of a single edition! Sure the 4th ed codex was an abomination and they skipped 5th, but they still get more love than the other 'Big 4' non-codex marine chapters do)

Sure it sucks waiting 7-10 years for your book to get a re-do, but it's honestly not just a "Xenos only" problem. All those special marines get to wait just as long as the majority of us do.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Like it or not, the fairest way of doing things is the current way GW is going.

I guess if you paint your guys in generic colours and glue goat heads on them so you can switch codexes for whatever style you want to play that day. It's hardly fair that one set of genetically-enhanced power-armour-wearing soldiers get a bunch of advantages at a lower price than another set of identical models without the advantages.

I'm not saying the trait system they used in the 4th ed book was good, because you're right, only a handful of traits ever got used and the disadvantages were largely irrelevant, but there are better ways to do that.

In game design, there are two primary tools that can be used to create balance and differences. One is cost, and the other is availability. Of these two, cost is the superior method for creating balance, and availability is the superior method for creating differences.

In going to a single-codex model, they could control for cost across the board, and retain the ability to restrict certain unit types to 0-1 (for rare) or 0 (for not available at all, such as thunderwolves for non-spacewolves). This is what the new CSM codex does. Costs are unified across the board. If you want an advantage, such as an extra close-combat weapon, or a god's Mark, you pay points for that advantage. Then other items (icons, for example) are given a restricted availability based on what, if any, mark the unit has.

Compare that with the hodgepodge of different Marine codexes. Your generic Grey Hunter costs fewer points than your generic Tactical Marine, yet comes with +1 attack (because god forbid the Ultramarines figure out that bringing a combat knife with them into battle might be a good idea), and acute senses, and counter-attack. Of course, all the SW players, getting defensive, will rush to say how their guys can't take a heavy weapon or a Sgt. Well, that's the question of availability, not cost. Grey Hunters are underpriced for what they DO have access to. The lack of a heavy weapon is only relevant if you planned to have one in the first place, and plenty of Tac marine players would rather have the second special too. Like the trait system in 4th, disadvantages are only relevant if they actually impact the game. The lack of the Sgt is, likewise, a bit misleading, as they can be obtained if they're wanted (and the ability to not have a sgt in a 5-man backfield unit can be considered an advantage if you're trying to save points).

GWs continual balance problems stem from trying to create differences through cost, resulting in armies that are underpriced compared to their functional equivalents from other codexes. I've heard some put forth the argument that this is good, that having a unit cost more in another book just means you shouldn't use that book if you want to use that unit. But that's flawed logic. If, for example, Space Wolves really shouldn't use TH/SS terminators, then they shouldn't be an option for them, they shouldn't be there as a horribly overpriced possibility. Because the goal is to have a balanced game, and if I get a unit of tac marines in a rhino AND 10 TH/SS guys to the Space Wolf's 10 TH/SS guys, that's not a fair fight. (See, it's not always SW's who get the cheaper stuff).

 Melissia wrote:
One non-minidex core Space Marine codex, and then the 5₤ minidexes themselves are sort of supplements that let you play variations?

Yes, I can't be bothered with all the new SM codices because literally 80% of the pages are exactly the same. I think back in the day they felt bad about making us rebuy the same pages over and over. Well they got over that.

Personally, I dislike this topic just because of the fact that there seems to be a huge trend that the answer is to "cut, cut, cut!" rather than "expand, expand, expand!".

My own opinion on the matter is as follows:
Keep the same number of books. Expand them to not simply be "Codex: <Insert Chapter Name Here>", but rather be representative of certain themes and use multiple Founding Legions within the book as a kind of "Iconic Legion" while giving ways for players to use those themes for their own custom armies. In addition the books should contain some "divergent" army lists within tied to each Chapter/archetype. Make it very clear that certain characters with certain rules(i.e. Belial) should not be seen as simply just "Belial, Master of the Deathwing" but rather as a kind of archetype that players should be willing to expand upon for "counts as" work.


To give some ideas as to how I would do it, if I somehow got tapped by Games Workshop to do this:
Codex: Astartes.
Ultramarines and Imperial Fists within as the "iconic Legions" with lists within for the Crimson Fists(emphasis on veteran units and close range fire drills) and a "Tyrannic War Veterans" list for the Ultramarines.

Codex: Shadows of the Imperium
Dark Angels and Raven Guard as the "iconic Legions", with elaborations within for the Deathwing and Ravenwing. Create a new and unique formation for the Raven Guard allowing for "Veteran Scouts" to be fielded. Think of Scout Squads with more advanced weapons (Stalker Bolters in lieu of standard bolters, as an example) and with some unique veterany skills.

Codex: Sons of the Wild
White Scars and Space Wolves! Not much more to say than that. This book would have things like packs of wild animals which can accompany your Captains/Lords, more "barbarous" weapon options, etc.

Codex: Fury of the Imperium
Blood Angels as the iconic Legion...and the Black Templars.
This book is a little bit different though, as there is a non-Legion Chapter within as an "iconic" Chapter. But to be completely honest the two are kind of opposite sides of the same coin. The Blood Angels (and their Successors) are trying to control their pent-up aggression and fury while the Black Templars seek to use those same emotions to fuel their crusades.
In this book, you have rules for the Death Company and other uniquely Blood Angels things in addition to the Black Templars having their mixed Neophyte/Tactical Marine squads. Have a uniquely Black Templar command squad option with "Crusader Armor" allowing for the models to force a reroll on psyker tests. Have some uniquely Black Templar "Relic" blades which are essentially able to deal extra damage versus psyker models.

Codex: Scions of Mars
Salamanders and Iron Hands! Tons of arcane weapons and equipment. Cybernetics, master crafted gear galore! Terminator/Artificer armor on Veteran Sergeants!
Craziness all over the place! Servitors attached to Devastator Squads! Legio Cybernetica War Droids!
All the fun you could want in one place.

And of course, given this kind of treatment for the Loyalists?
The Traitors and Renegades need some love too.
But that's for another day...

Only if we also see 4 Books for every other Army that comes to the table. 4 Books for CSM, 4 Books for Daemons, 4 Books for Eldar, 4 Books for Tyranid, 4 Books for the Tau...

...which we all know is never, ever going to happen.

 Psienesis wrote:
Only if we also see 4 Books for every other Army that comes to the table. 4 Books for CSM, 4 Books for Daemons, 4 Books for Eldar, 4 Books for Tyranid, 4 Books for the Tau...

...which we all know is never, ever going to happen.

If you'd read, you would have seen that I explicitly mentioned the Renegades/Traitors.

Doing "4 books for Daemons" is silly, simply because there's not enough room for it. No matter how you want to spin it you cannot make full armies out of each God, unless you go for ridiculous amounts of special characters/"unique" units that go against the theme of the army.

Eldar could be done--but the books would be tiny.

Four books for Tyranids and Tau is you trolling, and I'd kindly ask you to take it elsewhere.

JWhex wrote:

 Orkimedes1000 wrote:

JWhex wrote:

 Orkimedes1000 wrote:
Quote: are IG advertised as the "be all end all" no it's generally Ultramarines. every boxed set beside chapter specific sets feature Ultramarines on the front. it has been this way since 2nd edition, possibly earlier. other than that

You are just trolling and dont know what you are talking about. where?

2nd edition box set 40k has Blood Angels on the cover. one example and i wasn't meaning on starter sets, i was meaning on boxed merchandise ie read as boxed sets of tac squads terminators and the like.

2nd edition Dark Millenium box set for 40k has Dark Angels on cover. again an isolated case. they change the cover of rulebooks or boxed starter game so people can identify which edition if the latest with only a glance required.

3rd edition box set 40k has Black Templars on the cover. see above.

1st Edition did not have a box set but Crimson Fists not Ultra Marines are on the cover. see above.

1st Edition Book of the Astronomican, the first RT supplement had Space Wolves on the cover because they were new shiny around that time.

1st edition WH40k vehicle manual has Dark Angels on cover. rule books are not boxed sets are they?

Epic Armies of the Imperium box set has Dark Angels on the cover. different game system. do try to stay on topic. 40k is what this thread (i presume is for) not epic 40k.

Epic 40k box set had Blood Angels on the cover. see above for epic.

Space Marine Strike Force of 15 Tactical Marines had Dark Angels on the cover (metal plastic hybrids by J. Goodwin). again they were a splash release. they weren't entrenched into the mindsets of "lets put Ultramarines on the front cover of our space marine merchandise".

What about the iconic "Imperial Space Marine" Box set rtbo1, the set that put thousands and thousands of space marines in the hands of gamers and can still be found easy on ebay 25 years later, why those arent ultramarines, they are the Crimson Fists.

they were beginning to create more legions around that time IIRC.

so all in all where am i trolling and what am i missing? because idk if i missed anything

and you "ignored my comment and added your reasoning. yeah i noticed dude. not cool. but i forgive you". (now something like that can be misconstrued as trolling, but adding logical and easily backed up evidence, someone is a troll who knows nothing of which they talk of )


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Honestly where is the point in keeping this debate going? since i personally know nothing, and you all assume to know everything. well this is my last input for this thread.

and regardless the idea of rolling the codex's was envisioned by me (in this thread it has become immortalised). before i added "i don't understand the need for" everyone was But my codex. My Codex. and ignoring others and their reasoning (there are 6 or 7 pages confirming this fact)

Could a MOD please lock this. as it appears to wildly gone off topic

Orkimedes you need to learn how the quotation system works. In your post above you have added to what I wrote then portrayed the combination of my statements and your add ons as something that I wrote.

Also, quoting you is difficult because you write a lot of run on sentences with no regard to punctuation. As an earlier poster commented, you made an egregious error about ultramarines being on all the box sets and I simply corrected your error.

Your comments which you confusingly added to my examples also show that you dont know what your talking about. For example, you said that the "Strike Force" box was a "splash release". It was not a splash release it was around for a very long time and GW didnt even do splash releases at that time.

In regard to my example of the RTB01 Imperial Space Marine box you said "they were beginning to create more legions around that time IIRC." No, that was the first space marine plastic box that came out in the RT era. You just could not be more wrong.

The covers of the books are valid counterpoints to your statement about ultramarines being everywhere "it has been this way since 2nd edition, possibly earlier" because there were no box sets at the initial release.

You said that Space Wolves were the new shiny around the time the first "Book of the Astronomican" came out. That is simply not true, the miniatures being released at that time were at the very beginning of the Rogue Trader era and the various Space Wolves miniatures would not be released for quite some time later. Fenris is not even their homeworld in that book. I doubt you have even seen this book because if you had, you would notice it is full of advertisements for space marine models but none are space wolves.

what i mean't is the fact around that time end of the 80's they were beginning to flesh out the different chapters, some of which were based of the colour schemes of the then games devs in the GW studio. you can deny that all you want. but the reality is that before there were all these plastic kits they had very few kits (in regards to chapter specific kits....derp), also where are the chapter add ons of say dark angels or blood angels in Rogue Trader? that is right they were generic, unless you painted in a different colour.

" "Strike Force" box was a "splash release". It was not a splash release it was around for a very long time and GW didnt even do splash releases at that time."
it was when it was released as an army deal, different term same meaning.

covers of the books are valid counterpoints to your statement about ultramarines being everywhere - on boxed sets. if i was talking about books i'd have said so. a book is not a miniature nor is a miniature a book.

anything else you want to pick at?

"No, that was the first space marine plastic box that came out in the RT era. You just could not be more wrong".

not actual miniatures, i was talking about background fluff for said chapters (the five main ones and the what 18 or so other ones????) there are some details i always leave out just in this scenario. however i do not need to prove my knowledge in this department.

JWhex wrote:

 Orkimedes1000 wrote:

JWhex wrote:

 Orkimedes1000 wrote:
Quote: are IG advertised as the "be all end all" no it's generally Ultramarines. every boxed set beside chapter specific sets feature Ultramarines on the front. it has been this way since 2nd edition, possibly earlier. other than that

You are just trolling and dont know what you are talking about. where?

2nd edition box set 40k has Blood Angels on the cover. one example and i wasn't meaning on starter sets, i was meaning on boxed merchandise ie read as boxed sets of tac squads terminators and the like.

2nd edition Dark Millenium box set for 40k has Dark Angels on cover. again an isolated case. they change the cover of rulebooks or boxed starter game so people can identify which edition if the latest with only a glance required.

3rd edition box set 40k has Black Templars on the cover. see above.

1st Edition did not have a box set but Crimson Fists not Ultra Marines are on the cover. see above.

1st Edition Book of the Astronomican, the first RT supplement had Space Wolves on the cover because they were new shiny around that time.

1st edition WH40k vehicle manual has Dark Angels on cover. rule books are not boxed sets are they?

Epic Armies of the Imperium box set has Dark Angels on the cover. different game system. do try to stay on topic. 40k is what this thread (i presume is for) not epic 40k.

Epic 40k box set had Blood Angels on the cover. see above for epic.

Space Marine Strike Force of 15 Tactical Marines had Dark Angels on the cover (metal plastic hybrids by J. Goodwin). again they were a splash release. they weren't entrenched into the mindsets of "lets put Ultramarines on the front cover of our space marine merchandise".

What about the iconic "Imperial Space Marine" Box set rtbo1, the set that put thousands and thousands of space marines in the hands of gamers and can still be found easy on ebay 25 years later, why those arent ultramarines, they are the Crimson Fists.

they were beginning to create more legions around that time IIRC.

so all in all where am i trolling and what am i missing? because idk if i missed anything

and you "ignored my comment and added your reasoning. yeah i noticed dude. not cool. but i forgive you". (now something like that can be misconstrued as trolling, but adding logical and easily backed up evidence, someone is a troll who knows nothing of which they talk of )


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly where is the point in keeping this debate going? since i personally know nothing, and you all assume to know everything. well this is my last input for this thread.

and regardless the idea of rolling the codex's was envisioned by me (in this thread it has become immortalised). before i added "i don't understand the need for" everyone was But my codex. My Codex. and ignoring others and their reasoning (there are 6 or 7 pages confirming this fact)

Could a MOD please lock this. as it appears to wildly gone off topic

Orkimedes you need to learn how the quotation system works. In your post above you have added to what I wrote then portrayed the combination of my statements and your add ons as something that I wrote.

Also, quoting you is difficult because you write a lot of run on sentences with no regard to punctuation. As an earlier poster commented, you made an egregious error about ultramarines being on all the box sets and I simply corrected your error.

Your comments which you confusingly added to my examples also show that you dont know what your talking about. For example, you said that the "Strike Force" box was a "splash release". It was not a splash release it was around for a very long time and GW didnt even do splash releases at that time.

In regard to my example of the RTB01 Imperial Space Marine box you said "they were beginning to create more legions around that time IIRC." No, that was the first space marine plastic box that came out in the RT era. You just could not be more wrong.

The covers of the books are valid counterpoints to your statement about ultramarines being everywhere "it has been this way since 2nd edition, possibly earlier" because there were no box sets at the initial release.

You said that Space Wolves were the new shiny around the time the first "Book of the Astronomican" came out. That is simply not true, the miniatures being released at that time were at the very beginning of the Rogue Trader era and the various Space Wolves miniatures would not be released for quite some time later. Fenris is not even their homeworld in that book. I doubt you have even seen this book because if you had, you would notice it is full of advertisements for space marine models but none are space wolves.

The covers of the books are valid counterpoints to your statement about ultramarines being everywhere "it has been this way since 2nd edition, possibly earlier" because there were no box sets at the initial release. i cannot argue this point however nor can you with the amount of ultramarines on every generic codex space marines (with some minor exceptions), on every generic space marine unit not associated with a non-codex ie meaning a specific named main chapters, - it would be if i was talking about books which clearly i wasn't.

Space Wolves were the new shiny around the time the first "Book of the Astronomican" came out- it matters very little. you are going to extreme lengths to discredit me, when you didn't understand either the reasoning or the question i raised. if you had asked what i mean't and asked me to go into detail you might have saved both of us time and effort. if it had of been blood angels or space wolves on the front center of every vanilla boxed set then you'd have an arguement, but you have taken what i said and mixed the meaning and context. regardless if minor details are wrong you have taken what i have said and presumed i know nothing about it. anything else needed clarifying just simply ask. don't beat around the bush. (as you have mentioned i phrase things differently, it is known as rulebook speak)


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by giving vague descriptions and mixing the meaning means you are correct. if you understood that
1. in the beginning there were no chapter specific kits
2. SW kits in RT (did not know that)
3. the chapters which were being created were based of colour schemes in the studio at that time
4. the extraordinary amount of "ultramarines on the front of codex space marines and on the box art of generic space marines"


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What about the iconic "Imperial Space Marine" Box set rtbo1, the set that put thousands and thousands of space marines in the hands of gamers and can still be found easy on ebay 25 years later, why those arent ultramarines, they are the Crimson Fists. IIRC applies to this part of your text......because they were beginning to fluff the chapters background, and in doing so created colour schemes and chapter icons, and names for said chapters. if it didn't happen @ time of RT when did it happen? around the time the studio were into D&D and making miniatures with Marauderer miniatures? before citadel was even created as a product? i cannot forsee it happening before that because Steve Jackson And Ian Livingstone weren't on board. (not quite sure if they joined before or after Jervis Johnson and co or around the same time)


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JWhex wrote:
[ In regard to my example of the RTB01 Imperial Space Marine box you said "they were beginning to create more legions around that time IIRC." No, that was the first space marine plastic box that came out in the RT era. You just could not be more wrong. .

am i wrong? did i say that before RTB01 there were kits being produced? please point me to where i said that?
once you read and fully understand the previous comments you'll understand you have it wrong. why because you didn't get my meaning within the context of the debate at hand. you presumed i was talking about something entirely different. that is cool. communication breakdown is the biggest killers of new friendships. but i am not knocking you nor insulting you in any way nor am i "mad" just explaining where you went wrong. since you mentioned where i went wrong. i accept the fact and now i hope to move on with the debate or not debate at all.

I'd add more. I'd do a book for every original Legion.

 Kanluwen wrote:

This book is a little bit different though, as there is a non-Legion Chapter within as an "iconic" Chapter.

Black Templars and Crimson Fists are just as much a part of the Imperial Fists Legion as the Imperial Fists Chapter. All three Chapters were formed at the same time from the entity that was previously the Imperial Fists Legion. There are no "first founding Chapters" per se, so I've never understood why the "first founding Chapters" are always seen as better or more worthy of a Codex when the real dividing line should be between Second and Third Founding, as that's when the Chapters started taking on histories of their own. Every single Second Founding Chapter had the same history as the other Chapters with the same gene-seed upon formation; Third and later founding Chapters did not.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Doing "4 books for Daemons" is silly, simply because there's not enough room for it. No matter how you want to spin it you cannot make full armies out of each God, unless you go for ridiculous amounts of special characters/"unique" units that go against the theme of the army.

You could have said the exact same thing for all the various marine armies, but GW still found a way to make several entire books full of different-for-the-sake-of-being-different rules for DA/BT/SW/BA. An entire Codex: Daemons of Khorne is no worse than having an entire Codex: Dark Angels.

 PunkNeverDie110 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I like my DA, but roll em all back, SW aint even unique enough to matter for that.

I really hope you're bein' sarcastic or something, 'cause the SW are the MOST divergent of the Chapters, along with the BT, from the Codex Astartes. SW have pack structure, their scouts are ELITE 'cause they are Grey Hunters who preferes to stand alone, Blood Claws are the "meatshield", and they are "promoted" from BC to GH etc etc etc by non-standard ways.
And more, a lot more.

Yes, and?

CSM of Khorne are vastly different from those of CSM of Tzeentch.

Space wolves don't even come close to the differences of CSM, and guess which one is the Single dex? Space wolves could be shoved right in.

You could have said the exact same thing for all the various marine armies, but GW still found a way to make several entire books full of different-for-the-sake-of-being-different rules for DA/BT/SW/BA. An entire Codex: Daemons of Khorne is no worse than having an entire Codex: Dark Angels.

Actually it'd be better, because then you could mix in Khorne CSM as well and call it the BOOK OF BLOOD. And it'd be FAR more divergent than any space marine chapter there is right now. And yet CSM is pretty much one book and "Perfect" by those who have their own codex for their special divergent chapter.

The answer is on the very first page: two codexes. One for vanilla marines and a slightly smaller, supplimentary "variations" book.

No need to bin off any fluff/model ranges, just two, simple, easy-to-update codexes. One for core, one for special. Done.

The answer is. . . . .

The number of codexes for marines depends on how GW plans to market its, by far, most popular models.

Suggestions to roll the SW or BA into the regular marine codex are extremely naive because of the model GW uses to successfully sell marines. As long as these lines sell lots of models they will continue to have their own codex until forever.

JWhex wrote:
The answer is. . . . .

The number of codexes for marines depends on how GW plans to market its, by far, most popular models.

Suggestions to roll the SW or BA into the regular marine codex are extremely naive because of the model GW uses to successfully sell marines. As long as these lines sell lots of models they will continue to have their own codex until forever.

I think there's a slight circular trap in effect, though. Marines got more attention and so became the biggest seller, which then got them more attention which in turn led to more sales... and around and around it goes. I think that if the other forces got more attention, and more frequent updates, then their sales would improve. SM will sell no matter what at this point. So the only outcome would be a better, more balanced and enriched hobby for all players and collectors in the long run. However, I feel that GW focus more on the here and now of their profit margins, and if all they see is SM = £££ then the vicious cycle will continue.