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GW could rewrite every codex and release them all within a certain time frame just to bring each and every one up to standard. This would help with the amount of codex books. It would also mean the Space Marine books could be done in a way that there was space between releases for other forces to be sorted.

After that they could rather easily make new units and models and release them over the years to update said books. Which would give marine, xenos etc players time to get their stuff and build, paint etc. It would also mean that no army was negelcted for 10+years because GW wanted to make more Space Marines

If GW actually used white dwarf as a "hobby magazine" the rules for these new units etc could be thrown in that.

Other companies manage such things but other companies are smart.

Obviously none of this will happen cos we all know GW is only about the money and while they are getting money, they have no reason to care what its fans who are left anyway want!

Motograter wrote:
GW could rewrite every codex and release them all within a certain time frame just to bring each and every one up to standard. This would help with the amount of codex books. It would also mean the Space Marine books could be done in a way that there was space between releases for other forces to be sorted.

Pretty sure that's what they're doing right now

Changing gears:

BT & BA need to be rolled into the SM codex. They just do. It would be good for everyone involved.

For BA (after 8 pages of fluff on them)
If you include a "build your own chapter" matrix and give the ability to make Assault marine troops, all you need is some special characters (4 pages of then) and you're there. Give predators big flamers and assault cannons in the codex, and add a new CC dreadnaught arm and BA are done well enough. The rest of it can be covered with a couple simple options to existing units (let Tacticals take an Apothecary, let Honour Guard take a Jet Pack, etc).

For BT (give them 8 paged of fluff too)
Let a DIY option mix Scouts with Tacticals, give up 4 special characters, and the rest is covered with a "Crusade Seal" option unlocked by a character, or an "Oath" option unlocked by another. Make adamantium mantle a unique special equipment and you're done.

 Seaward wrote:
Nah. That massively simplifies the variant codices.

One could argue that the only reason those codecies need to be complicated to begin with is to validate their own existence.

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

 Seaward wrote:
Nah. That massively simplifies the variant codices.

One could argue that the only reason those codecies need to be complicated to begin with is to validate their own existence.

Skriker

This. A thousand times this... as if, besides SW the variants are even significant. I know they won't be bundled (except BT) but they should

 MajorStoffer wrote:
What is possible, I think, is an Inquisiton Codex. People like the inquisition, and customizable ordos warbands with the various ordos militant, all producible with current model ranges, but with room for expansion would seem a decent business and gameplay move. Especially after all the WAAC spending on GKs in 5th tapered off, they might view it as a way to increase the sales of the GK line, and yet another marine variation they can sell; Deathwatch.

Sadly you would be wrong. They already tried this focus on the Inquistion with customizable ordos warbands with the various ordos militant and it FAILED. I think they were some of the best books for 40k in a long time, but I would be in the minority as the Witchhunter's codex especially did very poorly. Didn't help that the only new SoB minis were the sisters repentia... I still think the Grey Knights in the daemon hunters book were the best incarnation of them to date. Too overpriced in the past and too uber killy against everything now and even more uber killy against daemons just ruined them for me.

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:
One could argue that the only reason those codecies need to be complicated to begin with is to validate their own existence.

Skriker

One could, yes. There's a saying about spilled milk that comes to mind, however, and collapsing them back into one codex now would essentially retcon several editions' worth of established fluff, units, and rules.

Guys, it's pretty simple. If you want variant non-Space Marine codices, you need to buy the gak out of non-Space Marine models. And convince everyone you know to do the same. And convince most of the people who talk about 40K on the internet to also do the same.

 Seaward wrote:

 Skriker wrote:
One could argue that the only reason those codecies need to be complicated to begin with is to validate their own existence.

Skriker

One could, yes. There's a saying about spilled milk that comes to mind, however, and collapsing them back into one codex now would essentially retcon several editions' worth of established fluff, units, and rules.

Rules perhaps, but that happens all the time anyway. No reason the fluff needs to be retconned however.

Guys, it's pretty simple. If you want variant non-Space Marine codices, you need to buy the gak out of non-Space Marine models. And convince everyone you know to do the same. And convince most of the people who talk about 40K on the internet to also do the same.

It's a chicken and egg problem. Other armies don't sell as well because they get less support, they go forever without updates, they have lots of (or are entirely) expensive and awkward to acquire metal models/finecast models and direct order parts (Eldar, Sisters of Battle), or require a much larger investment than SM armies (IG and Orks will typically cost 50-200% more than a similar point SM army), etc.

If you're just getting into the game, for most people the most rational choice in terms of price and competitiveness is an SM army of some sort typically. When that's the case, of course other armies aren't going to do as well, and that in turn created a self-reinforcing cycle.

 Seaward wrote:

 Skriker wrote:
One could argue that the only reason those codecies need to be complicated to begin with is to validate their own existence.

Skriker

One could, yes. There's a saying about spilled milk that comes to mind, however, and collapsing them back into one codex now would essentially retcon several editions' worth of established fluff, units, and rules.

Guys, it's pretty simple. If you want variant non-Space Marine codices, you need to buy the gak out of non-Space Marine models. And convince everyone you know to do the same. And convince most of the people who talk about 40K on the internet to also do the same.

They ripped a ton of stuff from chaos and a number of codex's come 4th edition.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Seaward wrote:

 Skriker wrote:
One could argue that the only reason those codecies need to be complicated to begin with is to validate their own existence.

Skriker

One could, yes. There's a saying about spilled milk that comes to mind, however, and collapsing them back into one codex now would essentially retcon several editions' worth of established fluff, units, and rules.

Guys, it's pretty simple. If you want variant non-Space Marine codices, you need to buy the gak out of non-Space Marine models. And convince everyone you know to do the same. And convince most of the people who talk about 40K on the internet to also do the same.

They ripped a ton of stuff from chaos and a number of codex's come 4th edition.

Yes, they did. People are still complaining (and rightfully so). How is it a good idea to do that again?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Seaward wrote:

 Skriker wrote:
One could argue that the only reason those codecies need to be complicated to begin with is to validate their own existence.

Skriker

One could, yes. There's a saying about spilled milk that comes to mind, however, and collapsing them back into one codex now would essentially retcon several editions' worth of established fluff, units, and rules.

Guys, it's pretty simple. If you want variant non-Space Marine codices, you need to buy the gak out of non-Space Marine models. And convince everyone you know to do the same. And convince most of the people who talk about 40K on the internet to also do the same.

They ripped a ton of stuff from chaos and a number of codex's come 4th edition.

Yes, they did. People are still complaining (and rightfully so). How is it a good idea to do that again?

I dunno, but everytime I bring up the 3.5 chaos codex everyone seems to agree they should have lost all their options, had chaos daemons ripped from them, and a number of things torn down to be very weak in effectiveness. So apparently people are also saying it was very good idea as well.

They should cut all but Codex: Space Marines.
The differences are negligible enough that they can fit them into one book (except Chaos SMs of course) and stop cluttering up the release schedule.
If they did this, people would stop holding out for their respective Codex before purchasing miniatures. Codex and Miniature sales would not change (If people really want to play SMs, then they will.) and they'd save time and money on not printing so many iterations of what is essentially the same army.
We may even see a lot of the sales become better distributed among the other armies. (Heaven forbid!)

 Archonate wrote:
They should cut all but Codex: Space Marines.
The differences are negligible enough that they can fit them into one book (except Chaos SMs of course) and stop cluttering up the release schedule.
If they did this, people would stop holding out for their respective Codex before purchasing miniatures. Codex and Miniature sales would not change (If people really want to play SMs, then they will.) and they'd save time and money on not printing so many iterations of what is essentially the same army.
We may even see a lot of the sales become better distributed among the other armies. (Heaven forbid!)

They'd save time and money on not updating their biggest cash cow as often? Wut?

And I don't think anyone minds non-SM getting sales, what people mind is that they don't want their armies gutted so that someone else can have it better.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Seaward wrote:

 Skriker wrote:
One could argue that the only reason those codecies need to be complicated to begin with is to validate their own existence.

Skriker

One could, yes. There's a saying about spilled milk that comes to mind, however, and collapsing them back into one codex now would essentially retcon several editions' worth of established fluff, units, and rules.

Guys, it's pretty simple. If you want variant non-Space Marine codices, you need to buy the gak out of non-Space Marine models. And convince everyone you know to do the same. And convince most of the people who talk about 40K on the internet to also do the same.

They ripped a ton of stuff from chaos and a number of codex's come 4th edition.

Yes, they did. People are still complaining (and rightfully so). How is it a good idea to do that again?

I dunno, but everytime I bring up the 3.5 chaos codex everyone seems to agree they should have lost all their options, had chaos daemons ripped from them, and a number of things torn down to be very weak in effectiveness. So apparently people are also saying it was very good idea as well.

Or rather, people hate how silly OP the 3.5 codex was and what a convoluted mess the rules were.

Chaos Marines are in a better state right now with their 6th ed book in terms of building Legion lists. The only things that are still 'impossible' to field are the Noise Termies/Preds/Dreads.
Everything else at least has a decent 'counts as' option open to it.

 Skriker wrote:

 Seaward wrote:
Nah. That massively simplifies the variant codices.

One could argue that the only reason those codecies need to be complicated to begin with is to validate their own existence.

And that argument is completely valid and correct.

 Melissia wrote:

 Skriker wrote:

 Seaward wrote:
Nah. That massively simplifies the variant codices.

One could argue that the only reason those codecies need to be complicated to begin with is to validate their own existence.

And that argument is completely valid and correct.

To the people making the decision, the codexes are validated by how many models they sell not the level of their complexity.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Seaward wrote:

 Skriker wrote:
One could argue that the only reason those codecies need to be complicated to begin with is to validate their own existence.

Skriker

One could, yes. There's a saying about spilled milk that comes to mind, however, and collapsing them back into one codex now would essentially retcon several editions' worth of established fluff, units, and rules.

Guys, it's pretty simple. If you want variant non-Space Marine codices, you need to buy the gak out of non-Space Marine models. And convince everyone you know to do the same. And convince most of the people who talk about 40K on the internet to also do the same.

They ripped a ton of stuff from chaos and a number of codex's come 4th edition.

Yes, they did. People are still complaining (and rightfully so). How is it a good idea to do that again?

I dunno, but everytime I bring up the 3.5 chaos codex everyone seems to agree they should have lost all their options, had chaos daemons ripped from them, and a number of things torn down to be very weak in effectiveness. So apparently people are also saying it was very good idea as well.

Or rather, people hate how silly OP the 3.5 codex was and what a convoluted mess the rules were.

Chaos Marines are in a better state right now with their 6th ed book in terms of building Legion lists. The only things that are still 'impossible' to field are the Noise Termies/Preds/Dreads.
Everything else at least has a decent 'counts as' option open to it.

The only cult terminator that matches closely enough is Khorne terminators. All they really miss is WS5 (of course khorne bezerkers are crap for their cost, but still)

The rest have no counts as option, nothing flavorful outside of cult troops. No poisoned flamers for nurgle troops, no sonic weapons for slaaneshi.

As for the rest of the Individual legions outside the gods..

Iron legion is the closest to having a full counts as army, with the Warpsmith, new daemon engines, full armaments, and some other things.

The rest..Yeah, not even close.

What a load of gash you chaps are talking. I don't know why people bring up 'but fluff!' as an argument. The background is changeable to fit any purpose, the background exists solely to provide context for stories and games. That context can be changed as required to suit new editions of the games, or new stories (e.g. the HH books).

Moving onto the main point that I want to make, it is fairly clear that Space Marines are the USP of the 40k setting, the thing that defines it in a way that "things are a bit dark" doesn't - Guardsmen and Eldar are good, but there is a reason that they don't make the front covers. Everyone who plays 40k either likes marines, or likes to posture against them (e.g. Xenos players painting anti-marine slogans on their units). Space Marines, effectively, are 40k. You may not like it, but it is foolishness to argue otherwise: try counting how many people you know who own some variant of 3+ armour.

The reason that this matters is that Space Marines are the baseline of the game. In Fantasy, a basic human is the baseline - the game assumes WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 and so on. In 40k, a Space Marine, with his 4s across the board and his 3+ save, is the baseline. Note how weapons tend to be priced according to that statline: we all think that lasguns are crap, due to their weakness versus it; we all think that Plasma Guns are great, due to their strength versus it. Thus, to ask 'why must there be so many Space Marine codices' is to misunderstand the point of that baseline: it serves as the statline that can most easily be used, and slightly altered, to be the building block of an army. The reason that we have Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels, instead of Xenoi or Guardsmen equivalents - Hrud, Exodites for Space Wolves, whatever - is because the game is built around that statline. When people think, "I want an army that runs around and stabs stuff in a bestial fashion", they look to the Space Wolf codex and find that it fits into the game's baseline, with some slight changes. Thus the baseline has been used to build several other armies, which people have duly bought as being minor variants which fit a certain playstyle. No doubt they could have been built with another baseline - but not in 40k, because here the expected and rules-centred statline is that of a Space Marine.

So the reason that there are so many Space Marine codices is that the game is built around having them. If this game had been built around Imperial Guard, then perhaps you might see more IG-style factions. Much like in Fantasy, the human baseline leads to the 3 Elven factions, BoC, WoC, Empire, Bretonnia - all falling reasonably close to that baseline, to varying degrees. But to then say, "Well we should change the baseline" is to further compound misunderstanding: because you have forgotten that Warhammer 40k, the game that started with Space Marines on the front cover, that was inspired by books about Space Marine style figures (Judge Dredd, Starship Troopers, etc), and whose peripheral industry has identified Space Marines as the most important element to focus on (e.g. THQ's games, Black Library books) is about Space Marines. People like them. People want to play them. They further want to play them in a variety of different army styles. To argue otherwise is to misunderstand the actual facts of this game and the desires of its player base.

JWhex wrote:
To the people making the decision, the codexes are validated by how many models they sell not the level of their complexity.

I don't particularly care about that, or about the inevitable chicken-egg argument.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

The only cult terminator that matches closely enough is Khorne terminators. All they really miss is WS5 (of course khorne bezerkers are crap for their cost, but still)

The rest have no counts as option, nothing flavorful outside of cult troops. No poisoned flamers for nurgle troops, no sonic weapons for slaaneshi.

As for the rest of the Individual legions outside the gods..

Iron legion is the closest to having a full counts as army, with the Warpsmith, new daemon engines, full armaments, and some other things.

The rest..Yeah, not even close.

I can agree that's highly fustrating that CSM players still can't really use their converted Noise Termies.
But the other cults? Nurgle never had anything like poisoned flamers so, they've lost no options there, while Rubric Termies lost the +1W wound but gained weapon options and +1 invuln.

Word Bearers have their cult Daemons back through Daemon allies, plus they gained the Dark Apostle and masses of cultist fodder.

Night Lords can be ably done by maxing out Fast Attack like Bikers, Raptors and/or Talons, while there's two named HQ options who can 'count as' in order to ensure the D3 Infiltrate.
The only things they're currently still without are army-wide Night Vision and Stealth. (which btw, would be broken as feth on an entire MEQ army!)

Alpha Legion now has cultists, plus IG allies for representing local forces who've sided with them while again, those two HQ options can easily 'count as' and give them some Infiltrators.
Or else just stick with the main CSM Warlord table as it's decent at representing the various secretive missions the Alpha Legion will set for themselves.


Not seeing the problem outside of the Sonic Weapons for dedicated Legion fans... The options are there if you look for them.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

The only cult terminator that matches closely enough is Khorne terminators. All they really miss is WS5 (of course khorne bezerkers are crap for their cost, but still)

The rest have no counts as option, nothing flavorful outside of cult troops. No poisoned flamers for nurgle troops, no sonic weapons for slaaneshi.

As for the rest of the Individual legions outside the gods..

Iron legion is the closest to having a full counts as army, with the Warpsmith, new daemon engines, full armaments, and some other things.

The rest..Yeah, not even close.

I can agree that's highly fustrating that CSM players still can't really use their converted Noise Termies.
But the other cults? Nurgle never had anything like poisoned flamers so, they've lost no options there, while Rubric Termies lost the +1W wound but gained weapon options and +1 invuln.

Word Bearers have their cult Daemons back through Daemon allies, plus they gained the Dark Apostle and masses of cultist fodder.

Night Lords can be ably done by maxing out Fast Attack like Bikers, Raptors and/or Talons, while there's two named HQ options who can 'count as' in order to ensure the D3 Infiltrate.
The only things they're currently still without are army-wide Night Vision and Stealth. (which btw, would be broken as feth on an entire MEQ army!)

Alpha Legion now has cultists, plus IG allies for representing local forces who've sided with them while again, those two HQ options can easily 'count as' and give them some Infiltrators.
Or else just stick with the main CSM Warlord table as it's decent at representing the various secretive missions the Alpha Legion will set for themselves.


Not seeing the problem outside of the Sonic Weapons for dedicated Legion fans... The options are there if you look for them.

Except it doesn't fit the "Feel" of the army, as one quoted from this thread, for those who prefer their special codex.

Of course what I was meaning was that they should've expanded the options out. (Also the Dark Apostle is pretty bad). Even when forgeworld got a crack at it they made far more flavorful versions of the legions even before their fall.