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juraigamer wrote: I believe page 8 of the rulebook for stats, when a stat is 0 and a test is required it auto fails.
ZERO-LEVEL CHARACTERISTICS
Somecreatures havebeen givena 0for certain characteristics,
which means that theyhave noability whatsoever in thatfield
(thesame isalso occasionally represented bya'-').
Amodel with Weapon Skill '0' isincapacitated; they are hit
automatically in close combat and cannot strike any blows. A
model withnoAttacks cannot strike anyblows in close combat.
A warrior with an Armour Save of'-' has no armour save at all.
If at any point,amodel'sStrength,ToughnessorWounds
are reduced to 0, it is removed from playasacasualty.
No mention of autofail for 0.
Characteristic Tests
Amodel will sometimes be called upon to take a characteristic
test. Such a test can be applied against any characteristic that
the model has, except for Leadership and Armour Save.
AUTOMATIC PASS AND FAIL
When taking a characteristic test, a dice roll of6 is always a
failure, and a dice roll of 1is always a success, regardless of
any other modifiers. However, if the model has a characteristic
of 0or'-' it automatically fails the test.
Note that that is from the Characteristic section which explicitly excludes LD.
Leadership right under that does not reference autofails.
Right after the BASIC rules for Ld and Characteristics, etc, it says this
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they
always override any contradicting basic rules. Forexample,
the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check
under certain situations.If, however,that model has a special
rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not
take such checks - the advanced rule takes precedence.
It even gives you a morale example for autopass.
So no, even with a Ld0, Fearless still autopasses pinning and morale.
Units containing one or more
models with the Fearless special rule
automatically pass Pinning, Fear and
Regroup tests and Morale checks, but
cannot Go to Ground and cannot choose
to fail a Morale check due to the Our
Weapons are Useless rule (see page 26).
This is spoken for truth, saves and leadership values are not considered characteristic auto fails.
THe reason Leadership tests are separate from characteristic tests is most likely due to the fact the Leadership tests are taken on 2D6 instead of 1D6.
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
Here's my thing and I may be wrong here but I want to make sure. I've been frequenting dakka for a couple years now. Its constantly stated that it has to be stated in the rules on wether you are allowed to do something. Fearless is an actual special rule. It states that you aute pass all morale and pining etc... This tau rule sounds like its stat based and not a special rule therefore fearless in my mind over rules it.
Example being if i have a 30 man boys squad and i loss combat beyond 7 then I am effectively at ld 0. mob rule/fearless says it doesn't matter I auto pass.
I would agree that on any unit that doesnt posses a special rule stating that it auto pass this tau auto fail would be valid even though supposedly snake eyes auto pass as well, but since fearless as a special rule states it auto pass then your auto fail is invalid.
I'm very relaxed when it comes to allowing most things but i would object to this particular rules parodox I guess you could say. At worst I'd call it a wash and mark it up as another clasic GW rules flub at best flip a quarter. Baring of course a TO ruling but that doesn't really matter in my case since I dont particepate in tournys.
On side not if GW you guys actually have people peeking in on fourms, please your rules write know to avoid terms like auto, never , always and I'm sure there are others. Since it cause these type conflicts, not even for tournaments even. It just cause fights in regular friendly games. Since you profess this is a beer and pretzels game I would think you would want to minimize fights were beer is invalved rather than incouraging confrontations that could lead to real assualts.
wowsmash wrote: Example being if i have a 30 man boys squad and i loss combat beyond 7 then I am effectively at ld 0. mob rule/fearless says it doesn't matter I auto pass.
Leadership 3, not 0. You would have to lose combat by at least 10 wounds to be at Ld 0.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/27 14:54:27
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
wowsmash wrote: Plus I thought there was no such thing as auto fail. I was under the impression that snake eyes always success?
Page 7, right before Leadership tests (Automatic Pass and Fail) says if a model has a 0 or - for a characteristic they automatically fail tests. This is why the Spore Mine has a Leadership of 1, even though they never go to ground, or fall back.
Except it also says that Leadership is explicitly not a characteristic test and then goes on to tell you how leadership tests work. Auto fail for 0 does not apply to leadership.
Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
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wowsmash wrote: Plus I thought there was no such thing as auto fail. I was under the impression that snake eyes always success?
Page 7, right before Leadership tests (Automatic Pass and Fail) says if a model has a 0 or - for a characteristic they automatically fail tests. This is why the Spore Mine has a Leadership of 1, even though they never go to ground, or fall back.
Except it also says that Leadership is explicitly not a characteristic test and then goes on to tell you how leadership tests work. Auto fail for 0 does not apply to leadership.
So Leadership is not a characteristic?
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
wowsmash wrote: Plus I thought there was no such thing as auto fail. I was under the impression that snake eyes always success?
Page 7, right before Leadership tests (Automatic Pass and Fail) says if a model has a 0 or - for a characteristic they automatically fail tests. This is why the Spore Mine has a Leadership of 1, even though they never go to ground, or fall back.
Except it also says that Leadership is explicitly not a characteristic test and then goes on to tell you how leadership tests work. Auto fail for 0 does not apply to leadership.
So Leadership is not a characteristic?
I covered this whole thing on page 1.
Characteristic Tests wrote: A model will sometimes be called upon to take a characteristic test. Such a test can be applied against any characteristic that the model has, except for Leadership and Armour Save.
It is a characteristic but you don't take characteristic tests against it; You take leadership tests.
There's a section on that page for characteristic tests which exempts Leadership and tells you what happens when you have a 0 value. Then there is a section for leadership checks. Then in the 'codex vs rulebook' section it even gives you an example of auto-passing morale due to a special rule overriding basic rules. Seriously, check out page 1. I quoted all of those passages.
edit: Here's the whole thing quoted in a spoiler block.
juraigamer wrote: I believe page 8 of the rulebook for stats, when a stat is 0 and a test is required it auto fails.
ZERO-LEVEL CHARACTERISTICS Somecreatures havebeen givena 0for certain characteristics, which means that theyhave noability whatsoever in thatfield (thesame isalso occasionally represented bya'-'). Amodel with Weapon Skill '0' isincapacitated; they are hit automatically in close combat and cannot strike any blows. A model withnoAttacks cannot strike anyblows in close combat. A warrior with an Armour Save of'-' has no armour save at all. If at any point,amodel'sStrength,ToughnessorWounds are reduced to 0, it is removed from playasacasualty.
No mention of autofail for 0.
Characteristic Tests Amodel will sometimes be called upon to take a characteristic test. Such a test can be applied against any characteristic that the model has, except for Leadership and Armour Save.
AUTOMATIC PASS AND FAIL When taking a characteristic test, a dice roll of6 is always a failure, and a dice roll of 1is always a success, regardless of any other modifiers. However, if the model has a characteristic of 0or'-' it automatically fails the test.
Note that that is from the Characteristic section which explicitly excludes LD.
Leadership right under that does not reference autofails.
Right after the BASIC rules for Ld and Characteristics, etc, it says this
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. Forexample, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations.If, however,that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks - the advanced rule takes precedence.
It even gives you a morale example for autopass.
So no, even with a Ld0, Fearless still autopasses pinning and morale.
Units containing one or more models with the Fearless special rule automatically pass Pinning, Fear and Regroup tests and Morale checks, but cannot Go to Ground and cannot choose to fail a Morale check due to the Our Weapons are Useless rule (see page 26).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/27 15:39:14
Looking for great deals on miniatures or have a large pile you are looking to sell off? Checkout Mindtaker Miniatures.
Live in the Pacific NW? Check out http://ordofanaticus.com
i stand by the fact that if you feel something is off. not right or otherwise weird, (or seriously game changing) it never hurts to check the codex and rule book. you can say you just want to educate yourself because you dont know and want to, so no need to be obnoxious... but alwyas double check these things. it prevents butthurt.
Off topic deleted by Mannahnin
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/29 05:18:19
