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miskatonicalum, I really appreciate your candid responses here. I would like to hear from Cyporiean, too, if possible... simply because as you say, she handles the business side of things, which is part of what we're talking about (the gaps in the rules, which is your primary area of responsibility as far as I understand it, is being addressed and I've seen that you're working very hard on that). I would be curious if Cyporiean sees an issue or not, since from what you posted above:

 miskatonicalum wrote:
As for a business counterpart...Cyporiean is very much the business person, she handles getting convention space, she runs the Facebook page and the Kickstarter, she talks to distributors, artists, sculptors, and production facilities. I write the books, both the game mechanics and the world building.

Rules is one thing, and will definitely help matters (a lot of my warmachine-playing friends felt the first edition rules were too loose, but as I said this has been discussed thoroughly and I've seen that you are working hard on addressing it!).

Community is another, but I think simply saying that folks haven't migrated over from Kickstarter or Facebook isn't the only factor. I PM'ed Casey's Law, Catyrpelius, Wehrkind, and Gymnogyps to point them to this thread when I first posted, to see if we could get a discussion going. As it is, many folks who were once quite invested in Brushfire have cooled on it, and rather than not say anything I thought it was worth trying to broach the subject!

But any discussion is going to need involvement from Cyporiean, too. Again I really appreciate your thorough responses above, but to have the "other half" of the equation we need her input / thoughts on where things stand, too.

Again, cheers for the responses!

I would like to point out that my Warden Information thread probably isn't the place to be having this discussion , but it's too late for that at the moment. I can edit the thread title to something like, "Building the OTL Community" or something along those lines so as we don't confuse people.

I'm reading the thread, and was discussing things with Matt while I was at my other job, and working on updating the InDesign Docs for Brushfire.

That is another one of the things that I handle for the company: InDesign. While Alf has done some work in it, I'm the only one with 'proper' experience in working with it. So any Rules or Fluff updates that need to get done are handled by me once Matt has written it up in a googledoc. That is mainly why updates take so long to get done.

As for the lack of new players issue, I agree completely with Tonio. I also feel that his and Whiteroo's painting threads are great benefits to the subsection, and I would love to see more of that. I really enjoy seeing our models painted by fans. It'd be great to see some paint slapped onto your Hamsters Ritides.

I also agree with Catyr that Alf's models need a wash.

 Tonio wrote:

 Casey's Law wrote:
You mention a lack of new players. Do you know why that is? Looking at that as business man alone I'd find it worrying and be trying to find out why. If you don't have any new customers and old customers are drifting then I'd suggest something needs to be fixed. There is a spanner somewhere in your works. Personally I'd be itching to take the machine apart and find the problem so I could repair it.

This is an outsider point of view, but I see the actual state of OTLG as quite normal. Their first game is in preparation for a second edition and the second one is not yet available to the public. It's a lull in new players creation, but understandable. I don't know a lot of players who jump on a game just before a change of edition. Most of them simply wait for the official release, to get finalized stuff. Endless is simply not available. Sure people could get the pdf, but not models. Once again, like with BF, it's a question of time more than interest.

I'm pretty sure that once Endless is released and BF2.0 is out, the influx of new players will get far better.

This I feel is a very good point and I missed it while typing up my response >_<. Endless from my experience of seeing it demo'd all during AdeptiCon was a very well received game and it was a sad sight for us that we had to turn people away because models were not available. With people getting their kickstarter rewards and with the models being released here soon, I feel that people will start playing the game and we will see an influx of new things.

And the rules thing is very much an important point to look at. When 6th edition 40k was rolling around there were countless posts telling people to wait because 6th ed was just around the corner. This is something I'm seeing first hand with Malifaux, no only are people waiting on the new edition of rules to drop, the henchmen are being told to actively tell people to hold off until 2nd edition hits. So I can see Tonio's point on having people waiting until the new rules drop before they play.

Thanks again for the reply Misk. I apologise for being so vague, as much as I want to help and see things improve I don't have the enthusiasm any more. In the past I was more inclined to think through other options and describe them in detail, I just don't feel I have the energy for that now. Not only that but the vagueness of the topic at hand means it's a lot of information to put down. If we were talking about a specific problem it'd be easier to explain how I think things could be improved or executed better. As it stands, Caty's post is the sort of thing really worth paying attention to. The same goes for communication options and ways to grow the community, it's a vast subject with many options and my enthusiasm is slightly lacking these days. Again, Caty makes good points to get the ball rolling.

The metaphor was just that, a metaphor, but still, while I agree that it's harder to take a business apart it's not impossible or particularly difficult. It is a sum of components and it is possible to isolate each and assess it. If there is a fault then you can root it out and fix it.

I truly hope you find your answers and can make improvements but at this stage my input wont be particularly detailed.

 Cyporiean wrote:
As for the lack of new players issue, I agree completely with Tonio. I also feel that his and Whiteroo's painting threads are great benefits to the subsection, and I would love to see more of that. I really enjoy seeing our models painted by fans. It'd be great to see some paint slapped onto your Hamsters Ritides.

Cyp, but unlike miskatonicalum I don't see you addressing anything in particular! While it is good to hear you are hard at work, my prodding the forum and hoping to start a discussion about what folks find lacking should not be turned around to a statement about folks starting their own threads to show their painting progress.

I'm trying to say, that the reason I don't think you're seeing that, is folks are discouraged. Therefore, the answer is not to say "Folks should paint models and blog about it, that will bring in more people". Instead, the answer (imo) is to discuss why folks might be discouraged and not wanting to make, and post, such progress.

Just to use a local example, myself, Wehrkind, and Gymnogyps were all quite hyped for Brushfire. That enthusiasm waned as I felt we were not treated very well, and now most of us have moved on to other projects.

Just trying to be candid and honest. I feel you're mentioning / addressing a symptom, rather than the problem. As Catyrpelius more eloquently describes, people LOVE to do stuff for games for free. People make blogs, paint, playtest, run demos, all on their own. But in the OP of this very thread, requirements were laid out on how to be a Warden... but the appreciation just isn't there. Actually, for months the rewards portion was left blank!

Personally, I don't really care about discounts, free stuff, or the like. I just want to feel like a company appreciates it's supporters rather than demanding more of them and pointing at them as the reason why things aren't as vibrant.

If I didn't make this post here and PM them, Casey's Law or Catyrpelius wouldn't have come in and posted. Consumate professionals that they are, Wehrkind and Gymnogyps (who I also PM'ed) still might not. But apathy is the problem. Wehrkind, I have had arguments with him in the parking lot for hours at our local store. Yet, even he ran out of energy to try to address some of the problems with OTL.

What I'm saying is: if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck. If your most rabid supporters (I dropped $1K in a single month on this game, am a huge Redwall fan, etc etc) are getting discouraged... the problem isn't that they should do more to bring in new players, the problem is what is causing them to get discouraged? With a company, the only real possibility there is community interaction.

It's not lack of releases- I have tons of the same sculpts because I wanted to support the company. It's not the rules- they can only get better, and they are . It's the interaction with the community, and for better or worse, a bit of an "us vs them" mentality that developed between the creators and the fans.

The fans, who aren't as invested, eventually give up and move on. That's what we've seen here, and I wanted to broach this subject because I want the best for OTL, and I want to stop the leeching of the game's popularity on these boards. Honestly, the only way that is going to happen is going to be better community interaction.

The pressure isn't on your fans to bring in new players and make the game succeed. The pressure is on the creators to make such an awesome gaming environment that the fans Enjoy it, and thus naturally want to bring in new players, paint their models, etc! I think at times the cart gets put before the horse here. If you've got 20 dedicated players worldwide, and a lot of collectors, you don't pressure those players to meet certain requirements and start demoing. You encourage them and take their feedback gladly, because they're playing your game! And then they naturally pass it on.

I hope the above is both candid and helpful. I really love the Brushfire world, and I really want you guys to succeed!

A large amount of that should be directed at me and not Cyporiean, the Warden program was my idea, my baby, and my poorly executed idea. I'm working on improving it and as Caty said, making it less of a job. I don't forsee me finishing this in a day, and I'd enjoy any and all PMs people have about this idea. I've spent the past 2 hours talking with Caty, Misk, and Cyp. If the culture problem is due to me, then so be it tell me and then help me fix it because I want to see OTL do better because like you I really love the Brushfire world and I really fething love EFT (or else I wouldn't have said, "I'll help in any way I can" a year ago ).


Edit: Looking back at the OP of this post, it was entirely my fault that the rewards section was not updated. I have it written out, but even with some of the things I've read today it's being worked on. As it stands right now, I'd personally love to see people demoing the OTL games because they want to get people playing, that way I personally know that there's a reason to push this program. I'd much rather say, "You demo Brushfire?! You know our Warden Program can help you out with that and give you access to x, y, and z." Rather than, "You should join the warden program and demo Brushfire you'll get x, y, and z!"

 RiTides wrote:

Cyp, but unlike miskatonicalum I don't see you addressing anything in particular! While it is good to hear you are hard at work, my prodding the forum and hoping to start a discussion about what folks find lacking should not be turned around to a statement about folks starting their own threads to show their painting progress.

I didn't feel the need to address anything in particular, as others had already addressed the points. I'm not sure what you are looking to get out of me?

I wasn't trying to turn things around, just trying to encourage more activity.. isn't that what we all want? I also genuinely want to see your army painted because its so huge and impressive.

I'm sorry that you felt your enthusiasm wasn't treated very well, but I'm not sure what we could have done to show more appreciation?

You bring up a lack of community interaction a few times, but I'm honestly not seeing us not being active in the community. What can we do to improve this? What would you like to see us do?

Cyp, I hope the part you quoted isn't all you got out of my post! I expanded on what I thought in the following parts, particularly the last section.

Just trying to give you guys some honest feedback here. What was an indie DCM obssession has become very stagnant. Wehrkind, Gymnogyps and I were all very committed to Brushfire and all have gone through withdrawal. I'm just posting here in the hopes that that can turn around.

Honestly, I'm not looking to get anything out of you, Cyp. I'm trying to help you. I really wish you could see that, and take it as such!

I invested a lot of money in this game, because it's a great idea. I want the best for it. You're going to have to answer your own questions for the last line of your post, I've given you my thoughts and Catyrpelius gave specific suggestions of ideas in his long, excellent post on the previous page.

But this is a great microcosm of the problem. I post here, and PM four other folks who were at one time extremely involved with Brushfire, to try to get a discussion going about the state of the community and why it is stagnant. And your rseponse is "What could we have done... What can we do... What would you like to see us do?" But the sense from the entirety of your post is you've already done everything, there's nothing additional needed!

The answers to those questions, if asked genuinely, are already laid out in the posts above! To reiterate, I'm not looking to get anything out of you. At all! I want to give to you, and your game world, instead. But the negative community interaction, as laid out by Catyrpelius, and anecdotally by myself and Casey's Law (and I know from conversations with Wehrkind and Gymnogyps, too) has stymied all of us.

Why not take it as constructive criticism, and instead of demanding that I spell out precisely what you should do... you take it on and figure out how you can interact with the community in a more positive way.

Again, the posts by miskatonicalum and Alfndrate here are greatly appreciated, but I think your response highlights the problem, Cyporiean, which is why I'm focusing on it. I don't want a band-aid fix... I already love your game and the world you've created. What I want is a shift in community interaction, and Cyporiean in my opinion this really must start with you.

Again, hope this is candid and the reason for it is clear! I recall your not being too happy with me at TempleCon, but the reason I am saying this now is that things have only gotten worse in the state of the community since then, so I'm hoping you also see that and will want to make a change in the way you interact with the community for the betterment of the game.

***Note: If your response is simply "What should I do, then?"... that is not going to warrant a reply. I'm really laying it on the line trying to tell you how things are, here. I've already told you what I think you should do... it's up to you, whether or not you want to do it!

As always, I am hoping for the best for you guys! And I hope that this is helpful to you.

edited to take to PMs

We've got a number of ideas floating around to add content to these forums. One of the things I'd like to get up and running soon is a blog, updated weekly, sharing a new topic each week, directly related to what we're working on at OTL.

Reworking the Warden Program, and a loyalty benefits are definitely ideas we'll fix going forward.

I hope everyone we'll understand though, that we're only two people. We really do appreciate everyone who posts here, and are thrilled that so many of you really like our games. I'm sorry if that doesn't seem to be coming through in how we're interacting with the community. I've never seen it as an "us versus them" situation.

We're always trying to think of new things to share with the community. We ran a series of Brushfire 'Newspapers' a while back. Myself and a few other authors wrote short stories that are available for free on our website. We post secret info here, like the different factions coming to Brushfire, before mentioning them anywhere else. Our time is stretched thin, and we're on here responding to nearly every post.

Some of those will also be seeing new content.

Again, miskatonicalum, I really appreciate the tone and content of your posts here. I think those are great ideas, but I just want to be clear that I'm not necessarily asking you guys to do "more". Just the tone that you're using here... well, that goes a Really long way! It's fantastic.

So, thank you! I think part of it is that folks just want to be appreciated, and feel connected, when investing heavily in and taking part in such a small game. Your posts here do that quite well!

However, I was really trying to also address what I felt could be the root problem, the underlying cause... which I believe is largely the widespread sense of 2 things. That the game creators:

1. Do not appreciate the supporters of their game (Very important, but just your tone here helps address that)

and

2. Do not take feedback well. (This, in my mind, still has to be addressed! And is, if anything, more important)

A small shift in those two attitudes would yield manifold results! For the second, Catyrpelius has made some great suggestions, and of course WhiteRoo continues to do so in the rules thread, which you are actively working on and it is very much appreciated. However, most posters gave up after being challenged on almost every piece of feedback given! Which is a combination of both problems 1 and 2, and can result in the stagnation and apathy that we are currently seeing in this subforum, and that I'm hoping this discussion will help address the cause of.

Cheers for the thoughtful replies, once again.

It may have come off as 'challenging their feedback', but that was definitely not my intent. I just want folks to understand why we're disagreeing with them, rather than simply saying 'no' or remaining silent and not providing feedback to their feedback. It helps me as a designer to write out my intent with a rule, and hopefully helps them to know that we're not just simply ignoring what they say.

I'll try to work better at showing that intent, but tone is easily lost over the internet. I hope that our responses did not permanently sour anyone on OTL.

I can make a small post on this as it reminds me of similar issues in the RH threads.

A company needs to be able to absorb any vector of interest and turn that into sales. ANY vector.

The issue with the RH thread to me is that the people standing in for the company only wanted the company to be perceived the way they saw it, and took offense to other value systems.

Just looking at this thread, and not being either a fan or hater of Brushfire (just not my flavor), I can see as a marketing professional that there is indeed an infelxibility towards how you want your game to be appreciated.

Ritides is telling you point blank what he wants, and what he thinks the problem is... it's nothing to do with rules, or painting blogs. He hasn't painted his stuff yet, but he bought a ton, and he was pretty rabid about the game. What does this tell us?

It tells us painting is not his priority. The fact he doesn't mind the rules, and was onboard from day 1 essentially tells us that population as-is and game as-is were not his priority.

So what is?

Just reading what he wrote, it seems loud and clear to me that community engagement, and feeling included and valued as a ground level supporter were the thing he got most out of it in the past. That is his value. Rooting for the underdog so to speak (new company) is something that makes him happy.

So, this is the way in which he invests in your company. He tells you straight-up in a pretty clear way, but the responses seem to be very much missing the point of where his value lies, and are instead focusing on 'the next step' in painting, rules, discounts or population growth. That's not what he wants. It seems he is indicating an appreciable if not statistiscally significant amount of your prime original supporters are feeling similarly.

The rule is this: Expecting clients to adapt to you is a wish. Adapting to your clients is a plan.

Now, maybe you care, maybe you don't. I think you do for the record, I think you just don't get what is being asked for and it is frustrating, understandably.

But I can tell you, if you want to take the next steps business wise, you have to learn to recognize and turn around whatever form of value investment your clients may be making. And it may not be what you expected. Be flexible, don't assume that people are seeing what you see when you look at it.

This is not altogether surprising, I can tell you it is a very common growing pain for a younger company. I would not take what I said or what Ritides said as an attack if it can be managed, though I know it is never easy to hear this kind of thing. However, I can promise you, the advice he offered, however indirectly to the business aspects in terms of return to you, may be something you in years to come look back on and say 'Holy crap, I am glad he cared enough about us to point that out, what a difference it has made!'

Been reading through this thread and have the following to offer the people that own Brushfire,

Hire MajorTom and RitTides to do marketing.

They seem to get it. Business perception is a huge part of running a business, especially a miniatures game.

is Brushfire meeting established sales goals? Is Brushfire on track and evolving like the owners have envisioned?

If the answer is "no" then RiTides, I'm afraid you've invested in a lot of models that will die a slow death and all you'll be left with is a story of that one miniature game that showed potential.

I work in an industry that relies on company perception and key indicators that show business success and failure. The ability to release a "bunch of models at GenCon" does not constitute success, at least in my mind.

To the Brushfire owners, IMHO, you are being presented an opportunity to do something as a business owner that most do not get. Feedback from your customer base. Don't squander this opportunity to be a successful. If you're not versed in business, find someone who is, cause from what I'm reading, what you're currently doing ain't working.

Just before I go to vacation, you guys blew up this thread. I can't read this for a week you know!

Just to be clear, I haven't yet signed up as a warden. I have trouble playing one simple match in a month.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As the one who got a lot of feedback about his feedback from OTL, I think they take my feedback right. After all I'm trying to turn the game to the way I would like to see it, and they shouldn't let me do that. Not every one of my awesome ideas are that awesome, but I have no way to tell that by myselt.

The last two weeks of silence was a little bit of a downer, sure. You guys should post a design plan once a week or something. Like the ones earlier about the asigaru and the rat rider.

Oof. There are some heavy things going on in here. Although I don't feel qualified to respond, and don't know if I'll be any help, I feel the need to put down some words about my experiences here and with OTL.

I feel like I am in a completely different position than many of you on this forum. I don't currently own any physical OTL product and in fact have never seen any of their figures in person (correction: I bought a jacques off a local guy, but still.) I discovered OLT through their EFT Kickstarter. EFT enticed and excited me. I love the concept and the logo art. I dove right in to the PDF when it was released and have played a handful of games over the last few months. I started my Dakka account to discuss EFT here. I've thought a number of times about dropping $100+ for some Brushfire boxed sets and more EFT figs, but I've keep holding off until I see some of the product in person. I have been out of regular wargaming for awhile and don't have any experience with the resin materials many companies are using now, for one concern.

I quickly realised that if I want to play EFT regularly I will have to drum up new players. Madison has a diverse gaming community and I think that if I put in enough time and effort I could build some sort of player base. I have been considering signing up for the Warden program after I play more games of EFT and get a chance to paint the figures. Pushing EFT and Brushfire for me is a chicken and the egg problem. None of the game stores in my area have access to OTL product through their current distributers, so getting them to go the extra mile to carry the product requires demonstrating that there is interest. Getting people interested in playing a game is hard when they can't just pick it up, on the spot, at their local gaming store. To complicate things further, neither EFT, nor Brushfire has a current physical ruleset that the store could sell. I'm of the mindset that I don't want to sell someone on 1st ed Brushfire if it will be officially outdated in six months. It also circles back to the fact that I'm waiting to see the EFT product from the kickstarter (and Brushfire starter) for myself before pushing the game on others.


I have never been in the situation to playertest a game like this let alone give/get feedback directly from the creators. It is an interesting experience. I would be one of those "blind" playtesters that has been mentioned. It's empowering seeing changes made from comments I posted even if most of them are just typos. Honestly I often feel out of place or awkward on these forums. I'm outnumbered by both oldguard Brushfire players, and company employees. I post about EFT and know that there will be no more than one or two responses, all from people at OTL. I go back and forth between feeling like I'm intruding on their game and feeling like they are tailoring their game just for me(and maybe feeling a little guilty about that). I mean to post more. I have thoughts and ideas on the EFT, but honestly I have been holding back on my posting, and trying to stay off the forums somewhat, because I I don't want to burn out my excitement for the game, or get discouraged because of lack of response to my posts. Some days I just want to throw out a "how bad is this two earth troll warband I came up with" or "how to skill/equip your Crusader for maximum pwnage" but I don't, knowing that the only response will most likely be Misk.

When I first saw Brushfire I was like "eh, cute, but napoleonic is not my thing." When they sent the BF2 rules out to EFT backers I gave it a look anyway because hey, free rules, and found it to be much more interesting than I expected. I was following the Brushfire rules disc. thread for awhile, and added some things early on, but I really didn't have any good opportunity to get games in and felt that I wasn't really able to comment on rules without some table experience. I would try a different minis rules set each month or two just for fun if I could, but my friends aren't as open to hopping systems as they once were. I noticed that the rules discussion became confrontational from time to time and tended to avoid the thread when this would happen. I know what its like to be ignored by a gaming company you support. I run weekly organized play events for D&D 4E and Wiizards of the Coast has dropped the ball in just about every possible way over the last 4 years. It can be hard to win with the public, and bad sentiment can be hard to shake.

I've started rambling more than a little bit so I'll stop here. Hopefully everything can get sorted out. I'm curious to see what the future holds.

I'm just hoping to find someone to endless with locally once my stuff comes in. Also i need to finally get to work on my board.