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 Minaith1989 wrote:
Hmm I had been hoping to put my old maiden guard models to use with this release but apparently that isnt going to happen

We will see if maiden guard wth spears will get rules.
If not, they are perfect for replacing the plastic spearmen.

On the topic of the shadow warriors cheeks, I am waiting until I see some good painters do them up, I have a feeling they only look bad because of the paintjob leaving the recesses a lot darker than they should be.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I think it definitely could have been done differently, but at the same time it has a kind of charm to it. It definitely strikes me as something fitting for a Lothern Sea Guard army. If I get one or two of them, I would likely try to figure out a way to make it look as though it is cresting the top of some pretty high waves.

That's going to be some serious water effects work, Kan.

Oh my god the prices. THE PRICESSSS!

 Dysartes wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I think it definitely could have been done differently, but at the same time it has a kind of charm to it. It definitely strikes me as something fitting for a Lothern Sea Guard army. If I get one or two of them, I would likely try to figure out a way to make it look as though it is cresting the top of some pretty high waves.

That's going to be some serious water effects work, Kan.

Frozen water, with the frost-phoenix.

And another one shooting out of flames, with the fire-phoenix!

That chariot is the most herp-a-derp thing GW has made since... *thinks* ... Tomb Blades. No, no... Tomb Blades are just a bad concept from start to finish, as is any Necron unit where Necrons are controlling big machines... no, something truly awful. Oh, wait, I know! The Land Speeder Escalade.

The chariot could have been much cooler. The core idea - of a load-carrying glider towed by another flier - is a sound one, used by both sides during World War 2. But it should have looked like a glider or fighting platform built with shipbuilding skills, instead of just aping a yacht with misplaced sails.

I think a skyboat would have been a much better option. Having the bird in the front makes it look really weird. The bolt thrower would have a harder time targeting units near or underneath it due to the bird getting in the way, and the spike on the prow wouldn't work at all unless the idea was to do some sort of aerial acrobatics maneuver to spike a land based monster.

A skyboat would be better as you'd have a unimpeded line of sight for the bolt thrower, and the prow spike could include an accompanying blade following the edge of the prow downwards.

Plus, who wouldn't want to ride around in an awesome skyboat?

GW have excelled themselves with the flying bird boat. I have no doubts its the best they can produce at this moment in time.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Minaith1989 wrote:
Hmm I had been hoping to put my old maiden guard models to use with this release but apparently that isnt going to happen

We will see if maiden guard wth spears will get rules.
If not, they are perfect for replacing the plastic spearmen.

I was assuming that the Maiden Guard is now a Hero / special upgrade Character? The WD article syas they were not keen on "just girls with spears/bow " hence Sisters of Avalon......

We were talking about the old Maiden Guard models ... to replace the boys with spears.
BTW the new Hand Maiden fits perfectly the look of the old Maiden Guard.

yeah I saw that - I was really respondiong to his question about if the old maiden guard will have rules

I used to use mine as Sea Guard - but then don't really play WFB anymore

Agree about the new Hand Maiden - very tempted to get one

Would have prefered the Skyboat to be bourne aloft by air elementals - which if they need to be modeled could be akin to the Etherial for the undead.....

 Dysartes wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I think it definitely could have been done differently, but at the same time it has a kind of charm to it. It definitely strikes me as something fitting for a Lothern Sea Guard army. If I get one or two of them, I would likely try to figure out a way to make it look as though it is cresting the top of some pretty high waves.

That's going to be some serious water effects work, Kan.

Or some foam cutting.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Minaith1989 wrote:
Hmm I had been hoping to put my old maiden guard models to use with this release but apparently that isnt going to happen, seeing as for some reason maiden guard now have a bow emphasis rather than a spear emphasis...cant help feel that the older guard models are nicer too...

Concepts evolve. Maybe they thought it would be nice to add a unique bow unit that doesn't rely on skirmishers, rather than yet another specialist melee unit in an army that has quite a few anyways?

IIRC, the old Maidenguard were not exactly "specialist melee". They were like an elite version of Lothern Sea Guard, armed with bows and spears. Which was neat in concept (though IIRC, given ridiculously OP rules) because in the world of Warhammer Fantasy there were few units who had adapted the ancient and innovative practice of carrying two weapons that were not both swords. It fit the HE theme of martial training, it fit the HE theme of loads of spears as the main infantry block, and it fit the HE theme of bows.

Now this new unit does use bows, but they're magic bows. And while magic is another HE theme, it's getting to the point that it feels like to high elves use magic as casually as you or I brush our teeth. And that's not cool.

YESSSSSS, book of hoeth got nerfed. This is all I was hoping for from the new codex. No more any double is irresistable force but doesnt miscast.

 Phragonist wrote:
YESSSSSS, book of hoeth got nerfed. This is all I was hoping for from the new codex. No more any double is irresistable force but doesnt miscast.

True, but now it can be combined with other items atleast.

 JOHIRA wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Minaith1989 wrote:
Hmm I had been hoping to put my old maiden guard models to use with this release but apparently that isnt going to happen, seeing as for some reason maiden guard now have a bow emphasis rather than a spear emphasis...cant help feel that the older guard models are nicer too...

Concepts evolve. Maybe they thought it would be nice to add a unique bow unit that doesn't rely on skirmishers, rather than yet another specialist melee unit in an army that has quite a few anyways?

IIRC, the old Maidenguard were not exactly "specialist melee". They were like an elite version of Lothern Sea Guard, armed with bows and spears. Which was neat in concept (though IIRC, given ridiculously OP rules) because in the world of Warhammer Fantasy there were few units who had adapted the ancient and innovative practice of carrying two weapons that were not both swords. It fit the HE theme of martial training, it fit the HE theme of loads of spears as the main infantry block, and it fit the HE theme of bows.

But did it fit the theme of Avelorn and the Everqueen?

I can get why people are irked that the Maiden Guard are not remaining the same as they were. But at the same time, I think going forward with a new concept and letting the Lothern Sea Guard retain a bit of their uniqueness is a good plan as well.

Now this new unit does use bows, but they're magic bows. And while magic is another HE theme, it's getting to the point that it feels like to high elves use magic as casually as you or I brush our teeth. And that's not cool.

Is it so bad though?

The High Elves aren't humans. Magic isn't rare among their numbers. Everyone has a measure of magic provided they choose to train with it.

Admittedly I'm putting a lot of my own perceptions/interpretations in here, but I think that this is a good way to make the High Elves a bit more unique and add a unit from the woodland heart of Ulthuan without stepping on the toes of the Wood Elves too much.

 Phragonist wrote:
YESSSSSS, book of hoeth got nerfed. This is all I was hoping for from the new codex. No more any double is irresistable force but doesnt miscast.

I thought we determing the "leaked" rules were fake?


There is no way the attribute for High Magic and that World Banner are legit. Daemons would just auto lose.

 Aerethan wrote:

 Phragonist wrote:
YESSSSSS, book of hoeth got nerfed. This is all I was hoping for from the new codex. No more any double is irresistable force but doesnt miscast.

I thought we determing the "leaked" rules were fake?


There is no way the attribute for High Magic and that World Banner are legit. Daemons would just auto lose.

I think the person who determined it to be fake has a personal vendetta against High elves,

However I guess we will find out in a few days.

 pities2004 wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:

 Phragonist wrote:
YESSSSSS, book of hoeth got nerfed. This is all I was hoping for from the new codex. No more any double is irresistable force but doesnt miscast.

I thought we determing the "leaked" rules were fake?


There is no way the attribute for High Magic and that World Banner are legit. Daemons would just auto lose.

I think the person who determined it to be fake has a personal vendetta against High elves,

However I guess we will find out in a few days.

I hope it's fake for a few reasons, namely that abysmal magic item selection. No one needed NEW items, we needed 1 item to be fixed and perhaps some fat trimmed.

And I think the proposed synergy with magic makes the army rely on it far too heavily. What happens when someone shuts down the HE magic phase? They'll die in droves.

Yeah and the magic item list seemed bigger than other Armies in 8th edition if I'm not mistaken?

 Aerethan wrote:

 Phragonist wrote:
YESSSSSS, book of hoeth got nerfed. This is all I was hoping for from the new codex. No more any double is irresistable force but doesnt miscast.

I thought we determing the "leaked" rules were fake?

Most likely. In another thread e.g. suddenly, World Banner was said to only grant Stubborn to Dragons, not every unit, which is much more believable. Still, the lore attribute downright screams "WISHLISTING!". And really, I do expect HE to screw Demons over...Mat Ward did the very same thing in WH40k and we all know he is a terrible, terrible writer both in regards to rules and fluff.

 Kanluwen wrote:

IIRC, the old Maidenguard were not exactly "specialist melee". They were like an elite version of Lothern Sea Guard, armed with bows and spears. Which was neat in concept (though IIRC, given ridiculously OP rules) because in the world of Warhammer Fantasy there were few units who had adapted the ancient and innovative practice of carrying two weapons that were not both swords. It fit the HE theme of martial training, it fit the HE theme of loads of spears as the main infantry block, and it fit the HE theme of bows.

But did it fit the theme of Avelorn and the Everqueen?

Yes. Because IIRC the Maiden Guard were not the Avelorn generic provincial unit- they were the elite, hand-picked women from around Ulthuan whose job was to protect the Everqueen at all cost. I don't think they could even be fielded without her. I know the minis at least came boxed together.

Now this new unit does use bows, but they're magic bows. And while magic is another HE theme, it's getting to the point that it feels like to high elves use magic as casually as you or I brush our teeth. And that's not cool.

Is it so bad though?

the shadow warrior captain is one hell of a mini

Random thought, what if Mat Ward hasn't written a single army book or codex, but instead it's similar to Alan Smithee and he just lost the draw on who's name would be put on books that GW knows are poorly balanced/written?

In other news, looking over the photos it appears I'll be adding the Everqueen and Handmaiden to the army and little else. I really want to like the Sisters of Avelorn, but the price point is just so high for 10 models. Maybe I'll reconsider after reading the rules for them, but I'd be surprised if it leaps out enough to say "oh what the hell"; never know, but I doubt it will happen..

 JOHIRA wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

IIRC, the old Maidenguard were not exactly "specialist melee". They were like an elite version of Lothern Sea Guard, armed with bows and spears. Which was neat in concept (though IIRC, given ridiculously OP rules) because in the world of Warhammer Fantasy there were few units who had adapted the ancient and innovative practice of carrying two weapons that were not both swords. It fit the HE theme of martial training, it fit the HE theme of loads of spears as the main infantry block, and it fit the HE theme of bows.

But did it fit the theme of Avelorn and the Everqueen?

Yes. Because IIRC the Maiden Guard were not the Avelorn generic provincial unit- they were the elite, hand-picked women from around Ulthuan whose job was to protect the Everqueen at all cost. I don't think they could even be fielded without her. I know the minis at least came boxed together.

The fluff I can find makes a very distinct reference to

"In Avelorn it is the dream of every young maiden to become a Maiden Guard, not only because of the honor, and the fact that they are in the good graces of the Everqueen herself, but often also because they are trained to the equal of an Elven knight in martial arts and skills with the sword and bow."

I can't vouch for that or its accuracy, as the two High Elf army books I have(the one which is about to be outdated and the one immediately preceding it) make no real mention of the Maiden Guard. But the way that reads suggests that yes, they are a uniquely Avelorn unit.

I'll admit I could have been a bit more specific as my posting made it seem like they should be the same thing as the Sea Guard(Lothern's provincial unit) rather than the White Lions or Dragon Princes(Chrace and Caledor's provincial units, respectively).

Now this new unit does use bows, but they're magic bows. And while magic is another HE theme, it's getting to the point that it feels like to high elves use magic as casually as you or I brush our teeth. And that's not cool.

Is it so bad though?

Yes, yes, it is. When magic is nothing more than a unit buff, it ceases to be special. Magic should be mysterious, frightening, unpredictable and wild. When everyone and their brother is covered in swirling aether flames, then it kills my interest in an army. Like I said before, the whole point of these historical fantasy games with blocks of infantry is because players on some level sympathize with "the little guy", the peons marching in formation. The more GW tosses around casual magic bits in lieu of producing an interesting unit that creates interesting tactical alternatives, the more they undermine that. I can sympathize with a guy who has to hold a bow. I can't sympathize with a guy whose bow is on magic fire. Such units should be extremely rare, not replacements for interesting units like the Maidenguard.

Again: What made the Maiden Guard so patently interesting?

The only thing that they had going for them, IMO, is that they had a direct tie to the Everqueen and the whole "Amazon warrior women" vibe.
They still retain that--but now they are a Rare unit(or at least that's how it looks, since the Shadow Warriors boxed set is in both the Rare and Special sections of the GW site...and I just cannot see Shadow Warriors being justifiable as Rare unless they have gotten massive buffs) with magical arrows and a magical bow alongside of what looks to be a character upgrade for the unit as well.

Admittedly I'm putting a lot of my own perceptions/interpretations in here, but I think that this is a good way to make the High Elves a bit more unique and add a unit from the woodland heart of Ulthuan without stepping on the toes of the Wood Elves too much.

High Elves are already quite different from Wood Elves. They don't need more differentiation.

I'm not saying that any given unit of Elves with magic bows is a bad idea. I'm saying that the unit we got is just through-and-through bad. Bad concept, bad execution, bad price. It takes something characterful and interesting and replaced it with something uncreative and uninspired.

High Elves in general are different to Wood Elves, yes.
Avelorn as a province is basically Athel Loren Lite.
That's oversimplifying it certainly, but it's the best descriptor I can come up with right now.

I guess this whole exchange boils down to "You like what you like, I like what I like--we can both enjoy our ideas and be friendlike though!". You have what you want to see with the Maiden Guard, and I can understand that. I'm liking the new direction a bit more than the old.

I do have to wonder though if maybe the Maiden Guard change is a sign of things to come for the Wood Elves? Trial the idea of "magical bows and arrows" in a Rare slot for the High Elves, add a Special(or even Core perhaps) unit for the Wood Elves if it gets well received?

Not being a Fantasy player I had little interest in the models, but after taking a proper look I think that they've *gasp* done well here. Apart form the whole Sky-Eagle-Chariot-Glider fiasco, some good products though. What baffles me however, is why on earth are the transfer sets limited edition? Have they suddenly produced Citadel Finepaper that promises much better decal quality than before, but because it's so expensive to manufacture *wink*, that they have only made so many copies?

The original text for the Maiden Guard reads:

"If your army includes Alarielle the Everqueen, it can include a single regiment of her Handmaidens as well............

The Handmaidens of the Everqueen are not mere courtiers and attendants, but a warrior guard whose duty is to serve and protect their mistress................

The Handmaidens are warriors of rare power even amongst the High Elves, being skilled with all manner of weapons. Their weapons of choice are the bow and spear, and they wear corslets of the fonest ithilmar."

I don't mind the Sisters and the sole Maidenguard is a really nice mini - I would have liked Regiments of both with a SC as well

The more I look at that sky chariot, the more I think GW messed up. It simply makes no sense, the way it is.

So if I were to get one (which is still very much up in the air, given the costs), I would use the hawk as a giant eagle. Then I would completely rescuplt the flying boat to something a bit more... not realistic... Functional? Keep the general elven flowing lines while putting a ram on the front. Make it clear this thing moves not by aerodynamic effect, but sheer magic power.

And in the doing save a lot of giant hawks from getting squashed by sky chariots slamming into them at the end of a charge.

 Vulcan wrote:
The more I look at that sky chariot, the more I think GW messed up. It simply makes no sense, the way it is.

So if I were to get one (which is still very much up in the air, given the costs), I would use the hawk as a giant eagle. Then I would completely rescuplt the flying boat to something a bit more... not realistic... Functional? Keep the general elven flowing lines while putting a ram on the front. Make it clear this thing moves not by aerodynamic effect, but sheer magic power.

And in the doing save a lot of giant hawks from getting squashed by sky chariots slamming into them at the end of a charge.

Magic doesn't make sense