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I've never used Land Speeder Typhoons before, and the same goes for bikes, let alone Black Knights.

I'm equipping my two Land Speeders with typhoon missile launchers and heavy bolters, but (from my understanding of heavy weapons) if they move they can only fire snap shots, or not at all in the case of missiles? or do they work in a similar way to Predators, in that you can move 12" and fire one weapon, 6" and fire both, or move 24" and get a cover save?

and how should I move my bikers? The plasma talons have only got an 18" range so how do I get them close enough to the enemy to fire the cannons/grenade launchers, but far enough away so that I can assault the phase after without having to rely on getting a double 6?

Like if I was playing the table length ways, so ive got 6ft to move, would it be good to move my land speeder up 12" and fire the missile launchers? but move the bikers flat out and have them get a cover save?

Any help is awesome sorry for coming across like a n00b aha

 stubacca wrote:
or do they work in a similar way to Predators, in that you can move 12" and fire one weapon, 6" and fire both, or move 24" and get a cover save?

Predators don't work this way at all, in fact I can't think of any vehicles that do. Go have another look at the right-hand side of page 71 in the rulebook, this covers how vehicles fire. Skimmer rules are on page 83, but you'll notice nothing there that changes how you fire, even for a Fast skimmer. Regarding missiles - remember that blast and template weapons aren't allowed to use Snap Shots.

and how should I move my bikers? The plasma talons have only got an 18" range so how do I get them close enough to the enemy to fire the cannons/grenade launchers, but far enough away so that I can assault the phase after without having to rely on getting a double 6?

Usually, you don't. You want to be about 17/18" away in a given Shooting phase, to fire the talons. This then leaves a few possibilities:
1) the enemy moves forward. Unless they're bikes or jump-packers, they're unlikely to be able to assault you as they'll need to roll high to reach you.
2) the enemy stays put. You can move up 12" in your next turn, fire again, and have only a few inches to travel to assault.
3) the enemy moves back. You can catch up easily enough to stay at 18" away, fire again, and repeat the process, or move elsewhere if you need to.

The biggest advantages Ravenwing have are their speed, and survivability. They get the latter not just from increased Toughness, but from Jink saves as well. They lose most of these advantages if they get bogged down in combat, and especially if they are charged themselves. So if you're going to assault, do so when you have the confidence that you can either kill or easily break the defender in a single turn of combat - or have a backup unit come in to lend a hand. Otherwise, keep your distance and whittle away at them using firepower. Don't be tempted to charge in just because you easily can.

Land Speeders will only get Jink's 4+ save if they move flat-out - meaning they won't fire at all. So each turn, you're ideally looking to either move them 6" so they can still fire at full effect, or forget about shooting altogether, take advantage of the extra speed and save and get themselves into a decent shooting position for the next turn.

I use two Land Speeder Typhoons all the time in my Codex Marine force. They can move up to 12" and still fire two weapons with full ballistic skill. That means they can move, gain their jink save, and still fire the Missiles and Heavy Bolter shots no problem.

Tactically I can suggest a few things.
-Always run them in a squadron of at least two. A single speeder is a joke and can be killed by almost anything. Having two insures that you won't give away an easy first-blood or kill point.
-Always move them. Even if you pick them up, say they flew in a circle, and land in the same spot. Always give yourself the 5+ jink.
-Keep them at range. Range is your second best defense. Be mindful of which enemy units are capable of shooting in the 36-48 inch range. I will often measure the nearest enemy threat to make sure they cannot move into range to shoot my speeders, using the 12" speeder movement to literally skim out of harms way.
-Don't let your Speeders be the only target. Giving your opponent something else to shoot at is the single best defense your Speeders have. I use two Vindicators and some Dreads along with some other things to keep the heat off my Speeders. The idea is to make your opponent loathe to waste valuable long ranged shots on Speeders instead of something scarier.

Basically, skim the Speeders around behind your lines to put their HB's and Missiles where they are needed. Use higher priority/more threatening units to take the attention away from the Speeders. And make full use of the mobility you are afforded with 12" of movement.

 Super Ready wrote:

 stubacca wrote:
or do they work in a similar way to Predators, in that you can move 12" and fire one weapon, 6" and fire both, or move 24" and get a cover save?

Predators don't work this way at all, in fact I can't think of any vehicles that do. Go have another look at the right-hand side of page 71 in the rulebook, this covers how vehicles fire. Skimmer rules are on page 83, but you'll notice nothing there that changes how you fire, even for a Fast skimmer. Regarding missiles - remember that blast and template weapons aren't allowed to use Snap Shots.

and how should I move my bikers? The plasma talons have only got an 18" range so how do I get them close enough to the enemy to fire the cannons/grenade launchers, but far enough away so that I can assault the phase after without having to rely on getting a double 6?

Usually, you don't. You want to be about 17/18" away in a given Shooting phase, to fire the talons. This then leaves a few possibilities:
1) the enemy moves forward. Unless they're bikes or jump-packers, they're unlikely to be able to assault you as they'll need to roll high to reach you.
2) the enemy stays put. You can move up 12" in your next turn, fire again, and have only a few inches to travel to assault.
3) the enemy moves back. You can catch up easily enough to stay at 18" away, fire again, and repeat the process, or move elsewhere if you need to.

The biggest advantages Ravenwing have are their speed, and survivability. They get the latter not just from increased Toughness, but from Jink saves as well. They lose most of these advantages if they get bogged down in combat, and especially if they are charged themselves. So if you're going to assault, do so when you have the confidence that you can either kill or easily break the defender in a single turn of combat - or have a backup unit come in to lend a hand. Otherwise, keep your distance and whittle away at them using firepower. Don't be tempted to charge in just because you easily can.

Land Speeders will only get Jink's 4+ save if they move flat-out - meaning they won't fire at all. So each turn, you're ideally looking to either move them 6" so they can still fire at full effect, or forget about shooting altogether, take advantage of the extra speed and save and get themselves into a decent shooting position for the next turn.

Ravenwing have hit and run across the board. Against any army with better shooting than CC you want to charge when you can and hit and run out of combat in the enemy assault phase. It entirely depends on how the enemy moves and how you move but take the advice on staying at 17.9" unless you can get the charge against moderately decent CC enemies (SM ish) as getting charged youself tends to hurt. Baiting 10"+ charges is absolutely fine though as the talons will reliably kill one model causing a failed charge and a good laugh for their troubles.

The typhoon tactics above are good and are in general how to hand skimmers if you even run eldar in the future.

 Super Ready wrote:

 stubacca wrote:
or do they work in a similar way to Predators, in that you can move 12" and fire one weapon, 6" and fire both, or move 24" and get a cover save?

Predators don't work this way at all, in fact I can't think of any vehicles that do. Go have another look at the right-hand side of page 71 in the rulebook, this covers how vehicles fire. Skimmer rules are on page 83, but you'll notice nothing there that changes how you fire, even for a Fast skimmer. Regarding missiles - remember that blast and template weapons aren't allowed to use Snap Shots.

and how should I move my bikers? The plasma talons have only got an 18" range so how do I get them close enough to the enemy to fire the cannons/grenade launchers, but far enough away so that I can assault the phase after without having to rely on getting a double 6?

Usually, you don't. You want to be about 17/18" away in a given Shooting phase, to fire the talons. This then leaves a few possibilities:
1) the enemy moves forward. Unless they're bikes or jump-packers, they're unlikely to be able to assault you as they'll need to roll high to reach you.
2) the enemy stays put. You can move up 12" in your next turn, fire again, and have only a few inches to travel to assault.
3) the enemy moves back. You can catch up easily enough to stay at 18" away, fire again, and repeat the process, or move elsewhere if you need to.

The biggest advantages Ravenwing have are their speed, and survivability. They get the latter not just from increased Toughness, but from Jink saves as well. They lose most of these advantages if they get bogged down in combat, and especially if they are charged themselves. So if you're going to assault, do so when you have the confidence that you can either kill or easily break the defender in a single turn of combat - or have a backup unit come in to lend a hand. Otherwise, keep your distance and whittle away at them using firepower. Don't be tempted to charge in just because you easily can.

Land Speeders will only get Jink's 4+ save if they move flat-out - meaning they won't fire at all. So each turn, you're ideally looking to either move them 6" so they can still fire at full effect, or forget about shooting altogether, take advantage of the extra speed and save and get themselves into a decent shooting position for the next turn.

Land Speeders are Fast Vehicles, which means they can move 12" and still fire two weapons.

 stubacca wrote:
I've never used Land Speeder Typhoons before, and the same goes for bikes, let alone Black Knights.

I'm equipping my two Land Speeders with typhoon missile launchers and heavy bolters, but (from my understanding of heavy weapons) if they move they can only fire snap shots, or not at all in the case of missiles? or do they work in a similar way to Predators, in that you can move 12" and fire one weapon, 6" and fire both, or move 24" and get a cover save?

and how should I move my bikers? The plasma talons have only got an 18" range so how do I get them close enough to the enemy to fire the cannons/grenade launchers, but far enough away so that I can assault the phase after without having to rely on getting a double 6?

Like if I was playing the table length ways, so ive got 6ft to move, would it be good to move my land speeder up 12" and fire the missile launchers? but move the bikers flat out and have them get a cover save?

Any help is awesome sorry for coming across like a n00b aha

LSTs are Fast Skimmers, so you can move 12" and shoot two weapons with no penalty. You get jink saves moving, 5+, 4+ moving flat out.

Land Speeders aren't very good this edition however, they don't score, can't contest, can't assault, and die to a stern look. They also take a valuable Fast Attack slot. The only time I would ever take them would be if I was maxed out on everything else in a FOC, and that doesn't happen often.

Black Knights, however are the deadliest unit in the RW list, and possibly the best unit in the game at the moment. They're like TWC in 5th, except they can get a 2+ cover save, ignore terrain, and have twin linked plasma guns. A single three man unit of Knights can kill a ten man tactical squad without breaking a sweat.

They are, however, a precision instrument and require finesse to use.

I'm glad to see you're already aware of the subtleties of using their range- it all depends on what you're facing, in general.

Black Knights are best used point blank to an enemy unit. They rapid fire their plasma + grenade launcher without fear of being out of range for CC, charge in with 4 Str 5 Rending attacks + 1 HoW autohit (don't forget this), fight again in the enemy turn (if the unit doesn't break. You want to stay in combat in their turn, so don't use the rending attacks on a weak, low ld unit.) and then hit and run for another round of shooting and charging. They do effective damage in every phase, and this makes them deadly. With meltabombs, they are a threat to every single unit in the game, be it FMCs or Land Raiders.

Against shooty armies you want to be in close combat range by turn two, but it mostly depends on who gets the first turn. If first, scout/move 24" and unleash everything on appropriate targets. If second, hide the bikes as much as possible to mitigate damage, and the turbo boost the entire army forward in your turn. A Darkshroud helps immensely for this, as you get a 2+ cover save.

Against shooty armies I used to run my Knights in the front line but this results in them taking lots of casualties, so I now run my Attack Squadrons ahead of them with the ICs attached (Sammael and a Librarian) to make them seem like a threat and to absorb casualties, with the BKs behind. BKs are the real teeth of any Ravenwing list, and are deadly to most things. Against assault armies, laugh and see the shock on their face when you reduce them -1 WS and -1I, then charge and massacre any assault units they have which venture too close. Then in their turn, hit and run, shoot and charge them again.

So far I've run two BK squads in my 16-0 undefeated RW list, and will be expanding to get another two. I run my BKs in squads of three, for maximum flexibility and economy of force.

Just spotted the extra shooting under Fast vehicles on page 83, cheers all.

Thanks for the advice so far

Yeh, I was trying to work things out yesterday. I couldn't figure out how to use these two. Unfortunately I'm using these in a 800point game, so I can't access a dark shroud just yet. It's from a league, originally started out with 400 points, next month is 800 then may Is 1200 etc

So I don't have access to that 2+ :( it's going to be interesting to try and get my bikes with 9" of an enemy to utilise rapid fire plasma and two grenade launchers

Would it be an idea to go for a dark shroud over a typhoon? Or one DS and one typhoon? I like the idea of 4 small blast templates and 6 heavy bolter shots, as well as potentially 8 plasma and then 24 rending attacks on the charge

Typhoons ARE very good and very cheap for DA
the key to survivability has already been highlited higher in this post
it mainly resides in pre-measurement :
If there's no risk, be at 35'' away and blast with both weapons
If there's some long-range firepower that can see them, stay over 48'' away and be barely in 48'' range from your target
Range and speed are your best defenses

I'll keep all this in mind, thankfully I've got a few practice games over the weekend to help me figure it out

 UltraTacSgt wrote:
I use two Land Speeder Typhoons all the time in my Codex Marine force. They can move up to 12" and still fire two weapons with full ballistic skill. That means they can move, gain their jink save, and still fire the Missiles and Heavy Bolter shots no problem.

Tactically I can suggest a few things.
-Always run them in a squadron of at least two. A single speeder is a joke and can be killed by almost anything. Having two insures that you won't give away an easy first-blood or kill point.
-Always move them. Even if you pick them up, say they flew in a circle, and land in the same spot. Always give yourself the 5+ jink.
-Keep them at range. Range is your second best defense. Be mindful of which enemy units are capable of shooting in the 36-48 inch range. I will often measure the nearest enemy threat to make sure they cannot move into range to shoot my speeders, using the 12" speeder movement to literally skim out of harms way.
-Don't let your Speeders be the only target. Giving your opponent something else to shoot at is the single best defense your Speeders have. I use two Vindicators and some Dreads along with some other things to keep the heat off my Speeders. The idea is to make your opponent loathe to waste valuable long ranged shots on Speeders instead of something scarier.

Basically, skim the Speeders around behind your lines to put their HB's and Missiles where they are needed. Use higher priority/more threatening units to take the attention away from the Speeders. And make full use of the mobility you are afforded with 12" of movement.

The part I bolded doesn't work. If the model stays in the exact same spot, it doesn't count as moving because it has not actually displaced any distance on the table top. However, there is no minimum movement restriction to get the jink save. So the landspeeder could move 1 inch, fire to full effect and still claim a 5+ cover save.

TanKoL wrote:
Typhoons ARE very good and very cheap for DA
the key to survivability has already been highlited higher in this post
it mainly resides in pre-measurement :
If there's no risk, be at 35'' away and blast with both weapons
If there's some long-range firepower that can see them, stay over 48'' away and be barely in 48'' range from your target
Range and speed are your best defenses

No, Typhoons are terrible in a Ravenwing list. They take a valuable FS slot, don't score, don't contest, and fire two missiles a turn.

RW lists should be either centred around the Standard of Devastation, in which case more bike squadrons, or a Darkshroud with 5+ Black Knight units.

At the minute I'm only playing an 800point game, which goes up 400 points every month but I *have* to keep whatever was in my army at the 400 and 800 points levels.

So my hands are tied, really.

What does a dark shroud off that a typhoon doesn't? I know about the 2+ jink/shroud boost, but does it provide anything offensive?

I mean 4 missile shots, and 6 heavy bolter rounds seems more advantageous to me, especially when i'm playing against orks tonight and the guy i'm playing has 42 models at 400 points, something like that - so god knows how many he'll have at 800 points.

The only benefit I can think of for the darkshroud is the 2+ save, which I appreciate is awesome.

Doesnt the Darkshroud give itself Shrouded (+2 cover) and everything else within 6" Stealth (+1 cover save)? Or do I have that backwards? Just trying to figure out how BKs get 2+ save...

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

RW lists should be either centred around the Standard of Devastation, in which case more bike squadrons, or a Darkshroud with 5+ Black Knight units.

Or both..

Moridan wrote:Doesnt the Darkshroud give itself Shrouded (+2 cover) and everything else within 6" Stealth (+1 cover save)? Or do I have that backwards? Just trying to figure out how BKs get 2+ save...

You got it correct.

BK gets 2+ cover by way of Jink (5+), moving All out (+1 to Jink save), Skilled Rider (for +1 to Jink save) and Darkshroud (Stealth, ie +1 to cover save).

Steelmage99 wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

RW lists should be either centred around the Standard of Devastation, in which case more bike squadrons, or a Darkshroud with 5+ Black Knight units.

Or both..

Moridan wrote:Doesnt the Darkshroud give itself Shrouded (+2 cover) and everything else within 6" Stealth (+1 cover save)? Or do I have that backwards? Just trying to figure out how BKs get 2+ save...

You got it correct.

BK gets 2+ cover by way of Jink (5+), moving All out (+1 to Jink save), Skilled Rider (for +1 to Jink save) and Darkshroud (Stealth, ie +1 to cover save).

Ok, makes sense. Thank you. Only problem I would see is having the darkshroud escorting the BKs into harms way. But I guess it would get its own 2+ save when moving flat out.

Against orks templates are your friends, so mixing the rad grenade with frag grenades/missiles is very effective. Not to mention your plasma talons will now double out his nob so no 2 wounds on him. From my limited personal experience with the bikes and land speeders: I'd go with the two typhoons (150 points) this increase and pick up more knights and dark shroud (80 points w/ heavy bolter) next increase. You could honestly pick up both (typhoons and dark shroud) and still have points for another Ravenwing Attack Squad. Then maybe next increase pick up a command squad with the Standard of Devastation and another couple of Attack Squads. Don't forget the the Typhoons can be purchased as part of a Ravenwing Attack Squad and not take up a fast attack slot (so long as the attack squad is maxed out) for list creation later down the road at higher points levels. You would still be using all the same models, just reorganizing it a bit.

To answer your question about offense from the dark shroud, it does have a heavy bolter standard and can be upgraded to an assault cannon.

It also has the Shroud of Angels which gives it shrouded and everything around it stealth.

Speeders don't take FA slots in a RW list, they come from the Troops slots when you take 6-man biker squads ...

You don't want to upgrade your Dark Shroud to an assault cannon as you want to move it flat-out every turn to grant itself a 2+ cover save

TanKoL wrote:
Speeders don't take FA slots in a RW list, they come from the Troops slots when you take 6-man biker squads ...

You don't want to upgrade your Dark Shroud to an assault cannon as you want to move it flat-out every turn to grant itself a 2+ cover save

Ravenwing Support Squadrons are still Fast Attack selections with Sammael in command. Which is good because then you may purchase squads of speeders, not just the one with a Ravenwing bike squad.

OK, I'm now looking at taking a Darkshroud.

I had a practice, as sad as that sounds, but I had a ten man tactical team, with a librarian that had prescience, a plasma cannon, plasma rifle.

I had my Black Knights 40" away, out of the range of the cannon, so I made them go flat out 24" with the Shroud 6" behind them - they ended up 16" away from the tacticals, well within range to make the plasma talons use their rapid fire mode.

I've got two questions about that - if I use rapid fire within 9" can I still assault? And what if I roll two dice, twos for example, roll them again coz they're twin linked, and roll a six on one and a 1 on the other? Does only one weapon fire, or does that 1 stop both firing?

Typhoons, stat wise, are better attacking than the darkshroud but that 2+ mobile cover, plus a +1 on the assault distance is something else!

Anyway, in my practice, I had 8 plasma shots (hitting on reduced toughness) which instant killed 8 marines, leaving the Librarian, the plasma cannon, and a regular marine left. Snap shots were saved, and I made two 6 rolls and forced 11 armour saves - they failed 4 saves, so the whole unit was wiped out.

Sorry for the long post aha

Since the bikes are relentless the answer is yes you can rapid fire and still assault.

 BayneMor wrote:
Since the bikes are relentless the answer is yes you can rapid fire and still assault.

*high five for awesomeness*

D'oh... clicked the wrong thing. Don't mind me.... *whistles nonchalantly*

 stubacca wrote:
they ended up 16" away from the tacticals, well within range to make the plasma talons use their rapid fire mode.

Plasma Talons have 18" range.....so they get two shots within 9".


EDIT......which you are well aware of as shown later in the post.

Don't mind me.

OK, so how about this for a list, 800 points

Librarian - upgraded to level two mastery
10 x tactical marines - one plasma cannon, one plasma rifle
8 x scouts - 7 with sniper rifles, 1 missile launcher and all with camo cloaks
6 x black knights, 2 with grenade launchers, all with corvus hammers
a darkshroud
I was thinking maybe, a razorback with twin-linked plasma/lascannon
and a predator with an autocannon and heavy bolter sponsons?

That's 797 points in total
Some people I play against already have stuff like a rhino, down at a 400 point level, so at 800 I'm sure people will try and sneak vehicles in.

(I play in a league system, 400 points month one, 800 points month two, 1200 month three and so on but we have to keep the stuff we brought from month 1, 2, 3 in our armies)

You've got a LOT of plasma there. I know it's the Dark Angels' thing, but I'd look at the Predator next to redress some anti-horde balance. You can look at melta and lascannons for vehicles at higher points levels, this low down the only vehicles you're likely to face will drown in plasma fire.

Otherwise, the list looks good. Make sure the Librarian goes for Divination to take Prescience, that way you can reroll any Gets Hot! results on your tactical squad.

 Super Ready wrote:
You've got a LOT of plasma there. I know it's the Dark Angels' thing, but I'd look at the Predator next to redress some anti-horde balance. You can look at melta and lascannons for vehicles at higher points levels, this low down the only vehicles you're likely to face will drown in plasma fire.

Otherwise, the list looks good. Make sure the Librarian goes for Divination to take Prescience, that way you can reroll any Gets Hot! results on your tactical squad.

That's the good thing, we *have* to keep the same units, but upgrades you can change to who you suit. I just wish I could have a Baal predator or two with a flame storm cannon u__u aha

I'm thinking against orks/guard (the only hoard armies I'm facing) that I'll just got for upgrades that give me the greatest number of shots.

The guys I'm playing have - Eldar, two Chaos (one nurgle, the other a mix), Ultramarines, another Dark Angel list, Tau (which I'm not looking forward to considering the codex update next week), another guy as Salamanders but he may change to Space Wolves, Grey Knights, two Ork players, and Necrons.

So I'm against a lot of power armour, I think my Black Knights will help, especially at 800 points! ...and if the dice gods look favourably on me lol

If you want to take a Typhoon and not usea FA slot, simply take it as part of a Ravenwing Attack Squadron. If you think they suck, you are doing it wrong. Though arguably the points could be better spent on more bikes, the Typhoons themselves are good.

No. When you can have another unit of bikes which synergise with Darkshroud, can assault, contest and score, there is no point in taking a Typhoon.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you already have the models, tough, but I don't bother with Tac marines or scouts.

Bikes are better in every way.

Going off your scoreline, you'll probably know the answer - one of two darkshrouds? I've been reading some confusion on whether or not the darkshroud itself gets a 2+ save when it moves flat out

Impressive stats though!

Have you got Sammael as your HQ?