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I've seen it said a lot here that these are useless due to the fact they will "almost" die as fast as normal veterans, and that Carapace Armour is completely useless. I also saw comments suggesting a list could be built around them though. What exactly helps Grenadiers become more useful? Another thing which confuses me about their apparent uselessness is the fact that Storm Troopers have a 4+ save included in their point cost. Wouldn't this somehow reduce the point of taking them? Since they are (as far as I can see) fairly similar units.

Also Ogryns are a choice I've thought seem really cool (just the models and things). They seem a bit random though. How would you incorporate them into a list? What do they need to make them better?

foxyfennec wrote:
What exactly helps Grenadiers become more useful?

Nothing. It's too expensive for an upgrade that offers very little improvement in durability.

Another thing which confuses me about their apparent uselessness is the fact that Storm Troopers have a 4+ save included in their point cost. Wouldn't this somehow reduce the point of taking them? Since they are (as far as I can see) fairly similar units.

Except that one is scoring and one isn't.

Also Ogryns are a choice I've thought seem really cool (just the models and things). They seem a bit random though. How would you incorporate them into a list?

I wouldn't. They're too expensive and limited in what they can do.

What do they need to make them better?

Not dying to bolter fire. T5 with multiple wounds is nice, but the lack of a meaningful armor save completely negates it. A viable way to deliver them to a target would be nice, but is less of a priority.

I can see one way of fielding Ogryns :
24 and 2 Lord Commissars in a Gorgon

 Peregrine wrote:

foxyfennec wrote:

Another thing which confuses me about their apparent uselessness is the fact that Storm Troopers have a 4+ save included in their point cost. Wouldn't this somehow reduce the point of taking them? Since they are (as far as I can see) fairly similar units.

Except that one is scoring and one isn't.

Are you saying Storm Troopers are worse than Grenadiers?

One thing you could try with Ogryns is to have five in a Chimera. The five Fire Points allow you to fire all 15 shots out while the Chimera drives up the table (with appropriate cross-support, of course, target saturation and all that), then the T5 multi-wound nature of the squad makes them nice and resilient against the Chimera exploding, and then you should have a squad with surprisingly good shooting and combat prowess in the opponent's lines.

As for Grenadiers... I personally wouldn't take them, as I like my Veterans to carry Demolitions and three Meltas (either in a Vendetta or a Chimera) but I can see how they could be good. The main issue with Grenadiers is that one Grenadier unit is the same points (before upgrades) as two Infantry Squads. Against small arms fire, the two choices die as quickly as each other, and against anything heavier the Grenadiers die faster. It's true that the Grenadiers have better BS, but then there's half as many of them. So you'd need to be looking at special weapons for it to really be worthwhile.

There is one build of Grenadiers I would happily take - ten in a Chimera with Plasma Guns. The extra armour makes them slightly more survivable when their guns overheat or their ride blows up, and being Veterans they can make good use out of the higher BS.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that the Carapace is part of what makes Stormtroopers good - it's effectively an extra tax on them. What makes them good is more-precise-than-normal Deep Strike and BS4 special weapons, allowing them to drop two Meltas next to a dangerous vehicle or two Plasma Guns (and Plasma Pistols to taste) next to an elite infantry squad. They're designed to take out a high-value target, then distract one or two units as they get shot to pieces.

So yeah, ultimately, I would say that it is quite viable to have a Grenadier army with Ogryns. Just make sure you're happy to buy plenty of Chimeras.

So, I briefly ran grenadiers vets to reasonable success. You can see an example of my 100+ carapace model guard horde here.

The point of grenadiers vets is that infantry are way easier to kill than before, and carapace actually does help against a lot of those dedicated anti-infantry weapons. Furthermore, it makes them not beholden to cover nearly as much, so, in theory, they are going to have some ability to actually make it upfield.

The main problem, of course, is that there are still a wide swath of weapons that are Ap4+ or better. The mistake I made with bringing stormtroopers to accompany the vets is that you need something with alpha strike power to be able to neutralize those things at the beginning of the game. If you ran "dura-vets" with russes or artillery, I think you could make a pretty serious go of it.

As for ogryn, they're not as bad as everybody says, but they do have a few hard counters, and you do have to sink a fair number of points into them, which makes them a questionable choice for any game less than 1500 points. Basically, ogryn are heavy bolter guardsmen who don't care about anti-infantry weapons. They're good linebacker units, and you can also run them around in chimeras for faster, more concentrated, more shooting ripper guns out the top hatch anger.

 Ailaros wrote:
So, I briefly ran grenadiers vets to reasonable success. You can see an example of my 100+ carapace model guard horde here.

The point of grenadiers vets is that infantry are way easier to kill than before, and carapace actually does help against a lot of those dedicated anti-infantry weapons. Furthermore, it makes them not beholden to cover nearly as much, so, in theory, they are going to have some ability to actually make it upfield.

The main problem, of course, is that there are still a wide swath of weapons that are Ap4+ or better. The mistake I made with bringing stormtroopers to accompany the vets is that you need something with alpha strike power to be able to neutralize those things at the beginning of the game. If you ran "dura-vets" with russes or artillery, I think you could make a pretty serious go of it.

As for ogryn, they're not as bad as everybody says, but they do have a few hard counters, and you do have to sink a fair number of points into them, which makes them a questionable choice for any game less than 1500 points. Basically, ogryn are heavy bolter guardsmen who don't care about anti-infantry weapons. They're good linebacker units, and you can also run them around in chimeras for faster, more concentrated, more shooting ripper guns out the top hatch anger.

I've been on here like, 7-8 years, and I don't know how long you've been posting here Ailaros but I know every thing I've read that you've written has cracked me up.

I wouldn't bother with carapace armor, the other, equally pointed doctrine is better. In my experience, a chimera is better to take for vets anyway, they don't lose their ability to blob or anything and chimeras are like adding two heavy weapons, mobility, and security to an otherwise squishy squad for the cost of making two vet units a tad bit more survivable.

Veteran Squads can't combine. Only Infantry squads can. As for duravets, Ailaros is correct in that they work well with arty and tanks.

 ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
Veteran Squads can't combine. Only Infantry squads can. As for duravets, Ailaros is correct in that they work well with arty and tanks.

I think that was his point, that veterans don't lose anything by getting in a Chimera, as opposed to a regular infantry squad.

I have tried playing agressive with regular light infantry (Guardsmen) on foot for a while now, and it just doesn't work. They are so slow compared to their durability, that they won't get anywhere if they leave cover. This is especially the case when playing against marines of all sorts, because any kind of str 4+ ap5 shooting will completely murder your squads as they advance.
In my opinion the case now is that regular infantry squads, blobbed or not, should always stay out of the 24" range of bolters, preferrably in cover. This means that they are reduced to protecting tanks and objectives while fielding a heavy weapon and a special weapon in case anybody gets in range. Veterans are on the other hand reduced to sitting in Chimeras, because they simply have too much firepower for their level of durability, so that targeting them would always make sense for an opponent.

Ogryns could make a decent assault unit, their main problem is just that they don't have any kind of armour penetration in close combat. I saw Ailaros fielding them with a PF Lord Commisar in a batrep once, and it worked decently. They just need a Chimera as well, and you have a unit that can definately break your opponents non-dedicated assault units.

Except that the ogryns and The Lord commissar have to survive a turn outside of the chimera if they want to assault.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Except that the ogryns and The Lord commissar have to survive a turn outside of the chimera if they want to assault.

True, but in my opinion, it is still better than slogging it on foot.