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Why horde them they loose their extra attacks, they are expensive and can't be increased like skelies or zombies.

Hmm I usually dont recall horded ghouls.

Though out of all the core they do the most damage, so more attacks is always good

They loose their attacks though.

I guess because of despite losing 1A, you still get ~7 additional poison attacks.

But I don't thinks its worth the massive point cost compared to the others

Surely loosing extra attacks is a good thing? Losing them would, of course, be bad...

Sorry iPad predicted text...

i buy XHW upgrade on all my gor's they don't get the extra attack from the back rank correct but having extra attacks from horde is worth it from the stand point that you loose less models to unstable.

BaconUprising wrote:
They loose their attacks though.

What? How do they lose attacks?

 Krellnus wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:
They loose their attacks though.

What? How do they lose attacks?

2 base attacks, supporting attacks max 1.

The reason for hording them is the same as for hording any other unit, to add an extra rank of attacks. You're not losing any attacks as you'd be running more than one rank anyway.

 jonolikespie wrote:
The reason for hording them is the same as for hording any other unit, to add an extra rank of attacks. You're not losing any attacks as you'd be running more than one rank anyway.

Pretty sure he meant that you could either make a e.g. horde of 50 models or two units of 25.

BaconUprising wrote:
Why horde them they loose their extra attacks, they are expensive and can't be increased like skelies or zombies.

Even though Ghouls will not get to use both their base attacks from supporting position while in Horde formation, Horde formation still gives them more attacks than they would otherwise.

Assume 30 ghouls (minimum for Horde Formation). Examine two different possible options, 3 x 10 or 6 x 5 (Horde and "Bus" Formations). Assuming you're fighting against a like sized base unit that also has a frontage of five models, the Horde will get 28 total attacks (the extra ghouls on the corners of the enemy unit get to attack) while the "Bus" gets 15 attacks. The extra wounds caused by the additional 13 attacks should more than outweigh the extra ranks in combat resolution considering rank bonuses are capped at +3.

The difference becomes more pronounced as the frontage of the enemy unit increases. The "Bus" formation is capped at having 15 attacks barring outside influence. The Horde will cap at 40 attacks.

The numbers change if you look at 6 or 7 frontage units or units with larger base sizes than the Ghouls, but there is no point where a non Horde unit of ghouls will have more attacks than an equivalent number of ghouls in Horde formation. While the supporting attacks are limited to one per model, Horde formation allows twice as many supporting attacks.

Now, this doesn't address the general opinion that Skeletons are superior troops. That's a different discussion.

The other thing you have to remember is that small units are usually really bad for undead, as you'll lose the guys in combat, and then also have the possibility of also losing them due to crumble.

If you've got a large horde, not only are they more survivable, but they can also hope to make sure they don't crumble by winning the combat. With any luck, you do enough and you get them to break and run them down.

Also, poisoned attacks are great against high toughness, low armour save troops. Ogres can be minced by a good unit of ghouls, depending whether he gets the charge off or not, and how the combat goes. You don't really want to put ghouls up against things like Knights, especially if they get the charge off into you, as you're unlikely to last long due to them crushing you in combat, and you being unable to get past their 2+ armour save. Poison won't really be as much of a benefit here. Better to use Great Weapon Grave Guard against them.

Pick your battles to use ghouls in. For higher armoured guys, probably better to hold them off using skeletons, or a big big unit of zombies. Skeletons with spears are great in a horde (due to the extra rank), and zombies are good as big meaty units it's hard to get through. 100 zombies in horde formation is 310 points if you give them a musician and standard. That's a bargain for unbreakable troops.

The one thing you've also got to consider is not taking any individual unit at face value when making a Vampire Counts list. Their army, probably more than any others, relies on synergy. By that I mean taken on their own the troops might not look so great, but put a corpse cart near the zombies, and they're striking first. Bring a Mortis Engine, and they're regenerating, and your engine can harm nearby enemies with it's aura as well as banshee's. Put some ethereal characters like banshees or wraiths in the unit, and now it can hit like a champion, while soaking a bunch of wounds.

Ghouls are expensive, but they do get 2 attacks, a good toughness, and poisoned attacks. Horde formation is how they should go. Skeletons can do either, and zombies are either in a bus of 50, a bunker of 20 for necromancers to hide in, or a horde of 100 to really soak a huge amount of attacks. Depends on how you choose to play it.

Actually small units are great in VC armies, you need big units as well but small units of zombies and skeletons don't attract much attention and can soon be increased to a massive size when they reach the enemy.


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Also I'm not debating the effectiveness of ghouls, I know they are decent but I believe that horde wise we have to many more viable options.

Unless your only running them in one rank the point of your thread is beyond me

Um units of 20?

Where you still lose attacks

How?

BaconUprising wrote:
Um units of 20?

Unless you go 20 wide vs. at least 18 wide (ehm...) supporting attacks still are limited to 1 for normal infantry.

Godamit!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thinking of spears

No worries man

BaconUprising wrote:
Godamit!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thinking of spears

Even spears you still lose attacks no?

Well, yeah, if the spear-wielding model had 2 attacks.

No I mean more spear models get to attack

Yeah I know, but models with 2 attacks and armed with spears still only get one supporting attack (yes, you're getting more TOTAL attacks due to Fight in Extra Ranks, but you're still not maximizing the models' attack characteristic).

That's why I said more models get to attack not each model gets more attacks...

Ghouls can't equip spears, guys, and given that most VC units than can get spears are tarpits, sword&board is superior.

Yeah I know I'm just... gah, I'm so confused.

You want ghouls in a horde because they have 2 attacks for the front rank, and you can get two additional ranks to fight for 1 attack each. They're all poisoned attacks and that makes them good at taking out high toughness low armour targets.

Small units for Vampire Counts has never worked for me, they just get smashed down way too quickly and crumble. I believe in getting across the board as fast as possible, and engaging the enemy on my terms. Hoping to raise more guys to make units bigger to take on the enemy is asking for trouble, especially if you have a bad magic phase, or the opponent can seem to dispel all your invocations. Better to have them big at the beginning, and redirect your magic to things like an big version of Van Hels to help you get across the table.

Also, ghouls can't be raised beyond their starting number. If you're going to take them, go large. Otherwise stick to zombies or skeletons.