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I have another question. I play orks in my gaming group and I'm trying to figure out a few things.

I seem to be running across a lot of ignores cover and it doesn't make sense that everything shot a me ignores cover. I know flamers do but what about ordnance weapons specifically vindicators. I looked through the book but I didn't see anything about ignores cover.

Also I was wondering about the new chaos space marine codex powers. There's primaris power in the book that has you roll 3d6 and subtract from your leadership, the difference is taken in wounds on the squad. I was told this also ignores cover with no saves of any kind allowed. At leadership 7 you can imagine the result With 3 guys in the army doing that, I didn't have much left to work with after turn two.

Is it common for this many things to ignore cover? Every time I have a game everything seems to ignores cover and while I am playing orks and I only get tshirt saves I'd like the chance to roll em. It seems odd during games but I don't like holding up the game because some of our club members have a limited time and I can always figure it out after the games over.

I also had a question about blast weapons and templates.

I know flame templates you remove casualties from under the template, but what about blast/large blast templates. I know that indirect fire and barrage weapons you treat the center of the blast for line of sight so the casualties come from under the template. I thought the the other blast markers the casualties come of the line of sight from the model firing so they would come of the front instead of under the template. Am I wrong in this?

Are ordinance weapons considered barrage weapons? It doesn't say so in the rule book but I don't know space marines to well

Vindicators do not ignore cover. You've been cheated.

There is no such power in the CSM codex. It may be Psychic Shriek from the BRB Telepathy discipline which ignores cover and armour.

It isnt common for weapons to ignore cover, I'll list the ones for space marines that I can remember off the top of my head

Thunderfire cannon, one of the ammo types has the ignore cover str 5 ap6 I think.

Sternguard, one of the ammo types is ignore cover

flamers and heavy flamers

There is also a psyhic power, perfect timing that grants ignore cover to the psyker and his squad, on the divination table so vanillla marines cant take that, only BA and SW and DA. Then there is a pryomancy power or two which ignores cover and is ap5 I think, very good power against orks and guard as it is 2d6 str 3 or 4 hits to every unit in 6 inches! (nova power)

Vindicators do not ignore cover, guard also have one of their tanks that ignore cover, that I cant remember, they also have a lot of barrage that weapons that decide cover based on where the blast marker lands so if it is behind a aegis you wont be getting saves from the aegis

Ya that sounds like what he's was using. He said you roll 3d6 and subtract from my leadership.

That is psyhic shriek, dont forget you get a deny the witch from that and are orks counted as ld 10 if they number over 10 models?, think that will come into play as well

Mmm I'm not sure he said it had to be my base unmodified leadership so 7.

 wowsmash wrote:
Mmm I'm not sure he said it had to be my base unmodified leadership so 7.

You always use the highest leadership for ld tests (i.e if you have a nob or IC in there), there is nothing to say you have to use unmodifed leadership so you were cheated again buddy!.

Just checked in the ork dex and you can always choose to subsitute the number of orks in their mob for their normal leadership value. So even if you have 9 you are ld9

We're a new gaming club so were all learning as we go. The few the have played before are more familiar with 5th so they get some of their rules mixed up but that's ok we're learning.

Something else that happened during the game I researched but I want make sure I have right before I take it to the group so me are playing right.

If a model/s is the same length from a firing its randomized to see who takes the wound but in assualt the controlling player chooses who takes the wounds.

I giving example.... We're playing the relic mission. It's on last turn and a deamon prince has it in the center of the board. I've cut him off from the rest of his force by tank shocking behind him so he can get reinforced right away. I charge him with full nobz squad plus boss, 5 claws total. I take 7 or 8 wounds I think and so I take of the nobz without claws but he said I had to kill some klaws and that it had to be randomized. So we did just to keep the game moving and my poor rolling got 4 of the claws killed lol. After I checked the rule book and it says I choose in assualt. Is that right or is there something I'm missing?

I am going to have to take that on my Doom I didn't realize it ignored cover. I will have 2 3d6 powers on the doom that ignore armor and 1 ignores cover.

Yeah the orcs I played vs my Doom always get the 10 leadership vs his 3d6 leadership power that is very similar to that power.

For your Klaw removal question, you assign wounds in CC just like for shooting
So the closest die first
If they are at equal range (obviously the case for the ones in BtB), the active player (ie. the guy who's removing his casualties) decides who dies first
That means you can remove whoever you want first
Only exception (important with nobz), if you start putting wounds on one guy in this specific sub-phase, you have to allocate wounds to him until he dies, you can't say "i put a wound on each guy so that they all survive"

It ain't randomized, in case of an equal distance, defenser chooses, randomize is used when there's no way of telling where it comes from (ie. exploding vehicle), and even then, We usually don't care at my FLGS for speed's and simplicity's sake

No, in CC you remove which models you want that are in base to base contact with the enemy that is attacking at that intative step, so if they are all attacking at the same I step you chose which. You can also look out sir for the characters if you start to assign wounds to them.

Ah thank you. I just wanted to double check before I bring it up at our next gaming night. Since there's loop holes in some of the rules because of various FAQ and wording issues. Thanks for clearing that up

 wowsmash wrote:

I also had a question about blast weapons and templates.

I know flame templates you remove casualties from under the template, but what about blast/large blast templates. I know that indirect fire and barrage weapons you treat the center of the blast for line of sight so the casualties come from under the template. I thought the the other blast markers the casualties come of the line of sight from the model firing so they would come of the front instead of under the template. Am I wrong in this?

You are incorrect about template attacks. There is no rule for templates or blasts that modify how you remove casualties; you simply add those wounds to the Wound Pool and allocate them just like any other wounds you inflict.

Barrage weapons are an exception to this, where wounds are allocated as if the shot originated from the centre of the blast marker. See the rulebook p34 and the FAQ for more information.

Are ordinance weapons considered barrage weapons? It doesn't say so in the rule book but I don't know space marines to well

Ordnance and Barrage are two separate attributes, but a weapon can have both.

Now, I think the confusion might be that the Vindicator's Demolisher Cannon is listed incorrectly (in both places) in the SM codex: once, on p80, it fails to list the "Blast" attribute; and again on the summary page where it says that it's an Ordnance Barrage. The FAQ fixes the first profile, but not the second, and only vaguely tells the player to refer to the rulebook for "current" weapon profiles.

In any case, I think it's safe to say that the rules contained within the main part of the codex take precedence over the summary page, purely by virtue of it being a summary page.

 wowsmash wrote:
I giving example.... We're playing the relic mission. It's on last turn and a deamon prince has it in the center of the board. I've cut him off from the rest of his force by tank shocking behind him so he can get reinforced right away.

Just to point out, but only scoring units can hold the Relic. It sounds like in your game the Daemon Prince had the relic - did he roll a Warlord trait that made him a scoring unit?

Zoned

For ordinance ignoring cover - it shouldn't.
Unless it has the "Barrage" special rule, which is common amongst IG artillery. The reason for this is that the shot comes from the centre of the blast template in the case of a Barrage.
Normal ordinance has no such power.

Flame templates pretty much always ignore cover, and Psychic Shriek (3D6 wounds - target's LD) does not allow saves, so no cover there.

Barrage does not actually ignore cover, just modifies where the shot comes from.

To clarify with an example:

A unit of orks is sitting inside a forest. They are hit by barrage weapons. Because they are in area terrain, they still get their 5+ cover save.

vs

A unit of orks is hiding behind a forest, but not in it. A unit fires at the Orks with regular weapons. The Orks get a cover save because the unit is firing through cover. The same ork unit is fired at by units with barrage weapons, and the barrage lands on top of the orks. Because you draw line of effect from the center of the barrage's blast template, there is no cover between the orks and the shot, so no cover save is allowed.

I'm sure that made things much more confusing...

yes his warlord trait made him scoring.

the 6th edition rule book says that the vindicator is ordinance 1 but it doesnt say it has barrage. So is that a mistake or no?

 Cheexsta wrote:
You are incorrect about template attacks. There is no rule for templates or blasts that modify how you remove casualties; you simply add those wounds to the Wound Pool and allocate them just like any other wounds you inflict.

This needs clarifying. As the saves taken will be different (ie you don't get cover against the template's wounds), you need to identify the flamer wounds - meaning in practice, you're looking at a couple of pools. As per page 15, the "Mixed Wounds" boxout, the shooting player gets to decide which types of wounds apply first - so he may opt to make you suffer the flamer wounds first followed by bolter wounds where cover saves still apply, for instance.

No, there is one pool, and only ever one pool. There are then separate groups within the pool, separated by S, AP, etc.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, there is one pool, and only ever one pool. There are then separate groups within the pool, separated by S, AP, etc.

The whole pool thing is a technicality, really.

All that matters is that "X" unit will take "Y" wounds with AP "A", and "Z" wounds with AP "B".

You then apply each shot category one by one in any order until it's all been resolved.

It isnt a technicality, it is an actual "thing" created by the rules.

Selym wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, there is one pool, and only ever one pool. There are then separate groups within the pool, separated by S, AP, etc.

The whole pool thing is a technicality, really.

All that matters is that "X" unit will take "Y" wounds with AP "A", and "Z" wounds with AP "B".

You then apply each shot category one by one in any order until it's all been resolved.

By technicality you mean an important rule right?

Strength is also a category you go by too. You don't lop lazcannon wounds in with plasma as it's a different strength and may ID your models. In fact I think ID is a sperate catagory if you have an ID power sword and a power sword in a unit they get grouped differently if they hit at the same time.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

Selym wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, there is one pool, and only ever one pool. There are then separate groups within the pool, separated by S, AP, etc.

The whole pool thing is a technicality, really.

All that matters is that "X" unit will take "Y" wounds with AP "A", and "Z" wounds with AP "B".

You then apply each shot category one by one in any order until it's all been resolved.

By technicality you mean an important rule right?

Strength is also a category you go by too. You don't lop lazcannon wounds in with plasma as it's a different strength and may ID your models. In fact I think ID is a sperate catagory if you have an ID power sword and a power sword in a unit they get grouped differently if they hit at the same time.

I know, hence why I said "Shot category".

Adding in all the different variables would have been a horrible mess of a sentence, so I didn't add them in. I was kinda hoping people would actually know that any differences between two shots would put them in different categories.

EDIT: Here's what if could have looked like:

 Mythra wrote:
I am going to have to take that on my Doom I didn't realize it ignored cover. I will have 2 3d6 powers on the doom that ignore armor and 1 ignores cover.

Yeah the orcs I played vs my Doom always get the 10 leadership vs his 3d6 leadership power that is very similar to that power.

Remember that Psychic Shriek is a Witchfire and will need to roll to hit.

 wowsmash wrote:
the 6th edition rule book says that the vindicator is ordinance 1 but it doesnt say it has barrage. So is that a mistake or no?

Don't think anyone else answered this...
No not a mistake. Many Ordance weapons are not barrage. The vindicator is definitely NOT barrage (it shoots at you, not straight up).