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I took this off a historical gaming group I am a member of. I was curious what dakkadakka would have to say on the subject, since it is comprised mostly of sf and fantasy gamers, and might even have something to do with evil empires.

--- In old_school_wargamin g@yahoogroups. com, "Jon" <jonlaughlin20@ ...> wrote:
>
> Wargaming is one hobby that is not controlled by one or a small number of big companies. It is controlled by the people who enjoy playing it. On the other hand that my be why it is not as popular as we would like it to be. We do not have billions of dollars to spend on promoting it like the big companies do. That makes it so that no higher power can tell ushow or what we can do in our hobby or who's rules or what the official figures we are suposed to use are like in that one "Big Companies" game that is the dominate force in both fantasy and science fiction wargaming.
>




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Re: Entusiast controlled




Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:17 am (PDT) . Posted by:

"Walt" gloriousbattle

Well, I'd really like to agree, but...

To me, comparing historicals to fantasy and sf (I play all three) is like comparing the guys who play variant chess games to the World Chess Federation. Yes, they are a presence, but nowhere near so large, which is both a benefit and a hindrance.

On the one hand, we can do what we like, OTOH, there are that many fewer people to do it with.

To the extent that historical wargaming does gain some size (as with Flames of War) it becomes much like the evil empire referred to previously.

I'm afraid it is hard to have it both ways. Football is a big "hobby" , but that means official rules, official equipment, official teams, official stadiums, and contract, professional players. When was the last time you saw the Packers and the Browns play a skins game?

Sigh. That's the world we live in.

There is allot of truth to this idea. I've been involved in Historical gaming from the start of my gaming life and for the last five or so years have been exclusively a historical gamer and even amongst the bigger historical companies such as Battlefront or Warlord there is a feeling that what they do is by gamers for gamers.

That Historical periods cannot be 'owned' and the players tend to be older ensures there is always healthy competition and there are less gamers that unthinkingly loyal to the big players.

Even Battlefront know they can't play the 'Evil Empire' in the same way GW do so they do give stuff away for free (such as paperback rulebooks and PDF lists and errata) and their sets provide half decent value for money.

Good points.

For somebody to claim the American Civil War or the Hundred Years War as his intellectual property would be a bit difficult, to say the least.

Also, as you point out, older gamers are a lot less susceptible to fanboyism, and are far more likely to tell a bossy gaming company to get bent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Interesting that no WH or 40k players are chiming in. I'd really like to hear the non-historical gamer's take on this.

Of course, to a real extent, you can't copywrite fantasy either. The world is replete with games containing goblins, elves, dwarfs, dragons, etc.

For my part, I play 40K in 15mm scale, and have no GW figs in my SF collection. Then again, I am an older gamer.

Historical wargaming is a niche but a very large niche.

The key difference between historicals and F/SF is that historical gamers are essentially simulationist. Their games are based on actual historical facts which have to be reflected in the design.

F/SF is a wide open field which although based on similar concepts of fighting, allows all kinds of wackiness to be played out. That appeals to a wider audience who aren't so interested in the details and want a fun game that can be got going quickly.

This creates the opportunity for "evil empires" to make their own background, rules, unit designs, etc. Players can buy it all off the shelf, which appeals to a lot of people who aren't interested in history simulation and wouldn't bother to read a history book.

In case this sounds a bit snobbish I would point out firstly that I play historicals and F/SF. There are plenty of historical gamers who rely on Osprey or WRG publications for the details -- I do myself -- and there are plenty of F/SF gamers who put a lot of effort into the details of their armies and even make their own game worlds. And there are plenty of relatively simple and arguably unrealistic historical rules. It isn't a matter of intellectual superiority it is just a matter of the emphasis on simulation versus game.

But the crucial thing is you can't copyright history. This is what in the end has started to trip up Flames of War. They made a clever step by creating a game system that is fairly similar to the WH/40K paradigm, and using 15mm when traditionally WW2 was played with 6mm or 20mm models.

That allowed them to tap into a large audience brought up on WH/40K and activated by Saving Private Ryan.

Making the "official" models in 15mm created a new market which they have exploited successfully for some years. In the end, though, other companies have caught up and are issuing rival 15mm models, made possible partly by the decrease in cost of plastic moulding and also by the broadening of the market thanks to FoW.

To be fair there are plenty of small to medium companies involved in various aspects of F/SF -- Corvus, Hasslefree, Mantic, MERCS, etc.

I an an avid 40k player.... look at my avatar...
but I have slowly been thrown into historical gaming.
I'm going to go to college for archaeology, so history is a huge deal, especially early German history.

I love dba, I love FOG, I love wma.

The 2 things I love about historical gaming are 1. Prices are whatever you want to spend and 2. I get to reenact battles that happened 2000 plus years ago.

No one company monopolises the industry. Anybody can get miniatures from Essex, magister militum, warlord, wargames factory, the foundry etc.
I can buy 100 German foot soldiers (10mm) for $6. That's 15 warband stands in dba.

Or I can get 8 Gallic fanatics for $15 from warlord in 28mm.

I can play multiple games with my dba and Wm stands.

I can run 1000pts of WAB then go play hc with the same troops.

Historical gaming is based on those who play it, and those who enjoy history, tactics, and a solid hobby.

Best thing I've ever said: friend "did you watch the Superbowl last night?" Me "no, I was busy killing Romans."
So historical games are for those who enjoy a hobby, and enjoy tactically fulfilling games.

 Kilkrazy wrote:


But the crucial thing is you can't copyright history. This is what in the end has started to trip up Flames of War. They made a clever step by creating a game system that is fairly similar to the WH/40K paradigm, and using 15mm when traditionally WW2 was played with 6mm or 20mm models.

That allowed them to tap into a large audience brought up on WH/40K and activated by Saving Private Ryan.

Making the "official" models in 15mm created a new market which they have exploited successfully for some years.

Though this didn't take long. Axis & Allies Miniatures is 15mm scale (infantry are arguably 12-15mm scale, depending on the piece). When I got into 15mm WW2, the first thing I did was grab as man of the cheapest A&A minis I could find (the Soviet ptrd 43 was $.05 for a while, and I got a lot of those).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Historical wargaming is a niche but a very large niche.

The key difference between historicals and F/SF is that historical gamers are essentially simulationist. Their games are based on actual historical facts which have to be reflected in the design.

F/SF is a wide open field which although based on similar concepts of fighting, allows all kinds of wackiness to be played out. That appeals to a wider audience who aren't so interested in the details and want a fun game that can be got going quickly.

I can agree with that in part. Even in WHFB, not exactly well known for its realism, people still want knights to function like knights, pikes to function like pikes, etc. I think if you had a medieval fantasy game in which the peasants could get away with charging and slaughtering the chivalry, you'd have a lot of objections, even from those not terribly well versed in history.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 aapch45 wrote:

Best thing I've ever said: friend "did you watch the Superbowl last night?" Me "no, I was busy killing Romans."
So historical games are for those who enjoy a hobby, and enjoy tactically fulfilling games.

I imagine that gets some funny looks. I have done the same thing, though I confess that I never bragged about it.

BTW, I love Romans vs. Germans, especially the later Empire when the Germans are more professional. Alaric was no howling, half-naked savage from the Rhine, and gave his Roman enemies, erstwhile masters quite the headache. Ondeed, it took another German (Stilicho) to beat him.

I do what I like in SF/F and Historical games, but then again I'm probably considered an "Older Gamer" now.

Hey Guys,

I am an avid 40k fan, NOT a GW marketing fan.

I got into Historical Wargaming before I even knew what it was....

[i]Sherman---set the dial for the way back machine to 1983...

In my childhood friends basement, his father had a what I thought was a Railroad table...and it had little pieces of cardboard with tanks and infantry printed on them...we wanted to play with those guys but his father gave us specific instructions..." Anything in the basement is yours to play with, BUT STAY OFF THIS TABLE!!!" We then went outside and proceeded to blow up our G.I. Joes in the sand pits.
Years later Im looking in my copy of Dragon Magazine and I saw an ad for a game called WARHAMMER...it had pictures of ORCS with GUNS!!!! I was hooked instantly.

Point is...

My first exposure was Historical gaming with those little paper chits..they looked cool and I wanted to know what it was about but didnt know how to ask my friends dad about what they were doing..
But I was able to get into Warhammer...

So I guess that the BIG companies kinda do have a strangle hold on the entry level gamer, but as we open our eyes and look around historical gaming does appear on radar and it will get noticed by more and more people. Its kinda up to us as the Alternative group to stoke the fires if you will and get others into our "niche".

Just my two cents worth..

Started on 40k. In my early 20's, and have very little money, so obviously it's hard to really get into the game. The only thing that has kept me in has been the group of people I play with. If I could only get pickup games I would have sold my stuff off long ago. There's a very bitter feeling in the community for GW, and you can feel it on almost every level. Even when GW does something right, it feels more like they did it by accident rather than on purpose. Here it feels very much like players vs. the company.

Picked up Bolt Action because I was looking for a game to give me a break from 40k. My group is extremely competitive so I went to the other store that has a more relaxed playerbase and picked up Bolt Action immediately. Even Warlord's stuff was far cheaper than GW, and I remember my start on both my Germans and American forces were those 30 man boxes from Wargames factory for 20 bucks. The fact that historical gaming is so much easier to get into, and the fact that your minis are always a good investment is nice. Even if Bolt Action dies out in a year, I can just buy a book for another system and have an army ready to go. Adding onto that, Warlord seems like a really laidback company, and the way they reach out to their community is a breath of fresh air to me. Here it feels much more like by gamers for gamers (that's how it comes off to me, not sure how others feel about it.)

That, plus the fact that I've always been a big history buff and fascinated with WWII made it a natural fit. Only thing that stopped me from picking up Flames of War too was that I didn't think I could paint at that scale without screwing it up.

I think there is a lot of truth in the OP's statement. It has a lot to do with open market vs closed market keeping companies smart and healthy. GW's decisions are based on the idea that they still believe they are number 1 despite other companies growing influence. I believe what is keeping Warmahordes lean and mean is that they still understand there are rivals that will take them out, like Malifaux or Infinity. This is keeping their prices in check, their models and factions focused and well done for the most part, their rules tight, and they make every attempt to keep communities happy. This is why I believe that GW is on the edge of a fall, is that they aren't competing, but just being a lump.

This is mirrored in historicals from what I've seen. You can use everything from one company, keep your models from one company and use rules from another or buy models from all over and pick what ever rule set fits your fancy that day. This means that they are always competing for your cash on every level and they can choose how to compete for your cash. They can release rules and/or models.

All that said, I don't believe that Sci-Fi/Fantasy grows monster companies just because the settings can be restrictive. A lot of factors went into making GW the lone wolf like Pokemon and LotR bubble. This perfect storm is unlikely to happen again in the near future with the growing presence of tabletop games in the popular media giving more of a buffer to companies to weather harsh times.

Well put fellas..

GW's dominance came from having a large retail chain and publishing business grown on the history of selling a wide variety of games, including third party, licensed and self-published.

The move to WH/40K has not long term been successful. The company has not grown for 10 years and has been bumping along for the past five.

Of course they are still very big but they could fall, or they could diversify and grow.

Is historical gaming a niche?


Given that there are three monthly Historical wargaming magazines in the high street shops, it must be a pretty big niche. Compared to one 'GW Monthly Catalogue'.

Also consider the number of historical based wargames shows, almost one a week in the UK...

Its not a niche. Its a bigger, but more diverse market than the GW Hobby. If you consider my small club in rural Ireland with ten members, only four have actively ever played GW games, and of them, only two still play. The rest are historical players.

I go to shows in the UK and Europe with the Battlegroup demo games and Im still amazed at how big and diverse the hobby is. Its so much richer outside the false constraints of the GW Hobby.


And thats why no one company can rule it, as no one company can make everything that people want.

Big P wrote:
Is historical gaming a niche?

And thats why no one company can rule it, as no one company can make everything that people want.

Long term, I'd agree. Short term (even ten years is not that long) there are certainly big and small players. Steve Jackson used to be reasonably big news, but now his cash cow (Munchkin) is a fringe game, GURPS is fairly dead, and the biggest news from that company is the re-re-re-release of Ogre, which is almost as old as I am. That old game gained popularity because it was a good wargame for $3... that he now expects to sell for $100. Good luck with that one Steve. I'm sure everyone on your website will buy a copy.

Similar fashion: SPI, Avalon Hill, TSR all had their boom and bust days.

So, yes, the hobby is the hobby, but there is no doubt that the growh of fantasy and sf has pretty well left historicals in the dust. I love historicals, but that doesn't change my view.

I don't think it's fair to say that Sci Fi/Fantasy wargaming is controlled by "evil empires". At the end of the day Privateer Press and Wyrd are a business, just as Battlefront and Warlord Games are. The aforementioned companies want my money, exclusively if they can manage it, as they want to make a profit.

I will cheerfully admit that I've never touched a historical wargame, even though I've wanted to, so my perceptions may be off.

Zond wrote:
I don't think it's fair to say that Sci Fi/Fantasy wargaming is controlled by "evil empires". At the end of the day Privateer Press and Wyrd are a business, just as Battlefront and Warlord Games are. The aforementioned companies want my money, exclusively if they can manage it, as they want to make a profit.

I will cheerfully admit that I've never touched a historical wargame, even though I've wanted to, so my perceptions may be off.

I think the point made by LuciusAR is appropriate here. You can't copyright historical periods. Now, granted, you can't copyright fantasy or SF as a whole, but you certainly can copyright Faerun, the World of Greyhawk, the Imperium of Man, the Warhammer Old World, etc. That is meaningful. Many people buy into a fantasy universe, and have such an investment in it that they keep buying, even if it craps out.

While GW created some good products, it is fair to say that they dropped their share of stink bombs on the gaming community over the years, that were purchased only because of the name of the company. When such business 'good will' gets big enough, it can be very hard to compete with, however good your product may be.

So is the implication that a copyrightable world creates an "evil empire"? What about when Battlefront made mistakes with their community? Did they enter the realm of "evil empire"?

I guess I'm just confused. There are plenty of generic rulesets allowing you to make up your own entire sci fi or fantasy background and represent it however you please. Granted more people like to buy in to a prebuilt fictional universe, probably to get the most out of their hobby time, but the option is there.

It is the desire to become an evil empire that defines it as evil.

It is the capability of making a monopoly that determines if the empire can be successful.

Battlefront failed in their attempt to become an evil empire, because players told them to go and stuff themselves.

The OP states that the SF/Fantasy companies spend billions of dollars in promoting their product. Even if we allow for hyperbole and adjust billions to millions, the statement is just not true.

GW does not spend money on advertising. There is the WD which you buy for 10$ and their website. Thats it. Privateer is the same. GW does have a chain of stores, but only in numbers that are meaningful in the UK as far as making any kind of presence known to the general public.

I like historical games as well as SF/F so I am not biased against either. I think historical games are not as popular with young people because unfortunately they do not seem to capture the imagination of young people. Now this is hard to understand if you are an avid historical gamer and are aware of all the fantastic variety of armies throughout the ages, but most young people dont fall into this category.

Locally there is a historical wargaming club but it is very hard to find information about it and you could live in this town 20 years and never hear of it. I dont know if this is the usual case for historical wargame clubs but it does not help make the hobby stronger.

Another problem with growing the historical wargame niche is getting retailers to stock product. The local game store wont stock even FoW.

JWhex wrote:
I like historical games as well as SF/F so I am not biased against either. I think historical games are not as popular with young people because unfortunately they do not seem to capture the imagination of young people. Now this is hard to understand if you are an avid historical gamer and are aware of all the fantastic variety of armies throughout the ages, but most young people dont fall into this category.

Largely, I think, because fantasy is more escapist. Young children are weaned on fairy tales, which are both fantasy and the ultimate escapist fiction, and the present crop of young people are never really introduced to history as a matter of course, as was done when I was young.

Let's face it. There is something fascinating about an elf wizard-lord with a glowing sword that talks and slices dragons in half, and a staff that levels the enemy en masse with fireballs, that is just not equated by a WWII soldier with a panzerfaust, even though that panzerfaust is every bit as powerfull as the staff of fireballs; it does kill tanks, after all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JWhex wrote:
The OP states that the SF/Fantasy companies spend billions of dollars in promoting their product. Even if we allow for hyperbole and adjust billions to millions, the statement is just not true.

Bear in mind that I did not write the OP. Rather, it is a quote from another gaming site - a yahoo grouo.

However, WD is only advertising anymore. It really serves no other function. Note how the shiny new army always wins in the bat reps? It is well polished, but it is advertising, pure and simple, and it is not cheap to produce.

I think there's a few reasons why historical wargaming just isn't as popular. Sci fi/fantasy will always be more popular. People enjoy escapism, and anything based on real life just simply wont be as gripping in that sense even if the historical narrative is.

Historical wargaming also requires research to some degree, that many, myself included, just might not want to do with our free time.

Until relatively recently, there's been a lack of easy entry into the historical side of things. Only now are we seeing starter boxes.

I think there's also a perception that historical wargamers are older, more curmudgeonly folks. All my experiences reinforce that perception, which of course is a stereotype. However just as sci fi/fantasy wargaming suffers the unwashed and unsociable stereotypes, so too does historical wargaming suffer the old, nitpicky, unapproachable stereotypes.

Zond wrote:

I think there's also a perception that historical wargamers are older, more curmudgeonly folks. All my experiences reinforce that perception, which of course is a stereotype. However just as sci fi/fantasy wargaming suffers the unwashed and unsociable stereotypes, so too does historical wargaming suffer the old, nitpicky, unapproachable stereotypes.

ROFLMAO!!!

Reminds me of a guy who told me he didn't want to get into Napoleonics because he was deathly afraid of having some 300 pound grognard standing two inches from his face at a convention and screaming at him because his Chasseur's of the Crown Prince's Great Nephew's Guard were painted with pale, light mauve facings, instead of the appropriate light, pale mauve...

Sadly I've met the stereotype, who complained I was painting a figure in scarlet uniform that went out of date a year or two before the time period I was supposed to represent.

Zond wrote:
Sadly I've met the stereotype, who complained I was painting a figure in scarlet uniform that went out of date a year or two before the time period I was supposed to represent.

That stereotype of the historical gamer does exist but I think is rapidly fading. It is quite literally dying out as it tended to be older gamers who behaved that way, many of whom have now gone.

It did seem more prevalent with Napoleonics though. Before Battlefront catapulted WW2 to the top of historical gaming charts, The Napoleonic wars was by far the most popular period in historical gaming and sadly was dominated by men in cardigans smoking pipes. It was also mainly for people who had their own dedicated gaming sheds and played on 20 foot boards and games would be played over a period of week and months.

Over the last 15 years or so we are seeing more historical rules designed for play over 2-3 hours, which has brought in allot of more ‘casual’ gamers. Who have a genuine love for the period, but also want to play a game to completion in a single evening and on the whole are not as anal regarding rivet counting and epilate painting as many older gamers.

I'm hoping that more tight and competitive rulesets appear. I know it's extremely difficult to provide a balance to historical conflicts at times, but gentleman's agreements aren't for everyone.

I went so far once as to suggest that Napoleonic prepaints would not be a bad idea... and nearly got stoned.

Granted, prepaints tend not to look that great, but I have always spruced mine up with a little highlighting and a wash, whcih improves them immensely. Also, it might get people to take a look at a hobby which, as you point out, is now dying along with its adherents.

My god some people on hear dont half talk alot of balls. Reminds me why I dont play 40k anymore...


Please dont try and say that a part of the hobby that you clearly dont know too well is 'dying out'. Such rot.

Historical gaming is thriving and growing. Hence why is a UK newsagent you can get three monthly historical wargaming mags... How many Fantasy/Sci-Fi ones can you get again?

Or consider how many historical wargame shows there are in the UK alone, almost one a week... How many Sci-Fi/Fantasy shows are there?

I have been gaming all forms of this hobby for 30 years next year having started with Warhammer Fantasy in 1984. All I have seen is each side grow and expand. In the last 10-15 years the explosion on the historical side is amazing, thanks in no small part to the growth of the hobby online and how it brings both gamers and makers together. Thankfully I still play all forms of wargaming, historical, fantasy and sci-fi. I play how I want, and what I want.

Thankfully the stereotyped Historical gamer is dying out... Though he has been replaced by the Sci-Fi version. I remember being told by a GW staff member (who didnt know I worked for GW at the time) that my Space Marines were painted incorrectly... I had to point out to him that before he was in long trousers, Dark Angels were dressed in black... All parts of the hobby have snobs and grognards. The sci-fi/fantasy ones are just as bad... If not worse as they treat GW backgrounds as some sort of factual bible. You will always have people like that in hobbies such as ours. You get them in all walks of life.


Im off to Salute next week, a historical wargames show that takes up the Excel centre in London... For a dying hobby, it cant be too bad if one wargames club can hire the Excel centre for a day...

Dying hobby, sorry but what a pile of doggy do. People have been telling me its dying since I started playing 30 years ago... Thats a bloody drawn out death.


Anyway, Im gonna go back to counting the rivets on my 38ts instead of reading this twaddle...

I would never class historical wargaming as "dying". The wargaming hobby as a whole is growing, so everyone benefits.

However, I don't know if I'd class Salute as a historical wargames show. It's a pretty diverse event. As to the Warlords themselves, no idea what they favour.

Yep, with the dawn of plastic Historical Gaming is bigger then ever, Like P I've been doing this more years then I care to remember and I can never recal a period when we had so many quality rules and figures being produced. Over the last 5 years or so I would say there has been a massive expansion.

I live in a fairly small city in a rural county in England, 100s of miles from London and in the area around me there are at least 3 Wargames Clubs, count in Sci/Fi clubs and there are 5. The county I live in supports 2 major wargames shows.

Dying? I really don't think so............