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I'm going to be blunt on this. If you love the emporer you better get ready to scream heresy.
Which is worse; chaos or the imperium?
Imperium: Worships corpse of a living god, thousands of souls sacrificed to said corpse every DAY. Burning of "hereticals". Live executions if troops want to retreat. Fanatical devotion is okay, as long as its the holy corpse. People who will take your skull and turn it into a spy device. People who will take your body and make it a automaton. People who replace their own body with technology. People who will give you a insano mask and electric whip fingernails. Unless you live on planet Gum-drop Sugerland you will face constant invasions, Nurgles Rot, and a healthy dose of poverty. If your in the Sisters of Battle you will be killed in grotesque ways, by your allies. Dont ever be a conscript. Ever.
Chaos: If there is nothing good on television the gods will turn you into spawn. If you worship Nurgle say goodbye to your intestines. If you worship Slaanesh you will have the life of a rockstar, did I mention the voice box? Ever wanted a mouth on your toe? No? Well your god gave one to you. If you somehow appease the gods you will be immortal. It took 13 crusades to finally not fail. If your a traitor primarch who isn't Angron do something beside petty revenge. Too many mutations and your spawn. Your flying mounts are limited to a magic carpet or a giant fly. Wave goodbye to dignity as you fight beside menacing pink beaked blobs of doom. Tens of people worship Malal. One of the last eldar gods now currently in Nurgles hands (At least it's better than Slaanesh.).
All I can think of, feel free to add your own. With all of this, which REALLY is better?
My armies: Tyranid, Nurgle/Dark Eldar and (hopefully) a squig one.
Phonics wrote: I'm going to be blunt on this. If you love the emporer you better get ready to scream heresy.
Which is worse; chaos or the imperium?
Imperium: Worships corpse of a living god, thousands of souls sacrificed to said corpse every DAY. Burning of "hereticals". Live executions if troops want to retreat. Fanatical devotion is okay, as long as its the holy corpse. People who will take your skull and turn it into a spy device. People who will take your body and make it a automaton. People who replace their own body with technology. People who will give you a insano mask and electric whip fingernails. Unless you live on planet Gum-drop Sugerland you will face constant invasions, Nurgles Rot, and a healthy dose of poverty. If your in the Sisters of Battle you will be killed in grotesque ways, by your allies. Dont ever be a conscript. Ever.
Chaos: If there is nothing good on television the gods will turn you into spawn. If you worship Nurgle say goodbye to your intestines. If you worship Slaanesh you will have the life of a rockstar, did I mention the voice box? Ever wanted a mouth on your toe? No? Well your god gave one to you. If you somehow appease the gods you will be immortal. It took 13 crusades to finally not fail. If your a traitor primarch who isn't Angron do something beside petty revenge. Too many mutations and your spawn. Your flying mounts are limited to a magic carpet or a giant fly. Wave goodbye to dignity as you fight beside menacing pink beaked blobs of doom. Tens of people worship Malal. One of the last eldar gods now currently in Nurgles hands (At least it's better than Slaanesh.).
All I can think of, feel free to add your own. With all of this, which REALLY is better?
I feel as though you CAN be safer in the Imperium. I'm sure there are plenty of backwater farming colonies that war rarely if ever touches.
Chaos is a lot more dangerous, for obvious reasons. If you're not going up the ladder, you're going down it.
- 1000; 3-2-0
2013/03/31 05:36:49
Subject: Re:Is the imperium REALLY safer than chaos?
If you live on Macragge, or most of the planets in the Ultramar sector, it's pretty safe, for example. (only, what? 2 major incursions in the past few millenium? Pretty safe to me.)
warboss wrote: Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
Phonics wrote: I'm going to be blunt on this. If you love the emporer you better get ready to scream heresy.
Which is worse; chaos or the imperium?
Imperium: Worships corpse of a living god, thousands of souls sacrificed to said corpse every DAY. Burning of "hereticals". Live executions if troops want to retreat. Fanatical devotion is okay, as long as its the holy corpse. People who will take your skull and turn it into a spy device. People who will take your body and make it a automaton. People who replace their own body with technology. People who will give you a insano mask and electric whip fingernails. Unless you live on planet Gum-drop Sugerland you will face constant invasions, Nurgles Rot, and a healthy dose of poverty. If your in the Sisters of Battle you will be killed in grotesque ways, by your allies. Dont ever be a conscript. Ever.
Chaos: If there is nothing good on television the gods will turn you into spawn. If you worship Nurgle say goodbye to your intestines. If you worship Slaanesh you will have the life of a rockstar, did I mention the voice box? Ever wanted a mouth on your toe? No? Well your god gave one to you. If you somehow appease the gods you will be immortal. It took 13 crusades to finally not fail. If your a traitor primarch who isn't Angron do something beside petty revenge. Too many mutations and your spawn. Your flying mounts are limited to a magic carpet or a giant fly. Wave goodbye to dignity as you fight beside menacing pink beaked blobs of doom. Tens of people worship Malal. One of the last eldar gods now currently in Nurgles hands (At least it's better than Slaanesh.).
All I can think of, feel free to add your own. With all of this, which REALLY is better?
Imperium; 99.9% of the Imperium(probably going to be pushing 98.9%) of planets/conflicts hardly involves the full force of chaos, neither do they all involve any major waaaghs, tyranid incursions, eldar raids or anythign really
The Imperium is definitely safer for the average person. Each of the various chaos gods demands things which deny the safety of the average citizen (blood sacrifice, spreading disease, constnat plotting and rebellion, victims for increasingly disturbing levels of sadistic hedonism, etc); meanwhile the Imperium as a whole demands only two things-- worship the Emperor and pay your goddamned taxes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/31 07:07:15
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Phonics wrote: I'm going to be blunt on this. If you love the emporer you better get ready to scream heresy.
Which is worse; chaos or the imperium?
Imperium: Worships corpse of a living god, thousands of souls sacrificed to said corpse every DAY. Burning of "hereticals". Live executions if troops want to retreat. Fanatical devotion is okay, as long as its the holy corpse. People who will take your skull and turn it into a spy device. People who will take your body and make it a automaton. People who replace their own body with technology. People who will give you a insano mask and electric whip fingernails. Unless you live on planet Gum-drop Sugerland you will face constant invasions, Nurgles Rot, and a healthy dose of poverty. If your in the Sisters of Battle you will be killed in grotesque ways, by your allies. Dont ever be a conscript. Ever.
Chaos: If there is nothing good on television the gods will turn you into spawn. If you worship Nurgle say goodbye to your intestines. If you worship Slaanesh you will have the life of a rockstar, did I mention the voice box? Ever wanted a mouth on your toe? No? Well your god gave one to you. If you somehow appease the gods you will be immortal. It took 13 crusades to finally not fail. If your a traitor primarch who isn't Angron do something beside petty revenge. Too many mutations and your spawn. Your flying mounts are limited to a magic carpet or a giant fly. Wave goodbye to dignity as you fight beside menacing pink beaked blobs of doom. Tens of people worship Malal. One of the last eldar gods now currently in Nurgles hands (At least it's better than Slaanesh.).
All I can think of, feel free to add your own. With all of this, which REALLY is better?
Imperium; 99.9% of the Imperium(probably going to be pushing 98.9%) of planets/conflicts hardly involves the full force of chaos, neither do they all involve any major waaaghs, tyranid incursions, eldar raids or anythign really
Pretty much this. It's very rare that any of the major players in the galaxy should come down on a specific planet or system in significant force.
Just as an example, before Snagrod and his WAAAGH! came to Rynn's World, the Crimson Fist's most hated enemy were the Scythians. Ever heard of them? Didn't think so. For the average Imperial citizen, the closest you'll ever get to the Archenemy is in stories and myths.
Imperium, you can live a life time of peace on 99% of Imperial planets. Never to be bothered by any major powers or Imperial organizations.
The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!
If we turn the question around to what is safter to be a "Soldier" in, i might point to Chaos as your means of survival can be...odd, while in the imperium you get handed a paper board west and a laser pointer.
Melissia wrote: The Imperium is definitely safer for the average person. Each of the various chaos gods demands things which deny the safety of the average citizen (blood sacrifice, spreading disease, constnat plotting and rebellion, victims for increasingly disturbing levels of sadistic hedonism, etc); meanwhile the Imperium as a whole demands only two things-- worship the Emperor and pay your goddamned taxes.
This.
Adding to that, the instances we have of chaos-worshipping cultures and their regimes are such brutal totalitarian nightmares they make the Imperium look downright friendly and tolerant by comparison. Think Combine turned up to 11, with the whole "daemons and warpcraft everywhere" thing thrown in for good measure.
Cultists are definitely not treated well. The best you can get is part of a religious cult, but as soon as the action starts, the greater powers tend to abuse you literally to death. Be it as a heavily abused and mutilated slave, or little more than cattle. Even if you are let loose in combat, you are nothing but a poorly armed wall of meat which the CSM use as a shield. Sure, you have a chance to earn glory with the chaos gods, but wow is that chance slim. You're really nothing but a plaything. And even if you do get the attention of the gods, as mentioned before, the results are not always what you hoped for I really need to take my knife to my cultist squads and give them a few mutations. They've done well since DV came out
Melissia wrote: The Imperium is definitely safer for the average person. Each of the various chaos gods demands things which deny the safety of the average citizen (blood sacrifice, spreading disease, constnat plotting and rebellion, victims for increasingly disturbing levels of sadistic hedonism, etc); meanwhile the Imperium as a whole demands only two things-- worship the Emperor and pay your goddamned taxes.
It depends however, Many societies can end up far better then living in the average imperial city. Considering that there is more then just two things.
You will WORK For the emperor (Many planets require your constant work, many will work in places that make Victorian level Coal Mines look kid friendly)
You will be Conscripted for the Emporer! You will be recruited for the PDF, and if your unlucky good enough, recruited as a guardsman. Or worse, you'll be fighting feral orks for a living, or gangers, or whatever the forgeworld production belched out.
There's far more then Worship and Taxes.
One of the greater societies was shown for Tzeentch, The average Q'sal in the society, lives a grander, more expansive life then the average citizen, even though it works a bit off with a fair bit of plotting and backstabbing.
This.
Adding to that, the instances we have of chaos-worshipping cultures and their regimes are such brutal totalitarian nightmares they make the Imperium look downright friendly and tolerant by comparison. Think Combine turned up to 11, with the whole "daemons and warpcraft everywhere" thing thrown in for good measure.
The same could be said of many Imperium worlds, considering what they will do if you don't follow their ways.
There's a reason people fall to chaos, if it was a complete, ed up hellhole nobody would want to join afterall, and if it was..Then that shows just how bad the Imperium is if they want to join it that badly eh?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/03/31 14:40:12
Melissia wrote: The Imperium is definitely safer for the average person. Each of the various chaos gods demands things which deny the safety of the average citizen (blood sacrifice, spreading disease, constnat plotting and rebellion, victims for increasingly disturbing levels of sadistic hedonism, etc); meanwhile the Imperium as a whole demands only two things-- worship the Emperor and pay your goddamned taxes.
It depends however, Many societies can end up far better then living in the average imperial city. Considering that there is more then just two things.
Not really.
You will WORK For the emperor (Many planets require your constant work, many will work in places that make Victorian level Coal Mines look kid friendly)
You can work as a teacher or scribe or selling stuff in a market and all. There are corporations and such or be a farmer.
You will be Conscripted for the Emporer! You will be recruited for the PDF, and if your unlucky good enough, recruited as a guardsman. Or worse, you'll be fighting feral orks for a living, or gangers, or whatever the forgeworld production belched out.
You can be conscripted or even join the pdf whose job is to protect your planet. And the things you say also plague Chaos worlds. So how are they a mark against the Imperium?
There's far more then Worship and Taxes.
and?
One of the greater societies was shown for Tzeentch, The average Q'sal in the society, lives a grander, more expansive life then the average citizen, even though it works a bit off with a fair bit of plotting and backstabbing.
A very rare planet that deals in slaves and soul trading IIRC.
This.
Adding to that, the instances we have of chaos-worshipping cultures and their regimes are such brutal totalitarian nightmares they make the Imperium look downright friendly and tolerant by comparison. Think Combine turned up to 11, with the whole "daemons and warpcraft everywhere" thing thrown in for good measure.
The same could be said of many Imperium worlds, considering what they will do if you don't follow their ways.
Sure. That also happens on Chaos worlds.
There's a reason people fall to chaos, if it was a complete, ed up hellhole nobody would want to join afterall, and if it was..Then that shows just how bad the Imperium is if they want to join it that badly eh?
There are those who fall to Chaos cause the Imperium is hunting for them or cause they hunger for things the Imperium disallows. Not all cause the Imperium is terrible so lets turn to Chaos. There are those who join Chaos out of ignorance also.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/31 15:02:51
Stated by Grey Templar:The Ward of the Codices
"It began, with the writing of the Great Codices,
2 were given to the Eldar. Immortal, Capricious, and most farsighted of all,
2 also to Chaos. Traitorous, Deceitful, Servants of the Dark Gods,
3 to the Xenos races. T'au, Orks, and Necrons. the Young, the Beast, and the Spiteful,
7 to the race of men. Servents of the God Emperor, the Inheritors of the Galaxy.
But they were all of them, decieved. for another Codex was written…
In the Land of Ward'or, in the Fires of Mount Doom, the Dark Lord Matthew wrote in secret, a Master Codex, to rule all the others. One by one, all the armies of the other Codices fell to the power of the Codex, and from this Darkness, none could see hope.
But there were some, who resisted. a Last Alliance of Men and Xenos took up arms against the forces of Ward'or and on the Slopes of Mount Doom they fought for the freedom of 40k."
Conscription does happen but it's not everyone of a certain age has to serve for X years, it will be a certain percentage and the Imperium offers a degree of stability that chaos can't as it is the complete opposite.
Currently debating whether to study for my exams or paint some Deathwing
I love how some people always get super-defensive of the Imperium in threads like this. It would be funny enough if the Imperium were just a work of fiction, but it is instead many works of fiction, with multiple authors, ideas and viewpoints and biases all rolled into one. There is not even a single answer, let alone a real one!
Though guards may sleep and ships may lay at anchor, our foes know full well that big guns never tire.
Fifty wrote: I love how some people always get super-defensive of the Imperium in threads like this. It would be funny enough if the Imperium were just a work of fiction, but it is instead many works of fiction, with multiple authors, ideas and viewpoints and biases all rolled into one. There is not even a single answer, let alone a real one!
I'd agree with you in that I see no reason for defensiveness. Like you said, it's a work of fiction, and one that's very varied in its presentation at that!
With that said, I will grant that the Imperium can suck just as much as Chaos. How'd you like to be drafted into the Guard, stationed with an absolutely cutthroat commisar, misplace your primer, and get turned into an Arco-Flagellant?
Adding to that, the instances we have of chaos-worshipping cultures and their regimes are such brutal totalitarian nightmares they make the Imperium look downright friendly and tolerant by comparison. Think Combine turned up to 11, with the whole "daemons and warpcraft everywhere" thing thrown in for good measure.
The same could be said of many Imperium worlds, considering what they will do if you don't follow their ways.
There's a reason people fall to chaos, if it was a complete, ed up hellhole nobody would want to join afterall, and if it was..Then that shows just how bad the Imperium is if they want to join it that badly eh?
The Imperium at its very worst is a weird Feudal Stalinism. The very best example you can provide of chaos is a planet with a Byzantine upper-class?
People don't fall to chaos out of a belief that the lot of the average person will be improved (unless they're grievously misinformed), they fall out of a predatory malice (average cultist: seeking personal gain at the expense of the people), or simple nihilistic rage (mutants). Alternatively, they join the chaos regime if their planet falls out of self-preservation (as in Traitor General). The remainder are born into the culture (the chaos-worshipping empire holding the Sabbat worlds, for instance).
I'd say it depends on who or what you are. A Space Marine would be better off with the Imperium, a common meatshield errr Guardsman might be better off joining Chaos, sure you ar most likely a meatshield there too but if you are really, really, really, really, lucky you might get demonized and have untold power forever, or at least until Matt Ward decides Dragio needs to kick your ass
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/31 16:22:40
"I prayed to that corpse for a millenia with no response, what makes you think he'll answer you?"
2000 Loki Snaketongue and the Serpents of Malice
2013/03/31 16:23:01
Subject: Re:Is the imperium REALLY safer than chaos?
right lets get this straight, straighter than straight.
imperial guard sacrifice for a dead body of a living god, but because they are loyal
they:
protect mankind
destroy evil
help out citizens every now and then
stop worlds from ending
and way more good stuff
so if you think that they are worse than chaos then your wrong by far,i mean, chaos does nothing good theyre constantly killing and rampaging wildly destroying worlds for the sake of war
space marines and sisters of battle help the imperial guard in their business in destroying evil, their plans of sacrifice and killing idiotic runaway people may be bold but atleast it means the rest of them dont run away to keep morale up
Adding to that, the instances we have of chaos-worshipping cultures and their regimes are such brutal totalitarian nightmares they make the Imperium look downright friendly and tolerant by comparison. Think Combine turned up to 11, with the whole "daemons and warpcraft everywhere" thing thrown in for good measure.
The same could be said of many Imperium worlds, considering what they will do if you don't follow their ways.
There's a reason people fall to chaos, if it was a complete, ed up hellhole nobody would want to join afterall, and if it was..Then that shows just how bad the Imperium is if they want to join it that badly eh?
The Imperium at its very worst is a weird Feudal Stalinism. The very best example you can provide of chaos is a planet with a Byzantine upper-class?
People don't fall to chaos out of a belief that the lot of the average person will be improved (unless they're grievously misinformed), they fall out of a predatory malice (average cultist: seeking personal gain at the expense of the people), or simple nihilistic rage (mutants). Alternatively, they join the chaos regime if their planet falls out of self-preservation (as in Traitor General). The remainder are born into the culture (the chaos-worshipping empire holding the Sabbat worlds, for instance).
This. Chaos is the one-shot-at-glory type of move. If you're looking for basic improvement of day to day life in Chaos, you're looking in the wrong place.
Then again, looking at it from another perspective, Chaos may be the one true meritocracy in the 40k universe, where the way to success is simple; provide results, and you'll be granted power in return. From that perspective, one can truly find complete freedom in Chaos, assuming one has the mettle to back it up.
- 1000; 3-2-0
2013/03/31 18:49:37
Subject: Re:Is the imperium REALLY safer than chaos?
Fifty wrote: I love how some people always get super-defensive of the Imperium in threads like this. It would be funny enough if the Imperium were just a work of fiction, but it is instead many works of fiction, with multiple authors, ideas and viewpoints and biases all rolled into one. There is not even a single answer, let alone a real one!
I love it when people interpret "pointing out poor logic" as "getting defensive". Projection's a non-discriminating friend.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/31 19:18:03
2013/03/31 19:33:04
Subject: Re:Is the imperium REALLY safer than chaos?
Personally, I'm going with GW's portrayal of the Imperium. Which means that life sucks regardless of where you life. However, it still sucks less than if you'd be a pawn of Chaos, for the aforementioned reasons.
As an Imperial citizen, you may resent working long hours just to return to a tiny room shared with the rest of your family for five hours of sleep, or living the hard life of a feudal peasant or barbarian on one of the backwater worlds. You may also resent the overbearing authority of the many Imperial authorities controlling every facet of your life. And you may resent the chance of being conscripted and shipped off with poor equipment to be thrown into the meat-grinder of a war taking place in a faraway star system you've never heard of before. Chances are you won't, however, because that's how you grew up and it's all you ever knew, and because the god you believe in rewards the faithful and you owe him everything you have.
Being accustomed to that sort of life would be the same in a Chaos-controlled society, but as an outside observer aware of both ideas and which form they take, I would know which side I would pick.
Unless I'm a mutant, I guess. Those get treated like gak by both sides. Actually, chances are that in this side you'd have a better life with Chaos - at least those guys don't run pogroms and you'd fit right in with the rest of the wretched fools rather than being lower in society than even the ordinary human.
Chaos is a meritocracy determined by a bunch of madmen with limitless power. You might be the greatest warrior in the galaxy but, oops, Khorne turned your legs into slugs and shrunk your head down to the size of an orange, crushing your brain and turning you into a drooling moron.
Remember that big, d1000 chart of Chaos Gifts in RoC? It's like that in-universe, too. A Chaos Gift is a Chaos Gift, the gods care not if you want it, or if it renders you useless. They will always find more Champions.
The Champions of Chaos that we read about in the stories (Arhiman, Kharne, Abaddon, etc) are those who have gotten really, really lucky with their d1000 rolls. We don't hear about the also-rans, who were nearing the apotheosis of Princedom... but, instead, rolled Uncontrollable Flatulence followed by Limbless on the Gifts of Chaos table.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
Yeaaaaaaah, no. The rest of your post might be accurate, but describing chaos as a meritocracy is just amusing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/31 20:47:39
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
The Imperial Guard make up a small portion of the population-- less than five percent of humanity, easily. And that five percent is only including war worlds and fortress worlds where everyone is conscripted out of necessity.
On hive worlds for example, I'm guessing the percentage tithed to the guard is roughly equal to (slightly above or below depending on the year) the growth rate.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/31 20:54:21
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Think how many useless mutations you can get. F.ex. Khorne replacing all your fingers with small finger-sized chainswords (good luck if you want to pick your nose or take a leak), Slaanesh investing new genitalia at places you don't want that, Tzeentch replacing your eyes with tentacles and Nurgle just turning you into a fart-show. All those would be awful and not that practical.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/31 21:07:14
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
- 1000; 3-2-0 
The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant! 
I really need to take my knife to my cultist squads and give them a few mutations. They've done well since 
ed up hellhole nobody would want to join afterall, and if it was..Then that shows just how bad the Imperium is if they want to join it that badly eh?
Blood Ravens, 1700pts
Khorne 750pts
Space Wolves 1550pts
Orks 500pts
: KILL MAIM BURN KILL MAIM BUUUUURRRRRN
Gubstop urlurk's big un! 7000 points(and growing!) 