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Void__Dragon wrote: I like to imagine that when Magnus bartered with Tzeentch and lost his eye, rather than just losing it, history was changed to make it as though there was never an eye to begin with, and he had always been a Cyclops.
I think you are/should be right on this score. It has interesting impliciations on another:
Void__Dragon wrote: Magnus made a total psychic connection with the Emperor, and was horrified that he deprived himself of the chance to lead humanity to a golden age atop the Golden Throne
His horror was as contingent as the loss of his eye. That is, Magnus was only one-eyed to the extent that he bargained with Tzeentch; but in so doing, he was always the Cyclops. Similarly, he appears to have always had the values that make him regret not mounting the Throne -- but only as a matter of all the choices he made up to that point. The only Magnus that could regret was the one that fell. The only Magnus that could fall was the one that would regret it. It's a pity that Magnus did not talk more with Konrad; then he might have sharpened his ability, like what you (and now I) speculate to be his father's ability, to see time.
If you read that spoilered post of mine, I have thought for a long time that Magnus lacked an ability to "see time" but I think the way you've put it, where contingency appears to be determinism depending on chronological perspective, is the best way to talk about Magnus's "disability," so aptly symbolized by his one-eyedness.
The idea that Horus's leadership was incidental struck me as totally off at first, given that so much is made of Horus's charisma across so many sources, but it does make sense inasmuch as his actual fall, as depicted by McNeill, revealed him to be a rather shallow, maybe even imbecilic thinker. Also, his leadership in practice seems to rely more on presumption than any actual skill. Horus has not yet been presented as living up to his legend, IMO.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/04/02 21:55:43
He could have taken him to Terra, or at least told him of the Webway gate, that alone would have stopped Magnus from blowing a hole in Terra. Killing him is of course out of the question, he needs him for the Golden Throne.
When Magnus reached Terra, his way was barred by very strong defenses that he couldn't breach. He should have realized that such strong defenses must be protecting something important. He probably did realize that but didn't care cause all that mattered was his precious warning that would vindicate his use of sorcery. The Emp told nobody about the Webway project cause no one needed to know. It was a secret in order to protect its security.
Stated by Grey Templar:The Ward of the Codices
"It began, with the writing of the Great Codices,
2 were given to the Eldar. Immortal, Capricious, and most farsighted of all,
2 also to Chaos. Traitorous, Deceitful, Servants of the Dark Gods,
3 to the Xenos races. T'au, Orks, and Necrons. the Young, the Beast, and the Spiteful,
7 to the race of men. Servents of the God Emperor, the Inheritors of the Galaxy.
But they were all of them, decieved. for another Codex was written…
In the Land of Ward'or, in the Fires of Mount Doom, the Dark Lord Matthew wrote in secret, a Master Codex, to rule all the others. One by one, all the armies of the other Codices fell to the power of the Codex, and from this Darkness, none could see hope.
But there were some, who resisted. a Last Alliance of Men and Xenos took up arms against the forces of Ward'or and on the Slopes of Mount Doom they fought for the freedom of 40k."
Corporal_Reznov wrote: He probably did realize that but didn't care cause all that mattered was his precious warning that would vindicate his use of sorcery.
To quote Manchu,after webway was screwed - it was like this :
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/02 22:07:03
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
Manchu wrote: Horus has not yet been presented as living up to his legend, IMO.
IIRC, that was part of the reason he fell. Such doubt was definitely plaguing him at the time.
Yep, that's what I just realized, too -- what if Horus was legendary in the literal sense -- i.e., what if all his skill and talent were ... just mythical?
DarthMarko wrote: To quote Manchu,after webway was screwed - it was like this :
Exactly. and after Magnus was done, he, as a British friend of mine described it, had the cheek to bugger off and leave the Emp to deal with an unlimited horde of charging daemons
Stated by Grey Templar:The Ward of the Codices
"It began, with the writing of the Great Codices,
2 were given to the Eldar. Immortal, Capricious, and most farsighted of all,
2 also to Chaos. Traitorous, Deceitful, Servants of the Dark Gods,
3 to the Xenos races. T'au, Orks, and Necrons. the Young, the Beast, and the Spiteful,
7 to the race of men. Servents of the God Emperor, the Inheritors of the Galaxy.
But they were all of them, decieved. for another Codex was written…
In the Land of Ward'or, in the Fires of Mount Doom, the Dark Lord Matthew wrote in secret, a Master Codex, to rule all the others. One by one, all the armies of the other Codices fell to the power of the Codex, and from this Darkness, none could see hope.
But there were some, who resisted. a Last Alliance of Men and Xenos took up arms against the forces of Ward'or and on the Slopes of Mount Doom they fought for the freedom of 40k."
Manchu wrote: Horus has not yet been presented as living up to his legend, IMO.
IIRC, that was part of the reason he fell. Such doubt was definitely plaguing him at the time.
Yep, that's what I just realized, too -- what if Horus was legendary in the literal sense -- i.e., what if all his skill and talent were ... just mythical?
I wouldn't say that they were - even if it wasn't explicitly shown, I guess we just have to take their word for it, although i think he did a good job orchestrating the heresy - but it seems he wasn't so convinced at the time. IIRC he was definitely going on about the mistakes he'd kept making since being Warmaster.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
Manchu wrote: Horus has not yet been presented as living up to his legend, IMO.
IIRC, that was part of the reason he fell. Such doubt was definitely plaguing him at the time.
Yep, that's what I just realized, too -- what if Horus was legendary in the literal sense -- i.e., what if all his skill and talent were ... just mythical?
Huh? You O.K. bro?
The guy who was mentored by the Emperor, had the most victories pre-heresy, tutored other primarchs, united degenerate half of his brothers and breached Terra was mythical in his skill?
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Manchu wrote: Horus has not yet been presented as living up to his legend, IMO.
IIRC, that was part of the reason he fell. Such doubt was definitely plaguing him at the time.
Yep, that's what I just realized, too -- what if Horus was legendary in the literal sense -- i.e., what if all his skill and talent were ... just mythical?
Well, most/all of his accomplishments WERE while he was at the side of the Emperor himself. After Horus was dubbed Warmaster and handed responsibility, anything and everything he touched was an unmitigated disaster.
Horus was a genetically engineered superman in charge of an army of similar supermen. It's not like he couldn't accomplish anything at all. But from what we've seen of the Great Crusade, he did not necessarily accomplish anything startlingly great. Where is the Ultramar of Horus, for example? Where is Horus's Tizca? Is it a coincidence that no one actually knows where Horus was raised or how the Emperor found him, despite there being so many theories? Yes, he made it to Terra -- and I'm assuming that is no mean feat. But we have not actually seen him being brilliant. We've seen him being lordly but I can't name a single scene that justifies such portrayal.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarthMarko wrote: united degenerate half of his brothers and breached Terra was mythical in his skill?
According to C:CD 6E, he had every ounce of help the Ruinous Powers could possibly give him to accomplish this and, as I mentioned, we haven't seen him actually doing anything to accomplish these goals himself in the books. He's often called great; but we're always told rather than shown.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/02 22:20:27
He was a superman who was idolized by other supermans...Enough for me....
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Perturabo for example....In AE he speaks higly on him....Don't forget Dorn, Russ and Sanguinius....
Also I think only Angron was pissed on him being named a "Warmaster" (and maybe LIon )- that speaks something...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/02 22:27:23
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
I had no idea any of Perturabo, Russ, Sanguinius, or Dorn "idolized" Horus.
I thought Russ trusted the Emperor's decision, Sanguinius liked everyone, Dorn was bitter about Horus being made Warmaster, and Perturabo ... like I said, had huge self-esteem issues.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/02 22:27:20
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
Cmon @Manchu, whole HH books portrayes him as the "brightest star", and when the news of heresy spread, it always came with the notion that "if the best of them can be corrupted"....
Alpharious? Old fluff pretty much puts him very close to Horus....(I don't buy that Cabal crap)
It think someone needs to get that Sang quote (when he was reasuring Horus) from "fear to tread"....
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/02 22:37:32
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Manchu wrote: His horror was as contingent as the loss of his eye. That is, Magnus was only one-eyed to the extent that he bargained with Tzeentch; but in so doing, he was always the Cyclops. Similarly, he appears to have always had the values that make him regret not mounting the Throne -- but only as a matter of all the choices he made up to that point. The only Magnus that could regret was the one that fell. The only Magnus that could fall was the one that would regret it. It's a pity that Magnus did not talk more with Konrad; then he might have sharpened his ability, like what you (and now I) speculate to be his father's ability, to see time.
If you read that spoilered post of mine, I have thought for a long time that Magnus lacked an ability to "see time" but I think the way you've put it, where contingency appears to be determinism depending on chronological perspective, is the best way to talk about Magnus's "disability," so aptly symbolized by his one-eyedness.
The idea that Horus's leadership was incidental struck me as totally off at first, given that so much is made of Horus's charisma across so many sources, but it does make sense inasmuch as his actual fall, as depicted by McNeill, revealed him to be a rather shallow, maybe even imbecilic thinker. Also, his leadership in practice seems to rely more on presumption than any actual skill. Horus has not yet been presented as living up to his legend, IMO.
I think of Magnus as more the anti-Doctor Manhattan, in that he can see the flow of time, the past, the present, the future, for everything but himself. And it is this lack of foresight on his own fate that damns him, and makes him blind to his fault.
I mostly meant that Horus being leader was incidental in terms of relating to Perturabo. But yeah, the HH does give the implication that Horus's reputation is not wholly accurate.
He is said to be the greatest Primarch, yet when Lorgar begins wreaking havoc on his ship in Aurelian, Horus becomes noticeably nervous, and tries to have Magnus play bouncer for him (Magnus who was on the other side of the galaxy, and outright told him to control his own ship lol). Lorgar bests him in a contest of wills telepathically. Many of the Primarchs allegedly under his command sort of ignore what he says and do whatever the hell they want, like Angron or Fulgrim.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Corporal_Reznov wrote: When Magnus reached Terra, his way was barred by very strong defenses that he couldn't breach. He should have realized that such strong defenses must be protecting something important. He probably did realize that but didn't care cause all that mattered was his precious warning that would vindicate his use of sorcery. The Emp told nobody about the Webway project cause no one needed to know. It was a secret in order to protect its security.
Yeah, Magnus panicked and acted irrationally. I know.
No one needed to know? Well evidently not, considering that lack of knowledge on it led to someone blowing a hole through it, lol. Hell, the Emperor outright told Magnus that he was leaving to work on the Webway, and that he would play a part. Also telling him that the entrance is the Golden Throne on Terra would have compromised nothing, lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Corporal_Reznov wrote: Exactly. and after Magnus was done, he, as a British friend of mine described it, had the cheek to bugger off and leave the Emp to deal with an unlimited horde of charging daemons
He didn't exactly have the luxury of staying to help, lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote: I had no idea any of Perturabo, Russ, Sanguinius, or Dorn "idolized" Horus.
I thought Russ trusted the Emperor's decision, Sanguinius liked everyone, Dorn was bitter about Horus being made Warmaster, and Perturabo ... like I said, had huge self-esteem issues.
Dorn trusted the Emperor's decision as well, thinking Horus the natural choice for Warmaster.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/04/02 22:39:42
Horus suspected that much, but Know No Fear actually seems to posit that Guilliman was not, in fact, mad jelly, and thought Horus a good choice as Warmaster.
Void__Dragon wrote: Horus suspected that much, but Know No Fear actually seems to posit that Guilliman was not, in fact, mad jelly, and thought Horus a good choice as Warmaster.
Horus only suspected as much on his death bed, it'd earlier been said how Guilliman supported him and was one of Horus' most trusted advisors.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
Corporal_Reznov wrote: When Magnus reached Terra, his way was barred by very strong defenses that he couldn't breach. He should have realized that such strong defenses must be protecting something important. He probably did realize that but didn't care cause all that mattered was his precious warning that would vindicate his use of sorcery. The Emp told nobody about the Webway project cause no one needed to know. It was a secret in order to protect its security.
Yeah, Magnus panicked and acted irrationally. I know.
No one needed to know? Well evidently not, considering that lack of knowledge on it led to someone blowing a hole through it, lol. Hell, the Emperor outright told Magnus that he was leaving to work on the Webway, and that he would play a part. Also telling him that the entrance is the Golden Throne on Terra would have compromised nothing, lol.
Nothing but excuses for Magnus is what I see.
Its like if the government has a testing ground with fences everywhere and people are told not to go beyond it and yet people do go beyond and end up destroying a government secret device. The fault is obviously the persons for going beyond the limits. But your post would say thats its the governments fault for not informing people about the device.
Stated by Grey Templar:The Ward of the Codices
"It began, with the writing of the Great Codices,
2 were given to the Eldar. Immortal, Capricious, and most farsighted of all,
2 also to Chaos. Traitorous, Deceitful, Servants of the Dark Gods,
3 to the Xenos races. T'au, Orks, and Necrons. the Young, the Beast, and the Spiteful,
7 to the race of men. Servents of the God Emperor, the Inheritors of the Galaxy.
But they were all of them, decieved. for another Codex was written…
In the Land of Ward'or, in the Fires of Mount Doom, the Dark Lord Matthew wrote in secret, a Master Codex, to rule all the others. One by one, all the armies of the other Codices fell to the power of the Codex, and from this Darkness, none could see hope.
But there were some, who resisted. a Last Alliance of Men and Xenos took up arms against the forces of Ward'or and on the Slopes of Mount Doom they fought for the freedom of 40k."
Corporal_Reznov wrote: When Magnus reached Terra, his way was barred by very strong defenses that he couldn't breach. He should have realized that such strong defenses must be protecting something important. He probably did realize that but didn't care cause all that mattered was his precious warning that would vindicate his use of sorcery. The Emp told nobody about the Webway project cause no one needed to know. It was a secret in order to protect its security.
Yeah, Magnus panicked and acted irrationally. I know.
No one needed to know? Well evidently not, considering that lack of knowledge on it led to someone blowing a hole through it, lol. Hell, the Emperor outright told Magnus that he was leaving to work on the Webway, and that he would play a part. Also telling him that the entrance is the Golden Throne on Terra would have compromised nothing, lol.
Nothing but excuses for Magnus is what I see.
Its like if the government has a testing ground with fences everywhere and people are told not to go beyond it and yet people do go beyond and end up destroying a government secret device. The fault is obviously the persons for going beyond the limits. But your post would say thats its the governments fault for not informing people about the device.
Yep - it's never the worker, always the boss, the company and the work he is doing....
Try to tell that to your boss, and see how he will reward you...
I always compare Magnus story with my friend's job story...
He worked the night shifts on a construction yard, as a security guard. In his brilliance (read: boredom) he managed to start a 700T bulldozer and pluck it into the mud (up to the roof)....He didn't know; poor bastard....
After that he was rewarded.....He is even today paying that reward....
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/04/02 23:07:58
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Its like if the government has a testing ground with fences everywhere and people are told not to go beyond it and yet people do go beyond and end up destroying a government secret device. The fault is obviously the persons for going beyond the limits. But your post would say thats its the governments fault for not informing people about the device.
Your analogy would only work if the Emperor actually told Magnus not to go beyond the defenses of the Webway, or told him about the Golden Throne.
Its like if the government has a testing ground with fences everywhere and people are told not to go beyond it and yet people do go beyond and end up destroying a government secret device. The fault is obviously the persons for going beyond the limits. But your post would say thats its the governments fault for not informing people about the device.
Your analogy would only work if the Emperor actually told Magnus not to go beyond the defenses of the Webway, or told him about the Golden Throne.
He didn't, so your analogy falls apart.
False. Magnus found out about Horus through his sorcery and only managed to "warn" Terra through his sorcery. If he obeyed the Emp's orders. The entire situation could have been avoided. Also, the defenses around the Webway gate are the fences in my analogy.
Again, why the hell does the Emp need to tell Magnus or anyone about the Webway?
The government does not actively over the news tell people not to go beyond the fences. They have signs or its assumed that civilians would know not to go beyond the fence
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/04/02 23:19:57
Stated by Grey Templar:The Ward of the Codices
"It began, with the writing of the Great Codices,
2 were given to the Eldar. Immortal, Capricious, and most farsighted of all,
2 also to Chaos. Traitorous, Deceitful, Servants of the Dark Gods,
3 to the Xenos races. T'au, Orks, and Necrons. the Young, the Beast, and the Spiteful,
7 to the race of men. Servents of the God Emperor, the Inheritors of the Galaxy.
But they were all of them, decieved. for another Codex was written…
In the Land of Ward'or, in the Fires of Mount Doom, the Dark Lord Matthew wrote in secret, a Master Codex, to rule all the others. One by one, all the armies of the other Codices fell to the power of the Codex, and from this Darkness, none could see hope.
But there were some, who resisted. a Last Alliance of Men and Xenos took up arms against the forces of Ward'or and on the Slopes of Mount Doom they fought for the freedom of 40k."
Point of the fence is "not to get through "... If you need someone to tell you that...Well....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/02 23:17:26
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Corporal_Reznov wrote: When Magnus reached Terra, his way was barred by very strong defenses that he couldn't breach. He should have realized that such strong defenses must be protecting something important. He probably did realize that but didn't care cause all that mattered was his precious warning that would vindicate his use of sorcery. The Emp told nobody about the Webway project cause no one needed to know. It was a secret in order to protect its security.
Yeah, Magnus panicked and acted irrationally. I know.
No one needed to know? Well evidently not, considering that lack of knowledge on it led to someone blowing a hole through it, lol. Hell, the Emperor outright told Magnus that he was leaving to work on the Webway, and that he would play a part. Also telling him that the entrance is the Golden Throne on Terra would have compromised nothing, lol.
Nothing but excuses for Magnus is what I see.
Its like if the government has a testing ground with fences everywhere and people are told not to go beyond it and yet people do go beyond and end up destroying a government secret device. The fault is obviously the persons for going beyond the limits. But your post would say thats its the governments fault for not informing people about the device.
Exactly!!!
Who had a mark of Tzeench on his back ? Who fethed up imperium hope for a bright future (webway) and let a full scale deamon invasion through, and fled from the scene? Who praticed sorcery, openly violating the edict ? Who begged Tzeench to save his hide when Russ's sword was near his neck ? Who free willingly joined the arch traitor Horus, from a safe distance, EVEN AFTER HE KNOWS WHO REALLY SCREWED HIM UP?
Guess - he has one eye, and does more damage to you when he is your ally., then your worse enemy....If Horus wanted to win, he shoud just let Magnus stay loyal....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/03 06:48:23
The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."
-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.
^ So true, his constant excuses and passing the blame on others is really starting to get on my nerves.....Is Magnus like some teenager ?
I was just re-reading Fulgrim, and the moment when Fulgrim tells Horus that Russ's was sent to apprehend Magnus, Horus goes like this....
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Not sure these fence analogies really work. No one knew that the project had anything to do with the Webway, or in fact that the Emperor was even aware of the Webway. The fences were erected by Xenos, and we all know how much respect the Imperium afforded Xenos.
I can imagine in his mind Magnus was expecting to go, "Hey dad, here is this dire warning that totally saves the day and completely exonerates me. Oh and by the way, here is this awesome little alien tunnel system through the Warp that I discovered, maybe we can use it for something. You're totally welcome, and yes, I am that awesome."
Omegus wrote: Not sure these fence analogies really work.
The point is that a government doesn't have to tell you anything about what it is working on and if they have an area where they are working on something and you blow it up cause you went there. Its your fault the device blew up, not the government for having the device there cause you came to them not they went to you.
No one knew that the project had anything to do with the Webway,
or in fact that the Emperor was even aware of the Webway.
No one other than Malcador and the technicians that were helping the Emp on his project.
The fences were erected by Xenos, and we all know how much respect the Imperium afforded Xenos.
Nope. The Emp is stated to have put in place defenses for the portion of the Webway he built.
I can imagine in his mind Magnus was expecting to go, "Hey dad, here is this dire warning that totally saves the day and completely exonerates me. Oh and by the way, here is this awesome little alien tunnel system through the Warp that I discovered, maybe we can use it for something. You're totally welcome, and yes, I am that awesome."
IIRC, Magnus discovered a webway gate during the GC and told the Emp about it. The Emp told him not to bother with it or something like that and that he already knew about it.
Stated by Grey Templar:The Ward of the Codices
"It began, with the writing of the Great Codices,
2 were given to the Eldar. Immortal, Capricious, and most farsighted of all,
2 also to Chaos. Traitorous, Deceitful, Servants of the Dark Gods,
3 to the Xenos races. T'au, Orks, and Necrons. the Young, the Beast, and the Spiteful,
7 to the race of men. Servents of the God Emperor, the Inheritors of the Galaxy.
But they were all of them, decieved. for another Codex was written…
In the Land of Ward'or, in the Fires of Mount Doom, the Dark Lord Matthew wrote in secret, a Master Codex, to rule all the others. One by one, all the armies of the other Codices fell to the power of the Codex, and from this Darkness, none could see hope.
But there were some, who resisted. a Last Alliance of Men and Xenos took up arms against the forces of Ward'or and on the Slopes of Mount Doom they fought for the freedom of 40k."
Fluff for the Fluff God! 
