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I thought the wards Magnus destroyed were created by the Emperor to protect the palace.

 Manchu wrote:
I thought the wards Magnus destroyed were created by the Emperor to protect the palace.

Could be wrong. Anyway, Magnus efforts pucnched massive holes into the defenses the Emp put in place to protect the Webway portion he built.

Yeah, that is my recollection of the story -- and I think that's what the "fence" in your analogy corresponds to, right? Not the webway itself, as Omegus seems to think:

 Omegus wrote:
The fences were erected by Xenos

 Manchu wrote:
Yeah, that is my recollection of the story -- and I think that's what the "fence" in your analogy corresponds to, right? Not the webway itself, as Omegus seems to think:

 Omegus wrote:
The fences were erected by Xenos

Yes. The Emp put up defenses for his webway portion. Magnus destroyed those defenses.

Tainted fruit from the poisonous tree.

The Librarius Program was part of Magnus' vision for humanity. His Thousand Sons were the instructors sent out to teach librarians how to be librarians. Ergo, anything that was founded on the principles espoused by Magnus was thus tainted.

For proof, look at how the White Scars librarian's philosophy mirrored Magnus' and then look at how the Emperor pretty much slammed the hell out of it in his speech before decree.

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Tainted fruit from the poisonous tree.

The Librarius Program was part of Magnus' vision for humanity. His Thousand Sons were the instructors sent out to teach librarians how to be librarians. Ergo, anything that was founded on the principles espoused by Magnus was thus tainted.

For proof, look at how the White Scars librarian's philosophy mirrored Magnus' and then look at how the Emperor pretty much slammed the hell out of it in his speech before decree.

Hear, hear !!!!

That is in effect what happened. In a formal sense, Magnus himself was not judged one way or the other. For Russ, I don't think this was necessarily the personal matter we fans often make it out to be. Russ after all did not like the idea of fighting Magnus. Russ's concerns, whether they seemed like hypocrisy to Magnus or anyone else, were sincere. The wording of the Edict reflects that the Emperor felt the same way: the problem was with Magnus's vision of what role psychic powers would play in the Legions; not with Magnus himself. But Magnus did take it personally; he refused to see any difference between himself and his ideas.

I don't think it was so much the role that those psychic powers were going to play in the Legions, but the philosophy behind their use.

The Emperor in his speech was adamant about how wrong the philosophy was behind the testimony of not only Magnus,but also the White Scars librarian. We see at one point where Ahriman can see and hear Magnus in what appears to be the psychic grip of the Emperor saying that he had "mastered the knowledge". Later on we see Magnus admit that he was wrong all along.

I can't remember the line completely, but basically the Emperor mentioned that gaining power through knowledge was wrong without first gaining wisdom. That was in contrast to the philosophy behind Magnus which is why the Librarius was disbanded and through that action, Magnus and the Thousand Sons censured.


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Btw, yes I know that Magnus and the Thousand Sons were not censured at Nikaea and that it was said that there would be no censure. However it is basically censure without specifically saying censure in this matter.

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
However it is basically censure without specifically saying censure in this matter.

In light of Monarchia, which likely happened very close to the time of the Council of Nikaea, I think it is an extremely important distinction.

 Manchu wrote:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
However it is basically censure without specifically saying censure in this matter.

In light of Monarchia, which likely happened very close to the time of the Council of Nikaea, I think it is an extremely important distinction.

I didn't have my books with me when I posted that and don't have them now, so maybe I wasn't as clear as I was trying to be.

Magnus had a vision for mankind. That plan started with bringing the Librarius program to fruitation, ie, psykers in the defenders of the Imperium looks good, so they must be good for the mortals. That brings us to the next phase, specifically choosing rembrancers with latent psychic powers to ciltivate them and to have them spread the propaganda of how good psychic power use happens to be.

Now with the decree, Magnus' vision is cut off at the head. Furthermore, the continued education of his second step is now forbidden. Everything that Magnus envisioned as his role in the service of his father is killed at Nikaea. That is what I mean by saying that although Magnus was not officially censured by Nikaea, he got the "f" censured out of him.

For Magnus, the "rebuke" was banning a program he and two other primarchs designed with the Emperor explicitly saying no one was being censured.

For Lorgar, the rebuke was the destruction of a city and psychically forcing the entire legion and the primarch to kneel in the dust of said city while the Emperor himself explicitly said they were wrong and wasting time -- all in front of Guilliman, who destroyed the city.

Pretty huge difference.

What if Emperor only rebuked Magnus? Stripping him of power or something?

It would have been a whole lot different. If the Emperor hadn't given the order for Russ to bring Magnus to Terra, Horus wouldn't have had an order to twist and the Thousand Sons would have remained on the loyalist side.

 Manchu wrote:
For Magnus, the "rebuke" was banning a program he and two other primarchs designed with the Emperor explicitly saying no one was being censured.

For Lorgar, the rebuke was the destruction of a city and psychically forcing the entire legion and the primarch to kneel in the dust of said city while the Emperor himself explicitly said they were wrong and wasting time -- all in front of Guilliman, who destroyed the city.

Pretty huge difference.

I would say that the driving force behind the Librarius program was Magnus with just encouragement/sponsorship by Sang and the Khan. Integration of psykers fit into Magnus' grand scheme for bringing humanity into the psychic "fold" so to speak. Or as he put out of the darkness and into the light (or something like that in his fabricated story). It wasn't instructors from the White Scars or Blood Angels being sent to establish Librariums in other Legions or to train them, it was Thousand Sons.

Now if we look at the preamble, by both the narrator to the chapter and by Malcador, the "Librarian Crisis" is what brought the council into creation. If it wasn't the conflict on Shrike between the Wolves and TS, it is likely that it still would have just been a matter of time before some action would have been taken. However, the difference between what happened with the TS and WB is that the librarius program originally had tacit permission by the Emperor. It wasn't until after the depths and philosophy being integrated into the Librarius program was revealed that it was finally ended. At no time did the Emperor ever sanction the worship of himself as a diety. That was squarely the doings of Lorgar with his need to have something the focus of his desire to worship.

 DarthMarko wrote:
What if Emperor only rebuked Magnus? Stripping him of power or something?

As I mentioned before, what cell can hold Magnus apart from the Golden Throne? Unity among the Primarchs was paramount because the Emperor needed to free up his time to build the Golden Throne in the first place.


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 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
I would say that the driving force behind the Librarius program was Magnus with just encouragement/sponsorship by Sang and the Khan.

That's just speculation, however. Speculation cannot prove the point that the Edict of Nikaea was a censure of Magnus, especially in the face of the Emperor's own words in the Edict itself. Yes, obviously Magnus did not get his way on that day. That is very different from what the Emperor's censure is actually like -- just ask Lorgar.

Neither Sanguinius nor the Khan were particularly amazing psykers, so it stands to reason that Magnus would be the true head of the librarium. And as stated, the instructors for the other Legions came from the Thousand Sons.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:I don't think it was so much the role that those psychic powers were going to play in the Legions, but the philosophy behind their use.

The Emperor in his speech was adamant about how wrong the philosophy was behind the testimony of not only Magnus,but also the White Scars librarian. We see at one point where Ahriman can see and hear Magnus in what appears to be the psychic grip of the Emperor saying that he had "mastered the knowledge". Later on we see Magnus admit that he was wrong all along.

I can't remember the line completely, but basically the Emperor mentioned that gaining power through knowledge was wrong without first gaining wisdom. That was in contrast to the philosophy behind Magnus which is why the Librarius was disbanded and through that action, Magnus and the Thousand Sons censured.

The caution about gaining wisdom before knowledge is explicitly spelled out when Ahriman comes across the slates of the Palace of Wisdom.

The Palace of Wisdom was paved with black marble slabs, each one engraved with an uplifting, cautionary or instructional quote from some of the Great Library’s most prominent contributors. Dust, rubble and panicked citizens of Tizca obscured many of the slabs, but sensing a cosmic order to those that remained, Ahriman kept his eyes fixed on the ground as he ran. The first slab bore the words: without wisdom, power will destroy the one who wields it. Knowing there was no such thing as coincidence, Ahriman focussed his attention on each slab as he ran across it.
Seekers desire power but not wisdom. Power without wisdom is dangerous. Better to have wisdom first.

Those who have knowledge do not predict. Those who predict do not have knowledge.

If you abuse power, you will be burned and then you will learn. If you live.

If you remember earlier in the book, Magnus started the various paths/sects of the Thousand Sons by observing hidden patterns among the stones of the ruins of ancient Prosperan cities destroyed during Old Night.

One part of the book that always somewhat confused me:

as Ahriman opened Wyrdmake to all that he had seen, he too learned all that had driven the Space Wolves and the Custodes to make such furious war upon the Thousand Sons. He saw the honeyed words of Horus and the sinister urgings of Constantin Valdor, each spoken with very different purposes, but designed to sway Leman Russ towards a destination of total destruction. The scale of this betrayal shocked him to the root of all that he was. Ahriman had come to terms with Horus Lupercal’s betrayal, for it had its origins in the snares and delusions woven by beings to whom the passage of vigintillions of aeons were but the blink of an eye. This? This was all too human treachery. These were lies, told for noble reasons, but which had brought about the unintended consequences of Prospero’s destruction.

So if Ahriman has come to terms with Horus' betrayal, that just leaves Constantin Valdor' "sinister urgings". What are these "noble lies" told? If they are exaggerations of the threat posed by Magnus, then how could Prospero's destruction be unintended? Did Valdor simply fall to the common superstition that generally surrounds psykers (that had Mortarion was bleating about so plaintively)? Was Wyrdmake more than just a spy, but instigator as well?

Before BL decided to throw the wrench into the works of Horus and Valdor pointing Russ in the direction of destruction, there were two events that supposedly happened.

1. Russ was present with the Emperor when Magnus broke into the palace, and the Emperor ordered the sanction.

2. Russ convinced the Emperor that Magnus needed to fully be sanctioned.

Now Russ trusted Horus completely and believed in his role as Warmaster 100%. So if Horus tells Russ not to bother taking Magnus back to Terra, Russ would probably carry out that order while saluting and saying, "Aye aye Warmaster"! But, Russ actually tries to convince Magnus to surrender through what he thought was a conduit.

So if Russ was loyally following the orders of Horus, was surrender ever and option to offer or did Russ have a moment that he chose to disobey the Warmaster?

What I like about TS vs SW debates, is no matter which side you take, you can't say they are 100% right...
Thats what I like about Omegus posts, he always goes little in TS favor ( ), and then evens it up with objectivity.....kudos for that.....
I kind of tend to view the whole situation with pragmatic inquisitorial eyes....
Did the TS had a mark of Tzeench on them postponing their mutation ? Did Magnus had bargain with deamons? So what's the big deal....??? It is grimdark IIRC.....

Wow, I come back a few days later and there's four pages worth of discussion generated from the fact that I called Space Wolves hypocrites.

Now let me be clear. I'm not saying SW are bad guys, or that they're not loyal to the Emprah or anything like that. Furthermore the issue isn't whether or not they were technically within the limits of the decree because they were never referred to as 'librarians'. The issue, and what makes them hypocrites, is their attitude. They think that they are fundamentally different then other psykers in that they don't believe their power comes from the warp. It is indisputable that that line of thinking is bogus. Their power does not come from 'the nature of fenris' or however they put it. It comes from the warp, period. The fact that that deliberate ignorance was utilized by the Emprah doesn't mean it isn't there. It's when they go around sneering at other Legions for ever having had psykers, see Fear to Tread, that the hypocrisy is blatant and undeniable. How the 1K Sons or any other legion were utilizing and training their psykers does not effect nor justify the SW use of psykers.

Back to the point of the original post. Thanks to those of you who answered the question. I get how Guilleman used the wording of the decree to allow the use of librarians again once the immediate crisis of the Heresy had abated.

The SW and TS psykers were fundamentally different and the issue does not come down to the Warp. The SW simply aren't hypocrites, at least not on the matter of the TS.

 Manchu wrote:
The SW and TS psykers were fundamentally different and the issue does not come down to the Warp. The SW simply aren't hypocrites, at least not on the matter of the TS.

Sorry, but the of the 1K Sons is where the Space Wolves shine most brightly as hypocrites. There is no fundamental difference between Space Wolf psykers and the 1K Sons psykers. And the issue IS the warp. If the warp as a source of power is considered to be corrupt or to have a corrupting affect, then the Space Wolves drawing on that power is no different then the 1K Sons drawing on it. The differences in how they manifest that power is merely window dressing. Imo the aspect of the Emprah that the Space Wolves most inherited is his hypocrisy. Their attitude of do what I say not what I do is the very definition of hypocrisy.

" You didn't read Prospero burnes? Warp, is not a simple energy, it is consisted from benevolent and chaotic emotions/entities too...
Also check the last line of my sig...and see what RP are considering as the fundamental difference between them and sorcery....
In your simple reasonong the guy who uses wine for cooking and the guy who is alchoholic are the same?

It's not what you use, it's how you use, damn it....

O and there is also canix helix which effectively stops chaos corruption/mutation (example 13th Co., and read "Wolf's honor")....

 Void__Dragon wrote:

There is a clear distinction between sorcery and natural psychic power. They both originate from the same source, but there is a difference, even in the studio fluff. See the fluff behind the Thousand Sons.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Sorcery is associated with daemons. Whether they taught the practitioner something, are directly empowering the effect, etc. If daemons are involved, it's Sorcery.

That's the line in the sand between psychic ability and Sorcery as the in-universe experts have declared.

‘What I especially admire,’ said the Thousand Sons Equerry, ‘is your hypocrisy. You hound us and harass us over our so-called sorcery, yet you do not shrink from using it, shaman.’
‘There is a vast gulf between what I employ for the good of the Rout and what you practise, warlock,’ Helwintr replied, ‘and the chief part of that gulf is control. Only the naive would think that mankind could survive in the cosmos without some measure of craft and cunning to protect him, but there is a limit. A limit. We must know what we can master and what we cannot, and we must never allow ourselves to step beyond that line. Tell me, how many steps have you taken? One? Three? A dozen? A thousand?’

This really is at the heart of the matter. The Thousand Sons have been deluded into thinking they have control over what they are doing with the warp / great ocean. They have been lied to by their teachers and when the time came to turn the tables on them their teachers / Tutelarys showed themselves for what they really where, deceivers.

From pg 519 of "A Thousand Sons".
Phrael Toron's body shook with the force of the power passing though him, and he fought to control it, remembering the catechisms of the higher Enumerations that Magnus and Ahriman had taught him. Power was only useful when it was controlled, they had told him, and Phrael Toron understood the truth of that as he felt his grip on its leash slipping. Dtoaa, once his Tutelary, now his devourer, swooped down and filled him with more power that even the greatest master of the Aether could contain.
"No!" he cried, feeling the savage glee of Dtoaa as their roles were suddenly reversed.
Agonising pain tore through him, and Phrael Toron screamed as his limbs ruptured with the force of the energies pouring into him. His body could not contain such titanic forces and no mental discipline could prevent what was happening to his flesh from taking place.
Phrael Toron threw back his head and gave one last scream of horrified understanding before his body exploded with the violence of a new born star.

No but really, stop using the words of a Daemon posing as Amon as evidence against the Thousand Sons.

Would you rather us use the words of the Emperor as he explained the philosophical difference in the use of psychic powers? He rebuked Magnus' testimony and that of the White Scars librarian which was the whole point.

People get caught up in thinking it was the USE of psychic powers within the Legion ranks when it was the PHILOSOPHY behind the use of psyhic powers within the Legions.

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Would you rather us use the words of the Emperor as he explained the philosophical difference in the use of psychic powers? He rebuked Magnus' testimony and that of the White Scars librarian which was the whole point.

People get caught up in thinking it was the USE of psychic powers within the Legion ranks when it was the PHILOSOPHY behind the use of psyhic powers within the Legions.

Exactly - and add that Emperor was honest and fair on Magnus IMHO.... He didn't sanctioned him and his legion, rather all of those who were part of librarius (don't forget, other librarians were pretty pissed on TS, not on opposing faction) ....

I am going to quote some text to nail home my previous point,

A Thousand Sons, page 354

I hear of men speak of knowledge and power as though they are abstract concepts to be employed as simply as a sword or gun. They are not. Power is a living force, and the danger with power is obsession. A man who attains a measure of power wilo find that it comes to dominate his life until all he can think of is the acquisition of more.

Right here the Emperor in one fell swoop, crushes the philosophy Magnus has lived by, taught his Sons to live by, and by extension, the Librarians as evidenced by the testimony given by the White Scars librarian.

In addition we have on the following page,

All men wish to possess knowledge, but few are willing to pay the price. Always men will seek to take the shortcut, the quick route to power, and it is a man's own mind, not his enemy or foe, that will lure him to evil ways. True knowledge is gained only after the acquisition of wisdom. Without wisdom, a pwerful person does not become more powerful, he becomes reckless. His power will turn on him and eventually destroy all he has built.

Again, in absolute direct conflict of the stated philosophy of Magnus, the Thousand Sons, and the librarians per their own testimony. In a bit of foreshadowing, the last two sentences describe what actually happens to not only Magnus, but also the Thousand Sons when their tutelaries turn on them. And lastly, read what Ahriman says in the prologue and his attitude before performing the Rubric. Basically the son repeating the sins of the father with the EXACT same philosophy that got them in trouble in the first place!!

i like TS and SW, but i cant stand this void dragon guy. he ruins the threads by trying to pick a fight with everyone to prove the thousand sons are perfect. now im probably going to get an angry reply to this but idrc, you just need to cool it a little bit man, this website is for recreation, no one wants to discuss anything with someone who posts in the manner you do. Im not trying to attack you, but seriously grow up. its dakka.

I


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sorry man, im not trying to hate on you, but your posts carry an angry manner, people in general prefer friendliness. i would have direct/personal messaged you but i dont know how.

MonsterofFenris wrote:
i like TS and SW, but i cant stand this void dragon guy. he ruins the threads by trying to pick a fight with everyone to prove the thousand sons are perfect. now im probably going to get an angry reply to this but idrc, you just need to cool it a little bit man, this website is for recreation, no one wants to discuss anything with someone who posts in the manner you do. Im not trying to attack you, but seriously grow up. its dakka.

I


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sorry man, im not trying to hate on you, but your posts carry an angry manner, people in general prefer friendliness. i would have direct/personal messaged you but i dont know how.

> Chastises me for posting in an "angry" manner.
> Makes an angry rant in the same post.
> Clearly never has read my posts.

Sorry man im not trying to hate on you, but your Posts carry an angry demeanor. People in general prefer to deal with a friendly user. I would have direct/personal messaged you but i dont remember how.


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I'm not going to get sucked into an internet rage with you, and i actually agree with most of the stuff you post (which i do read) but im just saying that amicability is nice. no hate no anger.