Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I am very rarely angry on this site.

No may I say something in defence of the Thousand Sons (not Magnus though).

Magnus wasn't the only one who started the Librarian Programme, but Sanguinius and the Khan as well. Lots of Legions agreed to this. It was meant to employ trained psykers as a weapon, especially against psychic races such as the Eldar. Nikea was just one of the preluding events to the Horus Heresy, and everybody knows what the real intention was.

The Thousand Sons were never traitors. Aye, they abused forbidden power, something which Russ and Mortarion did not take to kindly, but they did everything with the best intentions. Plus most did not control their power, because of what Magnus was telling them. Ahriman himself said, he wanted the TS to serve the Emperor again, and that eventually he would succeed somehow ( the Rubric was a fail, though)

Now, Ahriman was a good guy. He was loyal, knew his limits, and did not abuse his power. He led his legion to greatness at the start. But Magnus, so sure that he knew everything, messed it all up, and blames the Emperor, the Chaos Gods for it (that might not be entirely correct)

I state that I'm neutral on both the TS and SW (although I like the TS's shiny armour and abilities, and stuff, and the SW'S wolfies, coz they run around and bite stuff).

If you read the thread, you will find that Sanguinius and Khan being the co-founders along with Magnus of the Librarius department has already been brought up and discussed. That is not a strong point in defense of the TS. After all, the TS didn't just have a Librarius department -- from what we have seen, they assuredly went further than any Legion in this area.

And Ahriman really cannot be defended if you're going to condemn Magnus because Ahriman is just the junior version of Magnus.

Ahriman's depiction in A Thousand Sons and Exile shows a very different picture of Ahriman. If not more wise, he is certainly more cautious and likely to examine the potential consequences of his actions than Magnus.

He still ends up dancing on Tzeench's strings. There's not much you can do if the personification of scheming and manipulation takes an interest in you.

It's more than that. Ahriman exactly parallels Magnus. Magnus undertook sorcery that earned him the ire of his father; Ahriman did the same. And Tzeentch interceded to save both from the wrath of their respective fathers in extremis. Most importantly, both thought they were wiser than their fathers with catastrophic results.

Ahriman did the same when he was a mutating sorcerer trapped on a rock in the Eye of Terror.

His choice was either to try his hand at the Rubric for some hope of success (And he thinks that what happened is preferable to mutation), or have the entire Legion mutate into mindless, ravening beasts.

By that point, Ahriman was already damned, he had nothing to lose. Magnus, as we have seen, had everything to lose, and sure enough, he lost it.

Before Magnus' actions damned him however, he was very cautious in the application of his powers, stressing that he was an Astartes first, a psyker second.

Also, Magnus himself preached that even his own sons should take precautions (Such as the enumerations) when using their powers, the problem is that Magnus felt such quaint teachings did not apply to one as powerful as him.

As I have said before, I don't think Magnus can be understood well in terms of linear time. I suppose in that linear sense Magnus appears to risk and loose everything when he breaks the hexagrammtic wards of the Imperial Palace. But that itself was only possible because had already risked and lost, or rather that he was always, at every moment, risking and losing these same stakes and, in his present ambivalence, continues to do so. If change is constant then it is also static.

From Fear to Tread:



Interesting. At least among other Space Marines, the Space Wolves do indeed deny the psychic nature of their Rune Priests. Not just among the Thousand Sons.

Azkaellon did not understand the Edict, clearly.

Besides, "return him to the ranks"?

That's a... very... bad idea to do with psykers.

Take it up with the Emperor, that's exactly what the Edict did with the Librarians.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
Azkaellon did not understand the Edict, clearly.

Or perhaps he understood it better than even the Emperor.

Rune Priests are not Librarians.

And I reckon the Emperor knew full well what he was doing -- especially regarding the SW's Rune Priests.

The Emperor rarely has any comprehension of what he is doing.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The Emperor rarely has any comprehension of what he is doing.

It certainly seems that way and this brings up one of the biggest flaws in the story about the TS. When the flesh change crisis first hit the TS, certainly the Emperor must have known about it. Magnus makes his bargain with a warp entity and the flesh change crisis is suddenly solved (temporarily). This sudden cure of the TS should have sent alarm bells ringing for the Emperor but apparently he did nothing. If the Emperor is the greatest human psyker ever and it seems inconceivable that he would not notice that his most psychic legion had been cured by some powerful psychic force (warp).

Now obviously, the Emperor has to have flaws, as do the Primarchs or there could be no interesting story. But Magnus curing his legion and the Emperor not even being remotely curious as to how it was done, in the context of the threat he knew was coming from the warp is just beyond "reasonable suspension of disbelief".

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The Emperor rarely has any comprehension of what he is doing.

Sometimes I think you are doing an exaggerated impersonation of Magnus.

I could not begin to fathom what has led you to such an erroneous conclusion. That, like the great psyker Primarch Magnus, I am possessed of an intellect that is more akin to a vast cosmic tapestry woven from infinite possibility and with pinpricks of starlight threaded within, as opposed to the dull, garish and amateurish collages phoned out by talentless cretins that plague more mundane minds is merely coincidence. I assure you.

Ironically enough, what Magnus (or more so the White Scars librarian) preached about psychic powers is more practiced by the Space Wolves than the Thousand Sons. From what we see of Fenrisian culture in Prospero Burns, they are basically nomadic barbarians who are superstitious to the point of violent paranoia. They are led by shamans who pass their teachings through verse, and any deviation from established pathways is labelled "Sky Magic" or "maleficarum", and out come the axes and swords to massacre the offending village.

So it stands to reason that new powers are rarely, if ever, developed by Rune Priests, with most of their studies involving mastering and using the powers they have as safely as possible. A member of the Thousand Sons who acquires a new power won't spend too much time trying to utterly master it, but rather is already in search of the next horizon. A Space Wolf who comes across a book of demon summoning would burn it, and probably kill anyone who had it in their possession while foaming at the mouth about maleficarum. A member of the Thousand Sons would try to cast the spells just to see if he could.

I was discussing the nature of Rune Priests powers with someone the other day, and he suggested that the Space Wolves' believing their power comes from Fenris - rather than the warp - could also add an element of additional 'safety' to the Rune Priests psychic powers (along with what Omegus describes above and the Canis Helix), which seemed plausible to me...

 Manchu wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The Emperor rarely has any comprehension of what he is doing.

Sometimes I think you are doing an exaggerated impersonation of Magnus.

 Manchu wrote:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
However it is basically censure without specifically saying censure in this matter.

In light of Monarchia, which likely happened very close to the time of the Council of Nikaea, I think it is an extremely important distinction.

Monarchia happened +40 years before the council of Nikea which happened near the end of the crusade.

It should also be noted that, in C:SW (2nd or 3rd edition?), it does make a distinction between what a Rune Priest does and the psykers employed by the rest of the Imperium, though this is noted that it is something of a belief, rather than a fact. As is the writing style of GW, it could be taken either way, that either the Rune Priests are just deluding themselves or that they do practice a safer form of "nature magic" than any other in the galaxy.

It's likely both. The most powerful thing in the 40K universe is belief, so in this case the Space Wolves being delusional works out in their favor.

 Omegus wrote:
It's likely both. The most powerful thing in the 40K universe is belief, so in this case the Space Wolves being delusional works out in their favor.

Which makes them superstitious and not hypocrites...
Now if they truly know that they are the same "at warping" as librarians and just pretending (that they are better, only to take down cyclops) then they are "ultra - mega - giga - SE - hypos"....
Third option is that they do draw their power from warp in a specific manner.. Life and death, Fenris lika a conduit...possible but dunno'....


Anyway I always kind of funny how Magnus bull***ed on that meating

Or they're both superstitious and hypocritical.

Their believing it comes from Febris probably makes it safer, but it still comes from the warp all the same (although in a different manner to the TS or others).


Edit: And really? All traitors broke oaths (Fulgrim there too).

And here is also a fun fact when Empy looked at Magnus before the ruling showing him WHO'S DA BOSS...




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Just Dave wrote:
Or they're both superstitious and hypocritical.


Edit: And really? All traitors broke oaths (Fulgrim there too).

And loyalists....:-) Also you can't be hypocritical if you belive what you doing is a right thing....

Right cause? Yes (arguably). Right about their power not coming from the wrap? No.

Loyalist or not, they're still wrong about that and therefore hypocritical, and I say that as a SW fan (albeit more post-heresy).

But how are they hypocritical if they truly belive their power doesn't come from the warp ?
Plainly wrong - hell yes (because we know that is false, they don't); hypocritical - wut ?



Also what do you think Empy told Agnus the blue when he pinned him to the chair ?

Yeah, that doesn't make them hypocritical JustDave, it just makes them stupid.

The plain and simple fact is that space wolves condemned and persecuted any and everyone for utilizing the warp while at the same time utilizing it themselves. 'Do as I say, not as I do', that is what being a hypocrite is.

I very much enjoy reading this thread, primarily because only one of the regular posters was not already on ignore when I opened it. However, thank you very much to those whose posts I did not read, because if not for your provoking them, those good replies would not have been made.


There were two important quotes from Burning of Prospero, and I only know about the first one because it was quoted earlier in the thread.


I am not blind to the needs of the Imperium [the Imperium need to train their psykers], but nor am I blind to the realities of the hearts of men [if you do the training yourselves, you will mess it up]. I hear men speak of knowledge and power as though they are abstract concepts to be employed as simply as a sword or gun. They are not [Studying psychic power is not the same as studying metallurgy or combat]. Power is a living force, and the danger with power is obsession [because the study of a sword and sword craft does not produce more swords]….

The secrets I have shared serve as warnings, not enticements to explore further [you are allowed and need to know some things, but not to direct your own education]….

I have allowed my sons to delve too profoundly [the problem is exploration]… no Legion will maintain a Librarius department [legions cannot have an institution devoted to study or development of powers]. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies [however they are not cashiered] and never again employ any psychic powers [applying still to the marines who used to be part of institutions for exploration/study/development].

---------------------------------

‘Part of the sending off is the choosing of the next,' said Aeska.

There were several men in Tra who were alleged to have the sight like Longfang [These candidates are just hanging around but do not use any powers and are not part of a psychic institution]…. Ogvai had made his choice. The other candidates bowed their faces down to the deck to acknowledge the authority of the decision [Only one of the psychic men in the company can be used as a psyker at any time]. The chosen man rose to his feet to face the jarl…. He was known for his strange, distant manner, his odd bearing, and his habit of getting into impetuous fights that he miraculously survived. Wyrd gathered inside Aun Helwintr in a way that Ogvai wanted to harness [a war leader wants to use some property of one of his troops. The person is not directing his own program of inquiry or development, and he does not even have explicit powers].

The problem with that is that Helwolf was also a psyker and used his powers to aid Helwinter with Casper's dream. The was just not the senior gothi for Tra.

You are however correct in that the Decree of Nikaea only effected those psykers whom were train to be "Librarians".