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Now we all know 40k's logic is...far fetched and quite frankly ridiculous but I'd like to get some basic measure of how it works.
Faith, will power, determination and courage are all very powerful things in 40k and it is because of these things people can do miraculous things. For example Commissar Yarrick can survive completely over the top injuries. Also heroes such as Yarrick or Creed (and probably space marine ones, although I'm less familiar with these) can inspire men to such super human feats that even a battle hardened space marine would think twice before engaging them. Now on with the question.

Where is the line drawn? could someone such as Yarrick survive a bolter round to the face? could an enraged, inspired and ridiculously courageous guardsmen successfully wrestle a space marine? I hope you guys get what I'm trying to say. What can and can't faith do in 40k?

Now Lynata will explain you what are AoF, and why are SoB equal to Marines

watchamacarcess wrote:Now on with the question.
Where is the line drawn?

That is difficult to say, and greatly depends on how one interprets the available material. Personally, I do not see faith working differently in 40k than it does in real life - there is no "invisible force" that works akin to psyker abilities, save for the cases where a religious person may actually be a psyker. So ultimately, the line is drawn at the limits of the human body. Whilst this may seem both obvious as well as disappointing at first, it should be kept in mind that said limits are not as well researched as is commonly believed. Psychology plays a huge part in how far a person can push themselves and how well they perform. This concept has been applied throughout the history of mankind, but in the past decades has come to be regarded as superstition or charlatanism. Only now has science picked up this subject again, showing some interesting results such as hypnosis being applied instead of conventional anesthesia when performing surgery. Imagine that: the human mind, if properly stimulated, can simply "shut off" pain! Rather useful, no? Likewise, there have been studies about how mere thinking affects muscle efficiency. Or how meditation improves the ability to concentrate and make decisions - this, too, could improve combat prowess in terms of aiming a weapon ("sniper psychology") or quickly apply the correct reaction to the ever-changing situations of the battlefield.

Of course, all of this has its limits. A "bolter round to the face", for example, will still demolish that body part in explosive fashion. A bolter round to the arm or leg, however? Here, the power of will can be the difference between the soldier collapsing on the ground, writhing in pain before blacking out - or grimly moving on and discharging their weapon in spite of the likely fatal wound (as I presume the blood loss would have them lose consciousness sooner or later). There have been some remarkable stories about such individuals in RL.

In short, faith and willpower (as a potential product of intense faith) cannot create true "miracles" - but they certainly can have people perform in a miraculous way and thus grant them an edge in combat, just like training, experience and equipment. I mean, just look at this dude.

DarthMarko wrote:Now Lynata will explain you what are AoF, and why are SoB equal to Marines

Still jealous?

 Lynata wrote:
In short, faith and willpower (as a potential product of intense faith) cannot create true "miracles" - but they certainly can have people perform in a miraculous way and thus grant them an edge in combat, just like training, experience and equipment. I mean, just look at this dude.

Aye, instances like that. And when one remembers how many soldiers fall around an individual like that (and how many enemies he defeats) it will seem even more miraculous. And that's why some interprete it as Faith and/or the protection of higher powers. To them it just looks too impressive to be the product of a mere man's will to go on.

Then again, IIRC even with today's long weapon ranges only something like 20% of soldiers can bring themself to try hitting another human deliberately. Most will shoot in their general direction in some sort of hope that they won't have to actually kill. If a determined man meets opponents who have problems aiming straight at him he can maybe emerge victorious despite taking some wounds. And those armchair generals at home who can't understand why you wouldn't kill every last "nationality X" will have to find another explanation. Sometimes it's faith.

 Lynata wrote:
Personally, I do not see faith working differently in 40k than it does in real life - there is no "invisible force" that works akin to psyker abilities, save for the cases where a religious person may actually be a psyker.

Actually, this doesn't seem to be the case in 40K AFAIK. It was observed (In Battle Of The Fang IIRC) that the Space Wolve runes and wards work, because they believe they do. I feel, if you combine this the power of worship for the Chaos Gods, the influence of emotion, and even Acts of Faith; it does appear that belief really does have power within 40K.

Wasn't that just for the Space Wolves' rune priests - meaning, their psykers, in turn making runes act like mental foci? I've not read that novel, mind you, so I cannot be sure about the instances you are referring to.

If it is as you say (and not an instance of corrupting warp sorcery either), it would stand in contrast to how the Sisters' Acts of Faith are described in Codex fluff ("miraculous to the unschooled") - an example of different writers having different interpretations of the setting. I for one prefer the latter, and not just because that comes directly from the studio: "divine magic" just isn't a factor I'd like to have in the franchise. So far, anything "magical" or "divine" I have read was merely psychic phenomena caused by the Warp, and thus had a scientific rationale.
I mean, if anyone could cause decidedly supernatural effects simply by belief, that would make actual psykers a bit redundant...

Spethulhu: Is that still valid today? I've read about such numbers for conflicts such as the American Civil War, but I thought that modern military drill and our "culture of violence" would sufficiently desensitive troops. Otherwise it is a valid point to bring up, of course - determination is an aspect of willpower as well, and in some cases it can be evoked by faith. Jeanne d'Arc, the medieval knights templar, even the modern day taliban are all valid examples for people who have overcome a natural hesitation to killing and self-preservation in pursuit of a religious ideal.

I think I mostly agree with Lynata.
Faith and so on work the same as they do in reality with the exception of things that have to do with psykers. So basically, Yarrick survived his wounds out of sheer dedication and rage and not because he is magic. If there's anyone who's familiar with medicine and/or human biology in this thread, I guess they could better explain things.

However, I get the impression that there is another side of faith and belief in the 40k universe which is closely linked to psykers and gods. The gods of chaos get their influence and power through the "faith" their followers have in them. Similarly, the Emperor, being an insanely potent psyker, seems to also get some influence through the belief of the Imperium in his presence. However the Emperor channels his influence through more subtle and human means then the chaos gods who just summon demons and grant mutations etc. I believe there were some instances mentioned in fluff where impossible things happened and victory was thus granted through a kind of human power that could only be possible through some form of "divine intervention", which occurs due to the vast psykic power of the Emperor.

Now this is only my humble theory and I myself am not big a fan of it. But to repeat the essence of it: Most heroic and super human acts are just manifestations of insane will power, courage and human ability. However, the emperor might have a subtle influence on his followers that MAY OCCASIONALLY grant them "superhuman" insight, courage or power when they need it most.

^ I agree with this, too. There have been some very convenient coincidences in Imperial history. If records are to be believed, there were two Saints from the Ecclesiarchy's clergy - Sebastian and Joachim - who had the ability to "calm the warp", dissolving warp storms and granting safe passage to Imperial fleets, both during the Age of Apostasy as well as the 13th Black Crusade. Granted, such fluff is shrouded in legend and hyperbole, but if those were not just coincidences then they would be perfect examples of the Emperor's psychic power acting through select servants, just as the Church Militant teaches (sans the "psychic" bit of course ).
I'm setting the Sororitas' Acts of Faith apart because GW fluff specifically pointed out they are not psychic powers either.

And then there is my personal pet-theory about the true nature of the Living Saints as "Imperial daemons", conjured by the collected emotional response of huge masses of the faithful, possessing and reviving one of them on the moment of death. After all, the warp reacts to anything from those connected to it - not just negative thoughts and emotions?

Regarding Yarrick, there is also the possibility that it might be a mixture of both the legendary Commissar's iron dedication .. and the Orks' own Waaagh-field, which pretty much dictates how many of their guns work. In a twisted way, it would be quite possible that the Orks do less harm to Yarrick because they recognise him from the stories, in turn resulting in injuries that would not overcome the human body's natural capacity, and thus in Yarrick's grit being enough to deal with such wounds.

 Lynata wrote:

DarthMarko wrote:Now Lynata will explain you what are AoF, and why are SoB equal to Marines

Still jealous?

Every atom of my being is jealous - If AoF can replace bio-advanced genetics and centuries of battle experience...

I believe faith and belief definitely have real power in 40k. That's kind of one of the key tenets of the game universe - the Chaos gods exist because of raw emotion, the Emperor is fed in part by the power of the faithful, fervent belief in the Emperor's protection and chanting the right passages can give even daemons pause (but they'll still kill you anyway). It's weak interaction and unintentional manipulation of the warp, which all of the psychic races are capable of even if they aren't powerful psykers. Not to mention the power that gods and daemons can channel through their most dedicated and willing servants.

This is one of the reasons I am ok with the addition of "Deny the Witch" to the game. The faith and willpower of Imperial soldiers, the latent psychic protection built into the orks, the attention of the Chaos gods, the latent (if weak) psychic ability of even common Eldar - everyone has a reason and a chance to resist a psyker's influence. I think a 6+ is far too likely a chance to spoil a psychic attack from a powerful and trained psyker, but as we're stuck with a D6 system there isn't much that can be done about that.

They can and do, in the short-term where they're important.

DarthMarko wrote:Every atom of my being is jealous - If AoF can replace bio-advanced genetics and centuries of battle experience...

Well, the average Space Marine does not have centuries under his belt, and your advanced genetics are still more reliable, albeit not as diverse.

The power of faith is a fickle thing.

Lynata - that 20 was actually claimed for WW2. But I admit to not recalling it correctly, the guy in question claimed that only 20% of men even fired their weapons in "normal" combat situations. Respected enough that follow-up research was ordered and it does seem those numbers no longer hold true. Better training and a focus on suppressive fire means most men now shoot, but how many actually want or try to hit something is a different question. Much of the real damage is caused by artillery and airstrikes today.

if I may interject my opinion, I feel that there are two different faiths being talked about. Most lay people take faith to mean the fanatical and blind adherence to an ideal. The true definition of faith is the adherence to an ideal in the light of good reason. There is Faith in country, for seeing the good that comes from ones system of government, faith in loved ones that comes from observed behavior and integrity, and possibly even faith in an idea, like faith in Liberty, or the intrinsic worth of our fellow man. That is why when talking about the sort of unsubstantiated, all -justifying fanatical faith, the qualifier "blind" must be inserted i.e. "blind faith."

Now to bring the 40k into this, it is will, not faith, that drives the warp and whips it into the fantastic, insane beings that we call gods. Therefore, any being with a warp presence can influence it. The greater the will of that being, the more influence may be imparted. Now in the case of, say, the sisters of battle.

Their faith is a collective will towards a certain bent. In this case it is the supremacy of the Emperor and his gestalt power. This collective will relates to a warp entity most already feel exists (in a meta view) SO when the sisters of battle orient their will towards the Emperor, he is empowered and his warp presence is channeled resulting in manifestations in the materium, of the immaterial

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:if I may interject my opinion, I feel that there are two different faiths being talked about. Most lay people take faith to mean the fanatical and blind adherence to an ideal. The true definition of faith is the adherence to an ideal in the light of good reason. There is Faith in country, for seeing the good that comes from ones system of government, faith in loved ones that comes from observed behavior and integrity, and possibly even faith in an idea, like faith in Liberty, or the intrinsic worth of our fellow man. That is why when talking about the sort of unsubstantiated, all -justifying fanatical faith, the qualifier "blind" must be inserted i.e. "blind faith."

I'm not exactly sure where you see the difference in the previous posts.
Let's face it, "good reason" lies in the eye of the beholder, which means that the line between faith and blind faith is rather easy to overstep, especially when met with the correct stimulus (see patriotism <-> ultranationalism).
In the end, for the purposes of this discussion, it all means the same: perseverance from willpower, willpower from confidence, and confidence from faith. The more fervently you believe in something, the greater the effect.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:Now in the case of, say, the sisters of battle. Their faith is a collective will towards a certain bent. In this case it is the supremacy of the Emperor and his gestalt power. This collective will relates to a warp entity most already feel exists (in a meta view) SO when the sisters of battle orient their will towards the Emperor, he is empowered and his warp presence is channeled resulting in manifestations in the materium, of the immaterial

Except that the Sisters' Acts of Faith are specifically not psychic phenomena as per GW.
Note that there are some licensed products that paint a very different picture, however, so it comes down to what sources each of us bases their perception of the setting on. In other words, you are certainly not "wrong" in this opinion, but you do not have "the only truth" either.

I completely forgot about that thread where people where discussing that gak about SOB's and SM's. Got distracted by exams and gak that are now over, at last :-). Frankly, I see SOB's as better than average IG but lesser than SM's. Especially an entire SM chapter.

SOB's have the advantage of the Faith powers.

You really want to open that can of worms again?

If you prefer to have weaker Sisters for your version of the 41st millennium, you are entirely in your rights to do so. For what it's worth, I think the majority of outsourced material actually favours such an interpretation, too.

 Lynata wrote:
You really want to open that can of worms again?

If you prefer to have weaker Sisters for your version of the 41st millennium, you are entirely in your rights to do so. For what it's worth, I think the majority of outsourced material actually favours such an interpretation, too.

Just saying my piece of my pov. I find the view of the SOB not being ultimate warriors to be okay and make sense.

The Space Marines aren't the Ultimate Warrior, either.

There is only one Ultimate Warrior, and he goes by the name Warrior now.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Space Marines aren't the Ultimate Warrior, either.

There is only one Ultimate Warrior, and he goes by the name Warrior now.

lolololol. You a wrestling fan, I assume?

Now I had to think of the Rainbow Warriors again.

Me? A wrestling fan?

No. If I want to watch homoeroticism, well, I live in Seattle. It does not, however, float my boat.

 Psienesis wrote:
Me? A wrestling fan?

No. If I want to watch homoeroticism, well, I live in Seattle. It does not, however, float my boat.

lololol. How about the female wrestlers?

It's as equally homoerotic, except for the other team.

 Psienesis wrote:
It's as equally homoerotic, except for the other team.

Oh? Can't admire the female wrestlers bodies ?

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Me? A wrestling fan?

No. If I want to watch homoeroticism, well, I live in Seattle. It does not, however, float my boat.

lololol. How about the female wrestlers?

I think those are just as scary.

clively wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Me? A wrestling fan?

No. If I want to watch homoeroticism, well, I live in Seattle. It does not, however, float my boat.

lololol. How about the female wrestlers?

I think those are just as scary.

Scared of a woman who could kick your ass?

Well, to get really into it, I find WWF-style wrestling to be a spectator-sport that caters to morons, mouth-breathers and the products of incest. Two, I find the level of drug-enhanced theatrics that create the modern wrestler (a mix of HGH and steroids, plus driven by cocaine and barbituates), and the sport in which they engage, rather off-putting. Three.. actually, no, I don't find female wrestlers all that attractive. I'm sure there's a couple out there that I might, but as I don't watch wrestling, I will probably never notice them.

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, to get really into it, I find WWF-style wrestling to be a spectator-sport that caters to morons, mouth-breathers and the products of incest. Two, I find the level of drug-enhanced theatrics that create the modern wrestler (a mix of HGH and steroids, plus driven by cocaine and barbituates), and the sport in which they engage, rather off-putting. Three.. actually, no, I don't find female wrestlers all that attractive. I'm sure there's a couple out there that I might, but as I don't watch wrestling, I will probably never notice them.

You didn't need to make a big deal about it. I was just curious. I don't really care about the WWE.

Yarrick lives because the Orks think he's invincible. The Waaaagh field actually keeps him alive, even a bolter to the face wouldn't be able to kill him.

At least thats what I'd like to think, and given the stated proof of the Waaaagh Field's power it would likely be true.