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clively wrote:
You're assuming chaos mutation is the only defect. There we're certainly personality issues baked right in.

Every single one of them had a single trait that was turned to the max. You can't do that and expect a "balanced" individual. Unhinged is more like it.

Which they gained from the worlds they were lived on or in the case of Curze,; how their powers affected them.

Going a bit further, let's consider Guilliman.

Even Guilliman, the consummate organizer and voted most likely to rule while in school, completely failed in his stated vocation of Administrator Extraordinaire.

He should have stayed on Terra, become Regent of the Imperium and beat the High Lords into submission. But he didn't. Instead he went traipsing around the galaxy "organizing" the legions into chapters and continuing to fight. Which, incidentally, did little except turn a few groups of marines into a lot of little empires which the High Lords would have difficulty controlling at times. Quite frankly he may as well have disbanded the lot and turned everything over to the IG.

Guilliman was a glory hound bent on accumulating accolades and honors. This was a real waste of talent, but completely understandable given that he was a warrior first and foremost. That type of person simply had no place when the Great Crusade ended. I think the virus bombing of worlds was simply him taking out his anger and frustration at his realization of what the Imperial Truth really was on others.

clively wrote:
Going a bit further, let's consider Guilliman.

Even Guilliman, the consummate organizer and voted most likely to rule while in school, completely failed in his stated vocation of Administrator Extraordinaire.

He should have stayed on Terra, become Regent of the Imperium and beat the High Lords into submission. But he didn't. Instead he went traipsing around the galaxy "organizing" the legions into chapters and continuing to fight. Which, incidentally, did little except turn a few groups of marines into a lot of little empires which the High Lords would have difficulty controlling at times. Quite frankly he may as well have disbanded the lot and turned everything over to the IG.

Guilliman was a glory hound bent on accumulating accolades and honors. This was a real waste of talent, but completely understandable given that he was a warrior first and foremost. That type of person simply had no place when the Great Crusade ended.

He launched those crusades in order to push the traitor marines back to the eye of terror or do you think he should have just let them run wild across Imperial space beyond Terra?

And he disbanded the marine legions in order to prevent one man from having too much power.

I think the virus bombing of worlds was simply him taking out his anger and frustration at his realization of what the Imperial Truth really was on others.

Which is what?

Guilliman was a glory hound bent on accumulating accolades and honors.

I wouldn't even give him that much credit, he was a coward afraid of assuming responsibility, he could'nt even face death like a man, instead he was put in stasis so people could worship his dormant body just like someone 40k. Whatever you say about Konrad, Lorgar, or Horus they had no problem facing their own fates or their own responsibility for what came to pass. The only decent Primarch that stayed loyal to the E man was Sanginus, its ashamed that he didn't join Horus.

Which is what?

That the Emperor had lied to them all and that ironically Lorgars vision for the Imperium was coming to pass.

You guys have a bizarre reading of Guilliman.

Guilliman assumed power, straightened out the Imperium as much as possible, then laid his power down.

He is a paragon of political virtue. He is the Sulla of 40k.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

Guilliman was a glory hound bent on accumulating accolades and honors.

I wouldn't even give him that much credit, he was a coward afraid of assuming responsibility, he could'nt even face death like a man, instead he was put in stasis so people could worship his dormant body just like someone 40k.

IIRC, that was done by his subordinates.

The only decent Primarch that stayed loyal to the E man was Sanginus, its ashamed that he didn't join Horus.

You do realize that very few people will get anything out of Chaos and that a Chaos victory will destroy the galaxy, right?

That the Emperor had lied to them all

So what?

and that ironically Lorgars vision for the Imperium was coming to pass.

I think Gulliman was to busy fighting the traitor marines to care about that at the time. Anyway, he probably destroyed those worlds cause they belonged to Chaos.

Manchu wrote:You guys have a bizarre reading of Guilliman.

Guilliman assumed power, straightened out the Imperium as much as possible, then laid his power down.

He is a paragon of political virtue. He is the Sulla of 40k.

He's a Chaos fan. They have deluded view of things. They rage against the Emp for tyranny and yet they are also tyrants but don't rage against themselves.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
From ADB himself:



The Emp has always protected makind.

I don't believe that there was any betrayal between the Night Lords and the Imperium, I think this conversation between Dorn and Curze sums it up

The Dark King P7 wrote: Dom's eyes were hard as granite and Curze knew enough of his brother's resolve to realise he had pushed him far enough. 'When this campaign is won, you and I will have words, Curze. You have crossed the line and I will no longer countenance your barbarous methods of war. Your way is not the way of the Imperium.' 'I think you might be right...' whispered Curze.

After this he blows up Nostramo and goes rogue

From IA Night Lords

No longer did Night Haunter crusade in the name of the Emperor, who he now denounced as a weak hypocrite without the courage to admit that his own doctrines were just as extreme

Appalled by his son's grotesque acts, the Emperor was forced by repeated protests to call Night Haunter to account, demanding his presence for a full inquiry into his Legions' methods. But as the edict was issued, and the slow but powerful arm of Imperial law stretched out to Night Haunter, the greatest betrayal the Imperium had ever seen came to terrible fruition

 Manchu wrote:
I think the Night Lords were betrayed by Kurze.

Manchu certainly has a point about Curze betraying his own legion.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

clively wrote:
You're assuming chaos mutation is the only defect. There we're certainly personality issues baked right in.

Every single one of them had a single trait that was turned to the max. You can't do that and expect a "balanced" individual. Unhinged is more like it.

Which they gained from the worlds they were lived on or in the case of Curze,; how their powers affected them.

I agree with Reznov here, it was not the Emperors design to have unhinged individual like Curze, he might have wanted the terror tactic expert or the bloodied gladiator and designed them thus, but it was their individual upbringings on their respective home planets that made them the way they are. Were the traitor Primarchs sent to their worlds intentionally, quite likely. A hidden world of Sorcerers and Scholars, a World of Blood and Battle and Word of Plague and Death, there are worlds that don't seem to fit, like Chemos, but Nostramo certainly created the Night Haunter.

The World Eaters had been censured before

IA: World Eaters: But it was only a matter of time before the Legion's use of psycho surgery on its recruits became widely known. Following the infamous Ghenna Scouring, where an entire planet's population were butchered in a single night of bloodshed, the World Eaters were censured by the Emperor and commanded to cease the use of implants

It is likely that after the Cleansing of Ariggata the same would have occurred, if not worse, but the Heresy broke out before anything could be bought against them. If the Legions actions had continued and they had been bought to account, who knows what would have happened?

Corporal_Reznov wrote:


He's a Chaos fan. They have deluded view of things. They rage against the Emp for tyranny and yet they are also tyrants but don't rage against themselves.

Certainly don't agree with the statement.

 Manchu wrote:
You guys have a bizarre reading of Guilliman.

Guilliman assumed power, straightened out the Imperium as much as possible, then laid his power down.

He is a paragon of political virtue. He is the Sulla of 40k.

It's the irrational Ultra-hatred coming through. People love to hate on success. There is a reason he was called the Perfect Son.

Kurze never considered himself betrayed. He explained to Talos why he was going to let the assassin kill him exemplified in his famous quote, "Death is nothing compared to vindication." He was a necessary evil in the universe, seeing himself as the weapon with which to purge the evil of the galaxy. He explains that just as he was punishing those who were evil, he knew that Big E's decision to kill him was an affirmation of everything he had done. Evil must be purged and in his role as the necessary evil, he admitted that he too would need to be killed. His murder was the vindication he desired.

I think the vindication he spoke of was proving that his vision that the Emperor would kill him was true.

I think Gulliman was to busy fighting the traitor marines to care about that at the time. Anyway, he probably destroyed those worlds cause they belonged to Chaos.

He's a Chaos fan. They have deluded view of things. They rage against the Emp for tyranny and yet they are also tyrants but don't rage against themselves.

You mean a guy whose life is sustained primarily by the sacrifice of psychic children? I'm talking to an Imperial fan and they love to talk about the Emperor as if the Imperium only misunderstands him and that he never wanted an inquisition or oppressive theocracy. I think Lorgar and Curze just understood the Emp too well, they realized he wanted both terror and adoration, he just wanted secular worship and a more controlled form of state sponsored terror. Notice that Dorn dose not criticize Konrad for humanitarian reasons, his problems is that the Night Lords don't fit into his orderly version of war(neither do any of the Legions by Dorns standards).

You do realize that very few people will get anything out of Chaos and that a Chaos victory will destroy the galaxy, right?

Their is no reason to believe that it would destroy humanity. Plenty of humans live and prosper in the eye. It would lead to change, maybe unpleasant change, but not the end except for the Eldar and Necrons.

he probably destroyed those worlds cause they belonged to Chaos.

So how is he any less brutal than Konrad, Agron, or Pertuburo.

Kurze never considered himself betrayed. He explained to Talos why he was going to let the assassin kill him exemplified in his famous quote, "Death is nothing compared to vindication." He was a necessary evil in the universe, seeing himself as the weapon with which to purge the evil of the galaxy. He explains that just as he was punishing those who were evil, he knew that Big E's decision to kill him was an affirmation of everything he had done. Evil must be purged and in his role as the necessary evil, he admitted that he too would need to be killed. His murder was the vindication he desired.

Its a matter of interpretation, the way I see it is he wanted the Imperium to have to face the monsters it created, both himself and his Legion. He knew that they did not wish to recognise this unpleasant truth and would send in assassin in hopes to end it without having to confront their inner demons.

Again, it seems like he was just saying "I was right all along, the Emperor was going to kill me."

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

You mean a guy whose life is sustained primarily by the sacrifice of psychic children?

You mean the psykers who are culled to him? You know that was brought about because of Chaos actions right?

I'm talking to an Imperial fan and they love to talk about the Emperor as if the Imperium only misunderstands him and that he never wanted an inquisition or oppressive theocracy.

The Inquisition was brought about because of Chaos and is needed. And chaos is also tyrannical so you complaining about that is just I have no words.

I think Lorgar and Curze just understood the Emp too well, they realized he wanted both terror and adoration, he just wanted secular worship and a more controlled form of state sponsored terror.

Secular and worship don't work together, you dolt. We know why the Emp went back to Terra and it was to give humanity a safer form of FTL. Also that video by ADB himself states that the Emp has always protected humanity.

Notice that Dorn dose not criticize Konrad for humanitarian reasons, his problems is that the Night Lords don't fit into his orderly version of war(neither do any of the Legions by Dorns standards).

Its called a change in policy, you dolt. Once the legions of terror have finished their job and secured the Empire. The Empire doesn't need the legions of terror. It needs the legion that enforce law and order and peace. And its funny hearing a Chaos fun talk about humanitarian reasons seeing as Chaos doesn't care about such things too. So complaining about this is pure hypocrisy!

Seriously, empires keep the terror legions on a leash or destroy them and have normal legions do the day to day activities.

Their is no reason to believe that it would destroy humanity. Plenty of humans live and prosper in the eye. It would lead to change, maybe unpleasant change, but not the end except for the Eldar and Necrons.

Actually, if one goes by what GW, Eldar and FW have said, a Chaos victory would consume the entire galaxy into the Warp which would lead to the death of Chaos at the end and all life with it probably.

So how is he any less brutal than Konrad, Agron, or Pertuburo.

And? Chaos and traitors. Do I have to explain this? Also, why are you a Chaos fan endlessly complaining about gak like this when your guys are worse?

Its a matter of interpretation, the way I see it is he wanted the Imperium to have to face the monsters it created, both himself and his Legion. He knew that they did not wish to recognise this unpleasant truth and would send in assassin in hopes to end it without having to confront their inner demons.

Oh my god! An Empire commits atrocities! Its like so many other empires on RL earth have done themselves, right?


Anyway, I don't have the luxury of dealing with further Chaos delusions. I will be leaving for my hometown in about 4 hours from now. I don't have internet there and won't have internet at all until I come back which will be on May. I have to go and pack my bags. See on the month of May, guys! Take care!

To me, the whole fleshing out of the Horus Heresy storyline has the emperor stumbling from one cock up to another. It's as if he did everything he possibly could to ensure that half of his sons turned against him in a massive civil war.

In particular I think Magnus got a rough deal. The whole Nikaea thing was nonsense as what's the difference between 'sorcery' and using psychic powers? It's all the same stuff. Why didn't he meet with Magnus rather than put him on trial at Nikaea? Plus the Imperium carried on using telepaths, who to me are far more likely to be possessed than a trained space marine psyker. Why didn't the Emperor just meet with Magnus, explain what he was up to with the webway and have him help rather than making it into a big secret that someone so inquisitive is obviously going to try and find out about? He obviously confided it all in Malcador but not his own son? Then Magnus tries to tell the Emperor about Horus' treachery and the Emperor acts like a spoilt brat, refuses to listen and sends one of his other sons to murder Magnus? More plot holes than you can shake a stick at.

For me though Curze definitely was betrayed. The Emperor knew exactly what the Night Lords were up to with their skinnings and other shanannigans and turned a blind eye. Then for whatever reason he decides he's had enough and sends an assassin to kill Curze, just at the time where he needs all the support he can get.

The whole argument about upbringing is also weak. Corax had just as tough an upbringing as the others but turned out ok. Plus AFAIK Horus had a nice childhood and led the rebellion. I won't get started on the flimsy reasons for each of the primarchs turning to evil, that's for another post.

This is what comes from trying to turn a page from a rulebook into a series of novels.

Goddamm it! I must not post but stupid posts make me need to post.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
To me, the whole fleshing out of the Horus Heresy storyline has the emperor stumbling from one cock up to another. It's as if he did everything he possibly could to ensure that half of his sons turned against him in a massive civil war.

In particular I think Magnus got a rough deal. The whole Nikaea thing was nonsense as what's the difference between 'sorcery' and using psychic powers? It's all the same stuff. Why didn't he meet with Magnus rather than put him on trial at Nikaea? Plus the Imperium carried on using telepaths, who to me are far more likely to be possessed than a trained space marine psyker.

They were trained and soul bound to the Emp himself. They are tied to him by their very souls. Also, they are controlled very heavily.

Why didn't the Emperor just meet with Magnus, explain what he was up to with the webway and have him help rather than making it into a big secret that someone so inquisitive is obviously going to try and find out about? He obviously confided it all in Malcador but not his own son?

Because Magnus didn't need to know. he destroyed the Webway project cause all he cared about was to be vindicated for his sorcery! Why the feth should Magnus know? IIRC, Magnus knew about the Webway and informed the Emp about it. The Emp told him not to bother himself with it.

Then Magnus tries to tell the Emperor about Horus' treachery and the Emperor acts like a spoilt brat, refuses to listen and sends one of his other sons to murder Magnus? More plot holes than you can shake a stick at.

Here's a fething secret! Terra and the Emp already knew about Horus's treachery before Magnus's message ever arrived! All Magnus achieved was destroy the Webway project and mind rape Terra.

For me though Curze definitely was betrayed. The Emperor knew exactly what the Night Lords were up to with their skinnings and other shanannigans and turned a blind eye. Then for whatever reason he decides he's had enough and sends an assassin to kill Curze, just at the time where he needs all the support he can get.

The assassin was sent at the end of the after the battle for Terra which the Night Lords participated on the side of Horus!

The whole argument about upbringing is also weak. Corax had just as tough an upbringing as the others but turned out ok.

Curze was raised alone in a brutal crime infested hell hole. Angron was enslaved to blood match obsessed natives who fethed up his head with an implant. Environments affect different people differently.

Plus AFAIK Horus had a nice childhood and led the rebellion. I won't get started on the flimsy reasons for each of the primarchs turning to evil, that's for another post.

Cause the Chaos gods screwed him over and he was power hungry. Thats normal for children whose parents are powerful.

This is what comes from trying to turn a page from a rulebook into a series of novels.

yeah, all hail the precious and holy codex that are never stupid, please ignore Draigo the mary/gary stu. He must have come from a novel even though he was introduced in a fething codex! Doesn't matter! All hail the glorious and religious codex !

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

I wouldn't even give him that much credit, he was a coward afraid of assuming responsibility, he could'nt even face death like a man, instead he was put in stasis so people could worship his dormant body just like someone 40k. Whatever you say about Konrad, Lorgar, or Horus they had no problem facing their own fates or their own responsibility for what came to pass. The only decent Primarch that stayed loyal to the E man was Sanginus, its ashamed that he didn't join Horus.


That the Emperor had lied to them all and that ironically Lorgars vision for the Imperium was coming to pass.

You know Guilliman didn't order himself placed into stasis right? That was done by the Ultramarines. Curze wasn't accepting his own fate or taking responsibility. His death was him proving a point, he was so petty and bitter that he was willing to die to prove himself right. In his twisted mind it was vindication.

Lorgar's vision for the Imperium came to pass preciously because of Lorgar's actions.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

You mean a guy whose life is sustained primarily by the sacrifice of psychic children? I'm talking to an Imperial fan and they love to talk about the Emperor as if the Imperium only misunderstands him and that he never wanted an inquisition or oppressive theocracy. I think Lorgar and Curze just understood the Emp too well, they realized he wanted both terror and adoration, he just wanted secular worship and a more controlled form of state sponsored terror. Notice that Dorn dose not criticize Konrad for humanitarian reasons, his problems is that the Night Lords don't fit into his orderly version of war(neither do any of the Legions by Dorns standards).

He's sustained by psykers thanks to the actions of the traitors. The whole state of the Imperium is the fault of the traitors.

Their is no reason to believe that it would destroy humanity. Plenty of humans live and prosper in the eye. It would lead to change, maybe unpleasant change, but not the end except for the Eldar and Necrons.

It been stated numerous times, both in and out of narrative that Chaos would destroy the galaxy and humanity. Plenty of humans do not live and prosper in the Eye. They eke out a miserable existence as playthings, sport and slaves on the least mutated worlds.

So how is he any less brutal than Konrad.

The Ultramarines bombed those worlds (which i would like a source for by the way) as a last resort and an act of war. It was done out of military necessity for the survival of the Imperium and the human species. The Nightlords skin and crucify people for fun. There is a fundamental difference between necessity and sadism.

Its a matter of interpretation, the way I see it is he wanted the Imperium to have to face the monsters it created, both himself and his Legion. He knew that they did not wish to recognise this unpleasant truth and would send in assassin in hopes to end it without having to confront their inner demons.

I get that you like Kurze and the Nightlords. That's cool. However they are not misunderstood, they are not 'good guys'. This is the entire point of the Soul Hunter series. Talos is looking back, with rose tinted glasses, on a legion that never existed. They were always barbarous sadists.

I get that you like Kurze and the Nightlords. That's cool. However they are not misunderstood, they are not 'good guys'. This is the entire point of the Soul Hunter series. Talos is looking back, with rose tinted glasses, on a legion that never existed. They were always barbarous sadists.

Don't worry i'm not under any illusions about the Night Lords being good guys, their murdering bastards one and all. My point is that the Imperials are also murdering bastards. were dealing with two dystopian versions of mankind and I don't think one can be faulted for slightly liking one over the other. The way I see it the Night Lords collectively are like those in their society who had sinners hands, they still have a job to do before they can allowed to die and that's tearing down the twisted empire they helped set up. The reason I like them is mainly because they were the only ones who had the strength to stand alone against the Imperium of Man(though not forever). Their an example of how a few can stand against many.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

Don't worry i'm not under any illusions about the Night Lords being good guys, their murdering bastards one and all. My point is that the Imperials are also murdering bastards. were dealing with two dystopian versions of mankind and I don't think one can be faulted for slightly liking one over the other. The way I see it the Night Lords collectively are like those in their society who had sinners hands, they still have a job to do before they can allowed to die and that's tearing down the twisted empire they helped set up. The reason I like them is mainly because they were the only ones who had the strength to stand alone against the Imperium of Man(though not forever). Their an example of how a few can stand against many.

Again though there's the crucial difference that the Imperium is harsh and repressive because it has to be. The Nightlords enjoy it, they do it for kicks. The Imperium has to clamp down on psykers and heresy because if they didn't whole planets would be lost to madness and suffering. The Imperium may be bad but Chaos is actively, and consciously worse.

The Nightlords didn't help set up a twisted empire. They helped create the 30k Imperium, a Utopian Imperium. It's because they went too far and turned traitor that the Imperium is in the mess it's in. They're making the situation worse, not better. Tearing down the Imperium won't help humanity, it will doom it. They're terrorists, sadists and murders, not the 'brave few' opposing tyranny.

Well said. Since Soul Hunter, there has been a trend in not realizing the bitter tears of the NL are delusional. Kurze needed to be right so badly that he allowed himself to be killed. For whatever reason, some people find that romantic.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:
[He's a Chaos fan. They have deluded view of things. .

Nice generalisation there, I'm a Chaos fan too. Any further remarks about my personality you'd like to make after receiving such a concise summary of who I am and what I like?

What army do you play? I'd love to make up some generalisations of my own, maybe we can do sexual orientation or even race afterwards?

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
To me, the whole fleshing out of the Horus Heresy storyline has the emperor stumbling from one cock up to another. It's as if he did everything he possibly could to ensure that half of his sons turned against him in a massive civil war.
In particular I think Magnus got a rough deal. The whole Nikaea thing was nonsense as what's the difference between 'sorcery' and using psychic powers?

Lol - ask TS deamon pets and try bargaining with deamons....Or even better, ask Tzeench and that deamon worm on start of the book "aTS"....
Also warp isn't the same as chaos, so you do the math.....


“You have nothing I want,” Magnus promised the snake.
“Are you so sure? I can give you great power, greater than you wield already.”
“I have power,” said Magnus. “I do not need yours.”
The snake hissed in amusement, and its fanged maw parted with a serpentine approximation of a smile.
“You have already supped from a poisoned chalice, Magnus of Terra,” it said. “Yours is a borrowed power, nothing more. You are a puppet given life and animation by an unseen master. Even now you dance a merry jig to another’s tune.”
“And I should believe you?”
“I have no reason to lie,” said the snake.
“You have every reason to lie.”
“True, but not here, not now,” said the snake, slithering free of Magnus and turning lazy circles in the air. “There is no need. No lie can match the horror of the truth that awaits you. You have bargained with powers far greater and more terrible than you can possibly imagine. You are their pawn now, a plaything to be used and discarded.”

 Manchu wrote:
I think the vindication he spoke of was proving that his vision that the Emperor would kill him was true.

That and that his fathers methods were just as ruthless.

 Manchu wrote:
Again, it seems like he was just saying "I was right all along, the Emperor was going to kill me."

I don't see how that circular logic offers any vindication however.

That's akin to saying, "Police are bastards, and they are going to kill me." And then going to a mall and start shooting people, and when the cops take you out, saying, "See? I told you."

Or a simpler example, saying "my hand will get burned" and then sticking it in a fire. Well, no gak, Sherlock.

clively wrote:


The fact that so many loyalist primarchs simply went away is proof enough that they didn't have what it takes to translate into governors and administrators. No, they knew the truth of it and realized they were always just a bridge to another shore.

Actually, no. You are forgetting that a lot of the background was laid out in codexes which only had a small amount of text/page count available. According to the Codex SW Leman Russ wandered off on a great hunt and is supposed to return during the end times and fight a resurrected Horus. An apocalyptic, mysterious and romantic way of wrapping up the brief background story. He didnt get depressed and wander off because he was worried about becoming a planetary governor.