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Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Don't buy from them. Send them receipts of other miniatures form other companies you bought instead.

I had too look twice. Frazz? outside off-topic?

Anyway, back OT. Normally, the sight of Australians suffering would fill my heart with joy, but this is a step too far for GW. It's probably been brought up before but is there nothing the Australian office for fair trading/monopoly commision/consumer rights/whatever you call it, can do about it?

We have the ACCC. About a decade ago when I was first looking into the hobby there were a lot of brick and mortar stores around that sold Warhammer and 40k. Then GW changed it so that only GW labelled stores could sell it, or, if an independant hobby store stocked GW supplies it had to be the same price if not more because they sold it to them at practically shop price if they bought it from GW directly. So a box of SM that costs $62 in GW, costed $80 in an independent hobby retailer. As a result, independents rarely stock GW and if they do it's usually quite old stock and extremely expensive. Is there a law to prevent that? Not to my knowledge. It's GW's right to choose whom they sell stock to and judging by the most recent capability for them to ultimately close down all online sellers, GW spend more on their legal department to find ways of legally monopolising than they do on PR and ways of bring down RRP for the consumer.

Can the ACCC do anything about that? Not to my knowledge, as we've said, Australians get ripped off on lots of things. iTunes for example, a song will cost a US consumer 75cents, it will cost Australians $1.99. Even taking into consideration taxes, and foreign exchange, it's almost like we're paying for everything to do with overheads and running the Australian GW stores, or they just think we're silly little Kangaroo farmers who don't understand economics and business.

It's quite obvious to see this is definitely going to hurt them long term worldwide, it may boost online sales for their site slightly, but it will turn away more online sales overall. Losing them yearly profits where they would have supplied the online retailers previously, thus overall profits will continue to lower when so many other miniatures are on the uprising. Obviously their number crunchers feel the increase in price to come this July will offset the loss of those non-purchasers.

As for these other miniatures, I've not heard of them. But perhaps it's time to have a look. Ultimately though I was interested in 40k because of the ease of location to the shop, and to my knowledge there is limited offering of other miniature wargaming apart from Melbourne (12 hours both ways)

I will have to have a think on it, because already beginning to tally a small force of HQ, 2 CSM squads, Terminator, Havoc and Heldrake is in the vicinity of $600. Not to mentioned I've spent probably close to $800 on supplies, paints and the starter kits - without an army to show that stands a chance.

Perhaps something will come of all this in the meantime, and bring about price changes mid year for Australians? But I seriously doubt it.

Kotaku is the video game off shoot of Gawker.com. Which is essentially a tabloid. Hardly the pinnacle of journalism. Half their "video game" articles normally revolve around cosplay.

Australia sits in a giant back of suck basically. GW isn't the only product that is horribly overprices. Its almost all consumer goods in general. It just makes for good internet rage when new products come out.

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=Australia&country2=United+States

This is what I suggest(although I doubt it will ever happen).
Independents worldwide need to form themselves into a body that can speak with one voice, who then can go to Games Workshop and have a stronger bargaining tool. After all, some are either quitting or are just moaning on here. You need to do something guys instead of just going along with the latest nonsense from Nottingham. Gw surely don't expect to have people ordering in their thousands because of their latest sales embargo?
I don't think its enough for us to tell each other just to not buy GW stuff anymore. But I think if the independents went to GW as one force and said "Until you provide fairer terms and conditions for all, we are not going to stock your products and instead will put all our support into your rivals." That is the only way that their sales would spectacularly fall off.
Far fetched? Maybe.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Hardly new news,

and not only folk in Aus stuffer from this behaviour

Just look at the prices people in Europe pay for identical electronic kit (eg games consoles, PC) compared to the USA

the mark up is a lot more than just the extra tax we pay (prices have got slightly closer in the last few years)

companys exploit the market in whatever way they can, it's virtually a duty to shareholders who (legally) are their main concern (privately held companies have more flexability, whether or not they choose to use it....)

EDIT: not that I wouldn't prefer a more enlightened pricing policy for our AUS compatriots if GW really does want to keep it's markets separate as it clearly does

That is because of the USD's status as the number 1 reserve currency. The situation cannot last for ever. The longer things go on with the US printing dollars to pay its debts, the more the value will decline. As has been seen in the past few years.

Is it just me, or is there a real sense of genuine, heartfelt, end of the tether feeling towards GW this time?

Not the usual wailing and gnashing of teeth, but a real groundswell of overwhelming exasperation where people simply seem to be walking away from GW with some degree of finality?

I've just finished my second, and final army for 40k. I'm now moving on to adventures in other games and our local club has migrated from exclusive 40k to probably 30-40% of games played each week in just over a year.

 Banicks wrote:
We have the ACCC. About a decade ago when I was first looking into the hobby there were a lot of brick and mortar stores around that sold Warhammer and 40k. Then GW changed it so that only GW labelled stores could sell it, or, if an independant hobby store stocked GW supplies it had to be the same price if not more because they sold it to them at practically shop price if they bought it from GW directly. So a box of SM that costs $62 in GW, costed $80 in an independent hobby retailer.

This never happened.

There have been occasional indies who have set prices higher than GW's RRP, but that's entirely off their own bat, not anything GW have forced them to. And those stores tended to either not last long, or changed their pricing when they realised that they weren't selling anything. The vast majority of independant stockists in Oz have always sold at or under GW's RRP.

GW have at times over the years imposed rules covering how much stores could discount.

 Banicks wrote:
As for these other miniatures, I've not heard of them. But perhaps it's time to have a look. Ultimately though I was interested in 40k because of the ease of location to the shop, and to my knowledge there is limited offering of other miniature wargaming apart from Melbourne (12 hours both ways)

You don't have to look far. There's plenty of other games out there.

Where abouts in Sydney are you? There's a rather kickass game store in South West Sydney I frequent that sells and encourages the playing of practically everything.

Oh feth I just realized I'm in their photos for the 6th edition midnight launch.

 azreal13 wrote:
Is it just me, or is there a real sense of genuine, heartfelt, end of the tether feeling towards GW this time?

Not the usual wailing and gnashing of teeth, but a real groundswell of overwhelming exasperation where people simply seem to be walking away from GW with some degree of finality?

I've just finished my second, and final army for 40k. I'm now moving on to adventures in other games and our local club has migrated from exclusive 40k to probably 30-40% of games played each week in just over a year.

It's always been that way. it's just we probably do not see it as much in the UK due to GW having possibly it's strongest market here. The further afield you go, the more public resentment to GW there is, as demonstrated by the guys from Oz on here.

I'm past getting angry at GW and I just do this everytime another one of their antics comes around.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Banicks wrote:
As for these other miniatures, I've not heard of them. But perhaps it's time to have a look. Ultimately though I was interested in 40k because of the ease of location to the shop, and to my knowledge there is limited offering of other miniature wargaming apart from Melbourne (12 hours both ways)

You don't have to look far. There's plenty of other games out there.

Heck, there are the banners at the top of Dakka, and a number of subforums for other games.. including the official forums for two game companies.

 Cyporiean wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Banicks wrote:
As for these other miniatures, I've not heard of them. But perhaps it's time to have a look. Ultimately though I was interested in 40k because of the ease of location to the shop, and to my knowledge there is limited offering of other miniature wargaming apart from Melbourne (12 hours both ways)

You don't have to look far. There's plenty of other games out there.

Heck, there are the banners at the top of Dakka, and a number of subforums for other games.. including the official forums for two game companies.

I was going to put your game in there, but the amount of links was just getting tiring

 -Loki- wrote:

 Cyporiean wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Banicks wrote:
As for these other miniatures, I've not heard of them. But perhaps it's time to have a look. Ultimately though I was interested in 40k because of the ease of location to the shop, and to my knowledge there is limited offering of other miniature wargaming apart from Melbourne (12 hours both ways)

You don't have to look far. There's plenty of other games out there.

Heck, there are the banners at the top of Dakka, and a number of subforums for other games.. including the official forums for two game companies.

I was going to put your game in there, but the amount of links was just getting tiring

No worries.

The big problem remains that finding opponents or regular games nights for non-GW games is a pain; I have Dropzone Commander and Infinity, but am limited to maybe one or two games per month, and this in London, the greatest wargaming city in the world. I can play 40k with different opponents seven days a week.

Prices in Australia are insane, so is their minimum wage though, like A$20 a month? The economy has had non-stop growth for the past decade, so people aren't exactly starving.

Although its clear that GWs policies are self-defeating. This is in large part due to the fact it's now being run as a corporation for shareholders, and the greedy finance side wants to boost stock as much as possible before retiring with a golden parachute.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
The big problem remains that finding opponents or regular games nights for non-GW games is a pain; I have Dropzone Commander and Infinity, but am limited to maybe one or two games per month, and this in London, the greatest wargaming city in the world. I can play 40k with different opponents seven days a week.

Prices in Australia are insane, so is their minimum wage though, like A$20 a month? The economy has had non-stop growth for the past decade, so people aren't exactly starving.

Although its clear that GWs policies are self-defeating. This is in large part due to the fact it's now being run as a corporation for shareholders, and the greedy finance side wants to boost stock as much as possible before retiring with a golden parachute.

Have you gone the route that we (those of us that support non-gw games) have taken? Grab a second army of Infinity, or DZC and go to your FLGS or club. set up table, sit down and start to paint. if anyone has any questions or shows interest, offer to teach them the game. Give them a small demo based on the time they have (15 minutes if they don't have much time)... Say, "if you want to play, I'll be here on x day from this time to this time." If people have opponents, they're more likely to pick up the game.

 Grimtuff wrote:
It's always been that way. it's just we probably do not see it as much in the UK due to GW having possibly it's strongest market here.

Yes and no.

Back when I got into 40K (nearly 20 years ago now), the complaints were there, but nowhere near as pervasive. The focus was generally on price rises, but to do with stuff being more expensive (which is simple human nature) rather than being too expensive (which seems to be the more common complaint these days). Add in all of GW's other shenanigans over the last few years (the Finecast debacle, the legal tousles, the secrecy policies, the war against online stores, and the general air of complete insanity) and the swell of negativity that seems to pervade the 'GW Hobby' is vastly greater than I've ever seen it before.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Prices in Australia are insane, so is their minimum wage though, like A$20 a month? The economy has had non-stop growth for the past decade, so people aren't exactly starving.

Spoken like someone not living in Australia. The people that make the news and talk about things like how wealthy Australans are have no fething idea what it's like to not be one of the 5%. You can see this when you have a moron MP saying things like people on $140,000au per year are not wealthy.

Try living here before making claims about our economy.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Prices in Australia are insane, so is their minimum wage though,...

Minimum wage is completely irrelevant. It matters for the things that people [i]have to buy, like bread, and fuel, and beer... but when you're talking about toy soldiers, disposable income is the far more relevant figure to be looking at.

A very large number of the people living on minimum wage are also living under the poverty line. Toy soldiers are the least of their concerns.

 -Loki- wrote:

You don't have to look far. There's plenty of other games out there

Well said. I'm loathe to pin any blame on my friends in Australia, but at some point it stops being wholly Ike Turner's fault, and it starts being at least partially Tina's, for staying. I think GWS has at this point adequately delivered the message about how it feels about you.

I know Jervis says he only hits you because he loves you so much, and how he's going to change this time, but baby, he won't.

 -Loki- wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Prices in Australia are insane, so is their minimum wage though, like A$20 a month? The economy has had non-stop growth for the past decade, so people aren't exactly starving.

Spoken like someone not living in Australia. The people that make the news and talk about things like how wealthy Australans are have no fething idea what it's like to not be one of the 5%. You can see this when you have a moron MP saying things like people on $140,000au per year are not wealthy.

Try living here before making claims about our economy.

I lived in Brissy for two years doing my 6th form, and while people do run the gamut from relatively wealthy to povvos on welfare, by and large there is a huge safety net for people who deign not to work/can't find it. Minimum wage accords you a reasonably good standard of living- car, house, stocked up fridge on XXXX. The general standard of living is much higher than here in London, where minimum wage is £5.25 an hour and you can really struggle to get by on that.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Minimum wage accords you a reasonably good standard of living- car, house, stocked up fridge on XXXX.

Minimum wage currently won't cover the rent on a house in Brisbane.

At the moment in the city (spring hill used as an example suburb) rent is $300 per week on average. When you get to Greenslopes (which is a bit out of the city and on the cheaper side, atleast I think southside tends to be cheaper) you are paying $215 a week on average. Cooparoo in a similar area is $220. If you go north (lets say Clayfield) you are paying $215, bayside (Lota) is $231 and west (Indro) is $260.

Slacks Creek, where I'm living now, which isn't that shiny of an area, is $195 a week on average. It's 24 minutes from the city centre, has very limited public transport unless you drive about 10 minutes to get some, and is quite a seedy area. And it is barely below $200 a week.

These are just pulled off of the internet when I googled 'average rent in Brisbane'. As you can see, it's pretty damn expensive. Although those numbers seem really really low compared to what I was finding when I was looking for a place to move out to...hmm...the average that I was finding here at slack's creek was about $220 while I was looking, the information is probably a bit dated

 motyak wrote:
At the moment in the city (spring hill used as an example suburb) rent is $300 per week on average. When you get to Greenslopes (which is a bit out of the city and on the cheaper side, atleast I think southside tends to be cheaper) you are paying $215 a week on average. Cooparoo in a similar area is $220. If you go north (lets say Clayfield) you are paying $215, bayside (Lota) is $231 and west (Indro) is $260.

Maybe for units. You're not going to find a house around Indro for less than $350 a week, and it's more likely to be around the $400-600 mark. Anything anywhere in Brisbane outside of the dodgy housing-commission-heavy areas for under $300 is scarce.

True, as I said I just pulled it off the first site I found when googling 'average rent in brisbane', and that it didn't really match what I found when looking late last year

So do people actually call/pronounce it "breezy"? I used to support a lot of Australians; many of which were in Brisbane, one of which told me they "all called it that"; but he seemed a little off so I did not believe him.

 Ouze wrote:
So do people actually call/pronounce it "breezy"? I used to support a lot of Australians; many of which were in Brisbane, one of which told me they "all called it that"; but he seemed a little off so I did not believe him.

'Brizzy', not 'breezy'


Or 'Brisvegas' for the bogans.

This....

 Frazzled wrote:
It is a tangible demonstration of loss of market share, which is worse than the loss of a customer.

....is why I don't buy this:

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:companys exploit the market in whatever way they can, it's virtually a duty to shareholders who (legally) are their main concern (privately held companies have more flexability, whether or not they choose to use it....)

GW don't live in a bubble where they can exploit the market whatever way they can, people can and do play other games. Based on my observations in Australia is that the hobby as a whole has been growing a lot and GW's share of that market has been dropping (at least in the circles I used to frequent). If GW have been maintaining steady or slightly growing revenue in Australia, they are missing out on the larger market with non-competitive business practices. IMO, if they stop the majority of people importing to Oz, they are going to lose even more market share.

I know I personally would often buy a box here and a box there from FLGS's and GW stores and would even buy paints and such, but would also save money buying certain things that I could wait for internationally. If I can no longer buy things at internationally competitive prices, I'm out, and you can bet I'm going to be pissed about it because I only recently started an IG army.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Minimum wage accords you a reasonably good standard of living- car, house, stocked up fridge on XXXX.

Sure, at minimum wage, you have your car, your house, and your beer (seriously, XXXX? Picking the worst beer possible isn't helping you). You've got your food. You're paying your ludicrously priced utilities due to recent taxes (things have changed in recent years).

What we're arguing is that after living expenses in Australia, you don't generally have the disposeable income to pay what GW is asking. However, you generally do have the disposeable income to pay what Corvus Belli, Mantic, Privateer Press (just barely) are asking.

Cost of living is high in Auatralia, which offsets the higher minimum wage. Some other companies have seen this, and still wanting Australian customers, have priced their products here accordingly at retail. GW haven't, and have made damn sure we won't be their customer at retail or from ordering overseas.

 -Loki- wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Minimum wage accords you a reasonably good standard of living- car, house, stocked up fridge on XXXX.

Sure, at minimum wage, you have your car, your house, and your beer (seriously, XXXX? Picking the worst beer possible isn't helping you). You've got your food. You're paying your ludicrously priced utilities due to recent taxes (things have changed in recent years).

What we're arguing is that after living expenses in Australia, you don't generally have the disposeable income to pay what GW is asking. However, you generally do have the disposeable income to pay what Corvus Belli, Mantic, Privateer Press (just barely) are asking.

Cost of living is high in Auatralia, which offsets the higher minimum wage. Some other companies have seen this, and still wanting Australian customers, have priced their products here accordingly at retail. GW haven't, and have made damn sure we won't be their customer at retail or from ordering overseas.

Yeah, Australia does have good safety nets for people on the bottom end to allow them to get by in an economy where the essentials are more expensive. But what that means is there's not as large of a gap between the people struggling and the median. So the disposable income of the population relative to the price of goods one would buy with disposable income really isn't all that exceptional.

I'm currently working in the US and getting paid by Australia to do my work, Americans doing the exact same thing than me are getting paid slightly less, yes, but they can do significantly more disposable income spending than I could. They can afford to go to the pub more, they can afford to eat out more often, they can afford to buy nicer cars, etc etc. I'm extremely jealous of my US friend who owns a sports car that I could never afford in Oz despite the fact he earns several grand less than me doing the exact same job.

It's not JUST about how much you earn and it's not JUST about how much things cost, it's about how much money the median population has to spend and what they can buy with it and while Australia has good safety nets for the bottom end compared to a lot of other countries, the median really doesn't have a lot of cash to throw around.

We've been getting into Warmachine lately and occasionally the topic of GW does come up. There certainly isn't anyone defending them in these discussions, but everyone seems to agree the models themselves are very good (or literally the best available) and people are, at least, attached to the setting. Even the people who get very incensed when discussing GW are likely to be getting that way because they love the games and/or the settings.

I'm not sure that GW has burned many bridges, even with their policies and prices. I suspect that if they made changes (say they released rules that weren't awful and cut their prices to a third of what they are now) then people would flood back to them, even if those people are currently not playing or even quite vocal about their displeasure with GW.

The situation in New Zealand is even worse I think. For example, the Bretonnian kit for the Leon Leoncouer resin model is NZ$95.00 ($US78.00). That is just insane pricing.

I have brought exactly one new boxed item in the last ten years from GW. All the rest I get off the internet on auction sites.

 Brian Smaller wrote:
The situation in New Zealand is even worse I think. For example, the Bretonnian kit for the Leon Leoncouer resin model is NZ$95.00 ($US78.00). That is just insane pricing.

I have brought exactly one new boxed item in the last ten years from GW. All the rest I get off the internet on auction sites.

Don't worry about the Kiwis, as long as they have their sheep they'll be fine