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 Alpharius wrote:
Major questions since when?

Since this new HH series?

But I certainly don't remember and pre-BL HH series fluff about any of that!

Collected Visions, p196: [Horus] "Khan is out of our reach on Terra but I fear him not and believe he will ultimately side with us."

I'm a big fan of the White Scars and have been mentioning this intriguing and catastrophic mistake by Horus at BL events for several years (hoping that it will get written about) so I'm really looking forward to seeing how it is fleshed out.

Dang nice find there.

Uh yeah, not really.

Alan Alan Merrett's HH Card Game stuff is where it all started to get a bit...stupid.

And that quote?

It might be more a show of Horus' arrogance and the Chaos Gods' failings than anything else.

And clearly 'history' proved just that!

Still, I'm confident that the BL staff will make a good story out of most of it!

@Alpharius - I prefer a different interpretation. Rather than Horus just being a pantomime villain, I like to see him represented as a tactical expert. Flawed in some ways, yes, but still a very skilled and formidable commander - and I think BL have been trying to portray him this way too, which is good.

Rather than Horus's misjudgement of the Khan being due to arrogance or stupidity, I would rather see a more interesting story unfold, where the Khan is a complex character and Horus makes a rare, but ultimately fatal mistake.

I'm looking forward to seeing the frictions that occur between the loyalist Primarchs at the Siege:
[Dorn] We must all defend the walls.
[Sanguinius] Yes, we must all defend the walls.
[Khan] Bye guys, I'm going over there...
[Dorn and Sanguinius] WTF?!

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Doesn't seem to make much of a difference to me

It can be pretty important. Think of the AdMech: they're not loyal to the Emperor but rather to the Omnissiah. Therefore, those who do not believe he is the Omnissiah ...

Never did and never will, the Space Wolves on the other hand all believe that he is the Allfather and follow him wholeheartedly and their loyalty is never bought into question even when their acts are under suspicion.

Some do believe him to be the Omnissiah and accept him so, but the relationship between the Emperor and the Admech was initially a bargained loyalty. After those that did not believe he was the Omnissiah or wish to follow him seized the Temple of All Knowledge and the Emperor and his Space Marines put down the brief rebellion he had the means to make it, take me as you Omnissiah as many of you recognise me to be or I will release the Space Marines. It was a gamble of the Emperor behalf as well for a war with Mars would have been extremely costly for both sides and he needed Mars, but it paid off. Kelbor Hal in Mechanicum reflects on this saying that he never trusted or accepted the Emperor as the Omnissiah if I recall, grudgingly having to bend the knee.

The Wolves are the most loyal if you ask me, blind loyalty, after all you couldn't trust a dis loyal legion to be the executioners could you, even the World Eaters say something to that extent.

Just some musings on the Fists. They on the other hand, it's like it is their will to be loyal, they force themselves into doing it, it is their duty to be loyal and they will be, much with everything else it's their stubbornness that makes them so. Dorn was the only Primarch to go out and find his Father, maybe it was this determination to serve that forced him out into the stars. Thinking on it maybe that's what broke Dorn in the end, losing his direction. He no longer had a father to serve, all that he knew was changing around him, the Imperium was ash and dust, his Legion taken away from him. What did he have left.

Isn't there a new version of Collected Visions being written that will update and coincide with the Heresy series?

Brotherhood of the Storm mentions the relationship that Horus and the Khan have.

 Pilau Rice wrote:


Isn't there a new version of Collected Visions being written that will update and coincide with the Heresy series?

Yes.

Revised, updated and corrected.

next year.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Blog/visions-of-treachery.html

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Horus-Heresy-Visions-Alan-Merrett/dp/1849702160

http://www.amazon.com/Horus-Heresy-Visions-Alan-Merrett/dp/1849702160

I really don't like that front cover but loved the original Visions collection so will certainly get this.

The series has so far been pretty close to it I guess so it will be interesting to see what they update.

Will they update it again when the Heresy series is finished I wonder, I can't see it being finished by the time they release this.

Any word on a third installment in the "The Emperor's XX" art book series? Really want to see them do one on Guard.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Just some musings on the Fists

I completely agree with your thoughts here. Regarding the SW, I have no doubt that they're loyal. I'm just trying to draw the distinction that there doesn't seem to be a cultural qualification of the IFs' loyalty as there is with the SWs'.

 Manchu wrote:
LOL serialization. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to remind us that we know nothing about publishing and this is actually the only thing that makes selling fiction possible these days. I just hope it's not Aaron this time as that would be truly shameful.

The key difference (your bizarre hyperbole aside) is that last time you and a couple of others were making wild assumptions and critically misunderstanding something, so I politely explained why it was wrong and how it actually works in the industry; whereas this time it's a simple opinion on a format you don't like. There's nothing to argue with, correct, or debate. So there's no need for silliness like the text I just quoted. Is there some lingering negative sentiment you feel because were corrected? That seems unnecessary. No one knows everything, dude. No shame in getting something wrong.

Heck, I think serialisations are interesting enough, but it's not something I've ever been into. I can't stand watching TV series once a week, either. Box set or bust, for me. But I can see why a lot of serialised novels make a killing, and it's not like Game of Thrones and/or every TV series ever is suffering from the format, so I appreciate that just 'cause it's not for me, doesn't mean it's not for anyone.

I've never heard of books being released chapter by chapter in the modern era...

Will this book be released later on in some form of collected format like your standard dead tree or ebook?

Aaron, do you happen to have any insight on why they chose that pricing, effectively making it more expensive than the hardcover when it's all said and done?

I really love Chris' writing, and I want to support him, but, for the first time for me with Black Library, I'm having trouble reconciling the pricing structure.

With the standard "Enhanced eBook" being $15.99 for the HH series (a price I'm comfortable with), the price point, when it's all said and done, more than doubles that eBook price. I'd have been willing to buy, say, a $20 "serial subscription" but a 200% markup is pretty tough for me to swallow. And I buy all the limited novellas because I love the series.

Would love to hear your thoughts, or, at the very least, know if it would be worth my while writing a letter (an acutal pen and ink one!) to the folks at BL expressing that opinion.

 Alfndrate wrote:
I've never heard of books being released chapter by chapter in the modern era...

Will this book be released later on in some form of collected format like your standard dead tree or ebook?

Yes.

 reds8n wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
I've never heard of books being released chapter by chapter in the modern era...

Will this book be released later on in some form of collected format like your standard dead tree or ebook?

Yes.

Thanks Now just to see wtf the cost is .

I'll refer you back to page 24 of this thread

Dead Blue Clown wrote:
whereas this time it's a simple opinion on a format you don't like

Nah, it's the same thing -- reformatting content to theoretically squeeze more out of the consumer.

 reds8n wrote:
I'll refer you back to page 24 of this thread

Psh, no one reads these threads I just lurk for the pretty cover images and the arguments about book format. Now if you'll excuse me, I think I left something on page 24 >_>

Edit: nvm, cincy answered it below

 Manchu wrote:

Dead Blue Clown wrote:
whereas this time it's a simple opinion on a format you don't like

Nah, it's the same thing -- reformatting content to theoretically squeeze more out of the consumer.

Well, it's not really, is it?

The print book format change was simply a move for them to a "industry standard" structure.

The serialized book is not.

Even as an unabashed HH fanboy that buys pretty much everything, the serialized pricing structure isn't sitting well with me.

Part of me wants to buy it because, you know, HH!!!!! But the other part of me doesn't want to spend money and tell them this structure is "okay."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Alf - The book will eventually be released just like all the others, with the HB $30, Enhanced eBook $16...etc structure.

 cincydooley wrote:
I really love Chris' writing, and I want to support him, but, for the first time for me with Black Library, I'm having trouble reconciling the pricing structure. [...] I'd have been willing to buy, say, a $20 "serial subscription" but a 200% markup is pretty tough for me to swallow.

As a fan of Chris Wraight myself, I have been considering the same question. It's pretty much just like with the MMPB deal; you will still be able to get the novel but you'll have to wait. Again, the model is premium price for folks who want to read it first.

http://www.amazon.com/Scars-Horus-Heresy-Chris-Wraight/dp/1849706042/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1375975056&sr=8-1&keywords=scars+chris+wraight

I know I'm looking forward to reading this book sometime in 2015!

 Manchu wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
I really love Chris' writing, and I want to support him, but, for the first time for me with Black Library, I'm having trouble reconciling the pricing structure. [...] I'd have been willing to buy, say, a $20 "serial subscription" but a 200% markup is pretty tough for me to swallow.

As a fan of Chris Wraight myself, I have been considering the same question. It's pretty much just like with the MMPB deal; you will still be able to get the novel but you'll have to wait. Again, the model is premium price for folks who want to read it first.

http://www.amazon.com/Scars-Horus-Heresy-Chris-Wraight/dp/1849706042/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1375975056&sr=8-1&keywords=scars+chris+wraight

I actually understand and don't necessarily mind the "get it first" premium. Like I said, I'd have happily paid $20 for a "serial subscription."

I'm having a lot of trouble swallowing $36 in total for an eBook.

Especially when there's no assurances I'll be privy to a 'full version' when the story is finished.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And here's a pretty petty complaint regarding that "serial subscription":

It's going to be irritating as feth to have to make a $2.99 purchase every week and reenter my CC information.

Grrrrrrr.

 Alpharius wrote:
I know I'm looking forward to reading this book sometime in 2015!

I think that's a major fething issue. Granted 2015 is a little hyperbolic (it should be Q4 2014 for MMPB right?), but still if I want this book I have to wait months for it to come out in a format I want. Now I know that I own all of the Harry Potter Hardbacks and I bought them day 1 (I was a kid so sue me ), but to wait over a year in to get it in a format I want is a royal pain in the ass for me as a reader. I still don't own the third hunger games book because it wasn't in paperback when I bought the other two.

I just think that adding on yet another thing to delay a book format just sucks. I realize that the whole, HB, TPB, MMPB thing is more of a trend than I had realized, it still sucks that we keep having the format changed on us so the format we might want get's pushed back.

When is the serialization release, or what page can I find this on again? Because to wait until May of next year for even the TPB sucks.

 cincydooley wrote:
I actually understand and don't necessarily mind the "get it first" premium.

Well of course! You call it "industry standard" after all. What "industry standard" broadly means is asking for as much as you think you can get. The serialization issue is just your breaking point. For others, it was the price of hardcovers. The answer BL has for all of us is, you'll just have to wait.

 Manchu wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
I actually understand and don't necessarily mind the "get it first" premium.

Well of course! You call it "industry standard" after all. What "industry standard" broadly means is asking for as much as you think you can get. The serialization issue is just your breaking point. For others, it was the price of hardcovers. The answer BL has for all of us is, you'll just have to wait.

As long as waiting remains an option, I'm ok with that.

My concern is the continued support for those of us who would like their books to all line up neatly will quietly disappear over time. Especially as the "legacy edition" Mark Of Calth doesn't seem to be showing on Amazon for pre-order yet.

I think your concern is well-founded. BL's changes seem less to do with the publishing industry and more to do with conforming themselves to GW's larger business plan. A cornerstone of that plan is price insensitivity. Supporting "legacy" ranges is obviously not a cornerstone of that plan.

 Manchu wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
I actually understand and don't necessarily mind the "get it first" premium.

Well of course! You call it "industry standard" after all. What "industry standard" broadly means is asking for as much as you think you can get. The serialization issue is just your breaking point. For others, it was the price of hardcovers. The answer BL has for all of us is, you'll just have to wait.

Naw, I don't actually think paying the "get it first" premium is any kind of 'industry standard,' in publishing or in anything else I know of.

With that being said, I understand it. People will be pay extra to be the first. gak, people pay like, $150 extra at GenCon to be a "very imporant gamer" which effectively allows you to enter the dealer hall first. Same thing happened at Adepticon.

And frankly, BLs bastardization of the MMPB is right in line with the publishing industry, who has seen the eBook overtake it as the disposable format of choice for readers. It may not be your choice, but the numbers bear out that is the more popular choice.

 cincydooley wrote:
Naw, I don't actually think paying the "get it first" premium is any kind of 'industry standard,' in publishing or in anything else I know of.

So what is the general point of hard cover releases? And before you say "collector's edition," please remember that ebooks released alongside of hardcovers cost more, too.

 Manchu wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Naw, I don't actually think paying the "get it first" premium is any kind of 'industry standard,' in publishing or in anything else I know of.

So what is the general point of hard cover releases? And before you say "collector's edition," please remember that ebooks released alongside of hardcovers cost more, too.

The point of hardcovers, IMO, is purely for the collector. I know that's not the answer you're looking for, but hardcovers look nice on a shelf. Worn ass MMPBs, IMO, don't.

And not to belabor the point, but it's pretty standard for a 'new' ebook on amazon to cost most at it's launch than it does 3 months down the road. Gotta squeeze those few extra $$ out of the people that want it right now. The same happens with blu-rays, and video games, and pretty much every other media format. If you want it the day it launches, you pay more. If you want to wait, you'll pay less.

So now you are saying it is an industry standard?

 Manchu wrote:
So now you are saying it is an industry standard?

Are we talking about serialization or all of the formatting and pricing pieces?

If we're talking about serialization, then no, I don't think its any kind of industry standard, and think it's a really lame money grab, especially since you can't do a bundle at the outset to entice and save. Though now that I think about it, the argument could easily be made regarding all the new serialized video games that you can get cheaper later if you wait for the full "package." See: Walking Dead, Back to the Future on PSN.


If we're talking about the Hardcover or eBook prices that lower the older the novel is, then yes, I do think it's pretty standard within the publishing industry.

And I get that you're poking a bit of fun at me for using the "industry standard" line, but I mean, its the truth...