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There's a difference between turning away from the Emperor and turing towards Chaos. I think many of them just rebelled and is often the case in 40K they end up selling their souls to the devil for victory before they know what they've done.

Good point, KC. That's what I meant about "informed."

Anyway, as for most plausible Traitor I would say Angron in fact I would say his rebellion was inevitable. I actually think it was a bit implausible for The Emperor to not see that coming.

I think that's a rather slender reed to lean upon in terms of 'explaining' their motivation.

All of the Primarchs, on top of everything else, where, allegedly, Super Geniuses.

OK, maybe not Angron.

I think that the ore they shine a light on the Horus Heresy, the more...improbably and unlikely the whole thing seems!

I don't know. I think Horus makes sense. He thought he could do a better job than The Emperor. When he rebelled it opened the eyes of other Primarchs. Like, if Horus actually thinks this is right and can be done well...maybe it can. He was the first domino because everyone thought so highly of him.

Ah...he thinks he can do it better, and then proceeds to slaughter, massacre and corrupt billions on his way to the top?

Sure...OK?

Not saying I agree with him...

People have done the same thing IRL. Also Horus slaughtered and killed and subjugated millions before betraying The Emperor. That was his job. He just decided to do of for himself instead of The Emperor who he started feel like had abandoned him to do his job.

Horus: Turned to chaos because the Emperor was 'leaving' the galaxy to the humans and not the astartes.

Let's not forget that there was a parrot on Horus' shoulder influencing him that the Emperor was lying to him and was not the true "Emperor" to be exalted.
Now consider the source of that parrot, and you'll see some of the butt-hurt being projected to Horus with the parrot's sales-pitch.

Fulgrim: Similar viewpoint as Horus, but only gave thought to it after being tainted by Slaanesh on Laer, quickly devolves into a quest to experience everything and ever deeper pits of depravity

The Emperor's Children's fall is probably one that was the most "involuntary". Fulgrim was seduced/possessed whereas his weakness of pride and seeking ultimate perfection was used against him. This started the trickle-down effect that eventually encompassed the legion. Fulgrim only realized too late (Istvaan V) that he was what he was.

Mortarion: Viewed the Emperor as a faceless being ruling from on high, reminded him about the people on his home planet

This one is quite the mystery to me as from what I've read so far, there is no definitive reason for Mortarion's turning other than he was a close ally of Horus. The psychological aspect of him viewing the Emperor as similarly as the Dusk Lords of his home planet seem "off" to me, considering the oppressive nature of his home environment vs running with the Imperium and re-establishing/freeing old colonies throughout the galaxy under the Imperium's aegis.

Angron: Emperor betrayed his trust by not giving him the gladiator's death he so richly deserved/didn't save his homeboys like the Big E had saved others.

Angron was probably the most flawed of the Primarchs save for Kurze (but for a different reason). Plucking a super-genetic warrior from his environment and giving him a legion with no guidance, seems to me a very hasty and un-planned action that has the potential to be a train-wreck. Needless to say Angorn had issues which I'm sure all agree.

Kurze: He and his sons felt the Emperor was lying to them all (can't really remember why he betrayed the Imperium

Kurze, like Angron was a product of his environment a bit. He had to put-down the criminal domination of his planet by being the thing people feared in the dark. He was the bogey man and he played it up to instill subjugation through fear. Though I do not think Kurze was inherently mean or callous as he did "clean" the government and allegedly made his planet a better place to live. Other than being cursed with some self-omnipotence (ala Sanguinius) he seemed to have some sort of "oppression" syndrome where I believe he "rebelled" because of his legion being reined in a bit due to their psy-op shenanigans during the crusade. His turning had nothing to do with chaos, but more of a honest rebellion to the powers that be.

Perturabo: Looking for the respect he and his sons deserved, felt that Horus's future would granted him such respect (also could get back at Rogal Dorn)

This is probably the more "human" reaction for why he turned and is somewhat believable. Perturabo was always painted as a brooding figure in the old Index Astartes articles, and it appears that picture has changed.

Lorgar: Was humiliated because he venerated the Emperor as a god, realized that there were truths to the old religion of Colchis, and sought out those gods to give his praise and worship to.

Well, someone had to start the fall I suppose. Lorgar and his crew being censured by the Emperor was the catalyst that started it all. Their quest of finding the old religion plus their hatred of the Emperor and lobbying for allies to pursue their cause is pretty much the start of the "long war".

Magnus: Was a loyal son to the Emperor, but made a deal with Tzeentch to save his sons from the Space Wolves, but was loyal up until that point (yes?).

Like the Emperor's Children, another unfortunate tragedy for a legion with good intent. Magnus was always dealing with Tzeentch, but he didn't know it until he had to save his legion during the Prospero invasion.
"Turning" was a way of survival and then later became about revenge.

Alpharius: Loyal to the Emperor 10,000 years later.

Lots yet to be known about the Alphas, however, I haven't read beyond Legion and the Primarchs to know any more about Alpharius (or Omegon).

Mortarion nearly died freeing the mortals of his adoptive planet from his vampiric "father" -- then the Emperor stepped in and saved him and everyone else. So the Emperor pretty much invalidated Mortarion's self-confidence from the start.

Back in the day wasn't the reason he was corrupted because he was caught on a ship stuck in the warp? Then the HH books retconned it so he was a traitor even before then?

Or was it always like this?

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Back in the day wasn't the reason he was corrupted because he was caught on a ship stuck in the warp? Then the HH books retconned it so he was a traitor even before then?

Or was it always like this?

Back in the Index Astartes/Visions of Heresy Days, Mortarion willingly joined Horus as he thought it was for the good of the Imperium. However he gets stuck in the Warp and exposed to a virus and while in agony pleads to Nurgle to save him, thus turning over to Chaos out of despair. The entire thing was a trap set up by Lorgar IIRC.

I don't know if the novel series will change it though. They've already retconned Fulgrim becoming a Daemon Prince to during the Heresy instead of after it as it had been established in Index Astartes. In addition, Fulgrim broke free of the Daemon that possessed him from that sword in the book series whereas originally he was pretty much completely taken over and locked in that painting while that Daemon took his body.

Plus the whole Unremembered Empire/much larger role for Calgar in the Heresy thing are other drastic changes. The books are moving away from the classic Heresy description, which could be fine if written well.

Pulled out an old 2nd edition codex and it says Mortarion went rogue because he "believed that he was the herald of a new age of justice".

I find Mortarion's reasons always to be the most nebulous. It pretty much just always comes down to "meh, why the heck not?"

Visions of Heresy describes Mortarion's reason for going alongside Horus simply because he had barely seen the Emperor, but had fought alongside Horus for years and had a great respect for him.

But yes of all the Traitor Primarchs he has the weakest motivation. Horus himself had a pretty pathetic excuse as well and was basically tricked.

Lorgar, Angron, Magnus and Curze all have been written solidly why they turned at least. Angron probably had the most legitimate reason.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Pulled out an old 2nd edition codex and it says Mortarion went rogue because he "believed that he was the herald of a new age of justice".

I find Mortarion's reasons always to be the most nebulous. It pretty much just always comes down to "meh, why the heck not?"

Agreed. It just didn't "feel" like Mortarion had an axe to grind with anything other than having an issue with the Librarious program pre-Nikea.

Visions of Heresy describes Mortarion's reason for going alongside Horus simply because he had barely seen the Emperor, but had fought alongside Horus for years and had a great respect for him.

But yes of all the Traitor Primarchs he has the weakest motivation. Horus himself had a pretty pathetic excuse as well and was basically tricked.

Lorgar, Angron, Magnus and Curze all have been written solidly why they turned at least. Angron probably had the most legitimate reason.

This is probably a better detailed reason, but still kind of weird? Agree with most of the others though....

I think I remember Horus referring to Mortarian in one of the novels as a toadying oaf who will do anything to please him.

 BrookM wrote:
I think I remember Horus referring to Mortarian in one of the novels as a toadying oaf who will do anything to please him.

I have not found that quote yet, unless it happened in the first three books because I don't remember much of them.

As for Mortarion being stuck in the warp and diseased and turning to Nurgle, we've only experienced that with his Commander during Flight of the Eisenstein, according to Lexicanum he was stuck in the warp on the way to Terra and that's when it happened. To our knowledge, Mortarion is still the gaunt figure he's always been.

Also, I'm not sure if my little analysis of the Primarchs caused all this discussion, but it's been nice to sort of fill the void while we way for the next book.

Also haven't started reading Vulkan Lives, I'll probably throw it on my Kindle this weekend... I've just been trying to get through the rest of the HH, and Descent of Angels is dry as hell...

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

I find Mortarion's reasons always to be the most nebulous. It pretty much just always comes down to "meh, why the heck not?"

Good point - and to me, that's what a lot of the 'justifications' feel like.

And even IF you could somehow justify the Primarchs original turn to Chaos, there's no way you could ever convince anyone that it is a 'good idea' in 'Modern 40K'.

The only way "Chaos" works there is as an infectious disease - impossible to resist once you're infected.

Which would only make it all the more unlikely that anyone would willingly sign up.

 Harriticus wrote:
Visions of Heresy describes Mortarion's reason for going alongside Horus simply because he had barely seen the Emperor, but had fought alongside Horus for years and had a great respect for him.

But yes of all the Traitor Primarchs he has the weakest motivation. Horus himself had a pretty pathetic excuse as well and was basically tricked.

Lorgar, Angron, Magnus and Curze all have been written solidly why they turned at least. Angron probably had the most legitimate reason.

I disagree about Horus. At first it seems like yes he was just tricked but upon closer inspection of False Gods he straight up tells Erebus to stop his tickery. That he knows everything he's seeing is without context and context is everything. That's how he leaves it. He then later makes the conscious decision to betray The Emperor anyway.

So it wasn't simply a matter of seeing statues of the God-Emperor everywhere and him being jealous that set him off.
I think simply seeing someone being worshiped and venerated as a living God opened up Horus's mind to the possibility of such a thing in a bad way. At the very core it was Horus's hubris that caused his rebellion not just some trick.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Alpharius wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

I find Mortarion's reasons always to be the most nebulous. It pretty much just always comes down to "meh, why the heck not?"

Good point - and to me, that's what a lot of the 'justifications' feel like.

And even IF you could somehow justify the Primarchs original turn to Chaos, there's no way you could ever convince anyone that it is a 'good idea' in 'Modern 40K'.

The only way "Chaos" works there is as an infectious disease - impossible to resist once you're infected.

Which would only make it all the more unlikely that anyone would willingly sign up.

How I'm going to think of him now is according to what Harriticus said. He was simply 100% loyal to Horus not that Emperor guy he's barely seen with his fancy, super-shiny, gold armour. He'd been on the leading edge of the Crusade for decades with Horus as his battle brother and also he doesn't believe in shiny, pretty armour. Dull, unpainted armour is totally the way to go...

Bear in mind Alph that none of them know that. Chaos as we know it doesn't really exist to them in a sense. All information was kept pretty hush hush about the warp and such. So I think it's more a case of one brick at a time on the road to hell.

As for the Traitors:

Horus: I would have been fine if it was just I know better than dad does so f-him. But a super genius general/politician being so easily manipulated by what was generally considered the sissiest primarch was a bit much.

Angron: That nail affected his brain. He was going to rebel or need to be purged eventually.

Magnus: More driven into the enemies arms than actually rebelling. Combined with a previous deal with the warp meant he was doomed anyway.

Logar: Knows he's a sissy. Went looking for something that would make him as cool as his bros. His fall makes sense to me.

Kurze: Ideological differences and being slightly nuts. Rebellion or purging was likely from the start with this one.

Mortarion: No real good reason to rebel so I don't get it.

Fulgrim: Possession preying on his hubris and desire to be loved/the best. He didn't really fall, chaos engineered his. He wasn't really tricked either. Just picked up the wrong weapon.

Perturabo: My favorite primarch as written so far. But his reasoning for going bad was partially anger at getting all the dirty jobs and partly guilt over his reaction to being the only primarch who's homeworld went into open rebellion. His fall is pretty much about timing.

Alpharion/Omegon (or whatever): Because aliens told us to!

Yes, as for the "modern" traitors not everyone in 40K has read the BRB.

In the previous Chaos codex there's a short story about one Space Marine's fall. A sergeant Constantinius and it's very believable. In 40K the road to The Warp is more often than not paved with good intentions.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Bear in mind Alph that none of them know that. Chaos as we know it doesn't really exist to them in a sense. All information was kept pretty hush hush about the warp and such. So I think it's more a case of one brick at a time on the road to hell.

I know - which is why I said even if you can explain the original fall, no one would sign up down the road!

 Hulksmash wrote:

Alpharion/Omegon (or whatever): Because aliens told us to!

Don't get me started on that one.

OK, too late!

I still hold out hope that Dan was going somewhere really cool with what he started in LEGION - that the Alpha Legion was playing a tricky long game, looking to find a way out 'For the Emperor" and remain, in some strange way, Loyal to that to this day.

Some glimpses of that still show up - like spacing the Cabal's ambassador in one scene, but then, a lot of additional appearances go back to mustache twirling, and even worse, the OMG 'shocking' revelation that...the only two actual brother Primarchs are going to be at each other! Just like all the other 'brothers' are!

Oh noes! How could we have (NOT) seen this coming?!?

Yawn.

I still have a feeling that we haven't heard the last of the Fulgrim demon,

Grarg wrote:
I still have a feeling that we haven't heard the last of the Fulgrim demon,

Spoiler:

in Angel Exterminatus, if i remember correctly, there is a painting of Fulgrim that is gets pissed off at, whether it's Fulgrim or the demon i don't know/it wasn't clear to me.

I told you guys, Mortarion felt cheated by the Emperor form the start

Why?

Mortarion lived on this awful planet covered in smog. The air was only breathable by mortals near the ground. If you went up mountains, you'd suffocate (and/or melt). Weird vampires ruled the planet and Mortarion was raised by the king of them. They lived up in the smog. Eventually Mortarion grew to hate his adopted father and started to lead the mortals against him in rebellion. He trudged up the mountains and the smog corroded his armor until it all fell off. Eventually he made it to the vampire king but even he couldn't take the poison atmosphere at that point so he fell down in front of him and prepared to die. All the sudden, the Emperor busts in and kills the vampire king. Mortarion swore fealty to the Emperor, who saved him, but felt cheated.

 Alfndrate wrote:

Spoiler:

If I remember correctly, the Daemon is in the painting now.

 Manchu wrote:
Mortarion lived on this awful planet covered in smog. The air was only breathable by mortals near the ground. If you went up mountains, you'd suffocate (and/or melt). Weird vampires ruled the planet and Mortarion was raised by the king of them. They lived up in the smog. Eventually Mortarion grew to hate his adopted father and started to lead the mortals against him in rebellion. He trudged up the mountains and the smog corroded his armor until it all fell off. Eventually he made it to the vampire king but even he couldn't take the poison atmosphere at that point so he fell down in front of him and prepared to die. All the sudden, the Emperor busts in and kills the vampire king. Mortarion swore fealty to the Emperor, who saved him, but felt cheated.

Ok, that's still a horrible reason though. I still think it makes sense that in addition to that his relationship with Horus was a bigger factor.

I kind of like that background. He spends his whole life trying to accomplish something and then the Emperor shows up and baits him into an unwinnable situation just so he can play deus ex machina. Psychologically, it's a good set up for Mortarion's confidence crisis in the Warp.

Yes, I suppose there is a connection there. He needed some more Deus ex Machina.