Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was having a debate with another Dakka member which I am still not convinced about, so I thought id make a YMDC thread to see what the consensus is.

The question is whether a DW Termie can replace his SB/PF with a TH/SS and then take a CML, or if only a standard SB/PF termie can have the CML.

My reasoning:
The TH/SS replaces the SB/PF, and then the codex says any DW Termie may take a CML. So the SB is replaced first, then the CML is selected.

The other users reasoning:
TH/SS replaces ALL weapons, which would include a CML.

The other user was also using the precedent set by the changes to the Furioso dread in the BA codex as an arguement. But Im not convinced of this either as its not the DA codex. The old DA codex had this as a legal combo, and as far as I can tell the new codex does not prevent it.

Id like to hear the community's view.

 HerbaciousT wrote:

OTHER USER wrote:Sorry HerbaciousT but you need to read the DA codex again. I
TH/SS replaces ALL weapons not just SB & PF. Is the CML included in all weapons? Well is it a weapon?

What was allowed in the old codex is irrelevant. You used to have a PF on the apothecary, now you can't.

Yes but you can replace the SB/PF with the TH/SS, and then take a CML after. The upgrades can be take in that order.

Dont have my codex to hand, but I think the TH/SS just says 'replace their SB/PF' doesnt it? In any case, if it does replace all weapons, you can still take the CML after the swtichout, so it still works.

Hopefully it will be FAQ'd in the future, but as far as I can tell it is still a legal loadout for a Termie.

All arguements, for and against, are much appreciated. Id like to know if I have to remodel my DW!

Im all for it. Its a shoulder-mounted weapon which leaves the hands free, and most importantly its allowed in the oh-so-holy Army Builder. I do not have any problems with it and if it were like the old (I think 3rd ed?) where the CML targetter replaced the pfst it wouldn't be allowed but it is an entirely different weapon set now. if indeed the specific entry for CML said "Replace X" I would argue against it, but as it says "up to one in every 5 may take" (mind you separate from the HF/AC options) it is a legal option to take a TH/SS deathwing and give him a CML

As stated TH/SS replaces ALL weapons. Is the CML a weapon?

You claim the upgrades can be ordinal the only place you could get that is from the Ork FaQ so either other codex FaQs can set precedent or not. If not you have no permission to apply the upgrades ordinally so no CML + TH/SS or you can in which case the BA FaQ clarifies that the ALL clause is not ordinal so again you can't.

As it stands either way this is A no no and the RaI has been clearly set.

The TH&SS replace all weapons but does not change the named profile. Any DW Termie may take a CML. A DW Termie w/TH&SS is still a DW Termie. Should it be FAQd? Yes!

Homer

 Homer S wrote:
The TH&SS replace all weapons but does not change the named profile. Any DW Termie may take a CML. A DW Termie w/TH&SS is still a DW Termie. Should it be FAQd? Yes!

Homer

I agree with this.

It's legal, still. And should stay legal post FAQ this is a Deathwing signature config for at least 15 years or so. Flingitnow is one of only a tiny few that believe it is illegal and he is very vocal about it.

 Homer S wrote:
The TH&SS replace all weapons but does not change the named profile. Any DW Termie may take a CML. A DW Termie w/TH&SS is still a DW Termie. Should it be FAQd? Yes!

Homer

why is changing the name of the profile important. tgf kept trying to make it important in another thread. It has no relevance as tgf had to concede.

It clearly needs an FaQ as so many people are either being wilfully ignorant of the rules or are out right cheating. Their attitude is making others break the rule unknowingly.

RAW I don't see a problem in the wording, but RAI I find the concept very cheesy.

Ultimately I think it's something that will get FAQ'd, because I feel it's their point that you're making a sacrifice to trade out shooting options to make them CC monsters.

Forget the utility of having both for a second -- it would almost be worth taking 10 man DW squad and putting CML on TH SS guys just to give yourself 2 anti armor options with a 3++... just park them at the back of the board.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Homer S wrote:
The TH&SS replace all weapons but does not change the named profile. Any DW Termie may take a CML. A DW Termie w/TH&SS is still a DW Termie. Should it be FAQd? Yes!

Homer

why is changing the name of the profile important. tgf kept trying to make it important in another thread. It has no relevance as tgf had to concede.

It clearly needs an FaQ as so many people are either being wilfully ignorant of the rules or are out right cheating. Their attitude is making others break the rule unknowingly.

I never conceded i just got tired of you repeating your furioso line. Choosing not to go in circles is not the same as conceding its just like walking away from an argument with a 4 year old.

Fling - it isnt cheating. You have replaced all weapons, then taken a CML. There is nothing against the rules with that.

You keep repeating an untruth. Dont.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Fling - it isnt cheating. You have replaced all weapons, then taken a CML. There is nothing against the rules with that.

You keep repeating an untruth. Dont.

Where's your permission to apply the upgrades ordinally? If you're using other FaQs as precedent to allow that then the BA FaQ comes into play and proves you can't use ordinal with the All clause. So show me where you are getting your permission to apply the upgrades ordinally with out using the Ork FaQ.

The permission is given in the text. THere is no conflicting FAQ for this book (as furiosos are different)

Again: permission has been given to add a CML. You have no restriction you can point to.

I can definitely see the argument Fling is making. It does make sense. But I still feel that it is no more correct than my own interpretation (nor any less correct, it is simply one of two possible interpretations). If it is FAQ'd away, ill accept it without question. But until then I read it as I can still have my TH/SS+CML Termies.

The only restriction to a CML is 5 in a unit... The replace all weapons is referring to power fist, and storm bolster. Since its obvious that the thunder hammer is the right hand and the shield goes in the left. IMHO that's how it's written and should be played.

I can point to the TH/SS replacing your CML though nos. So you've paid 25 more points for a weapon that you don't have.

Lungpickle if it meant SB and PF it would have said that. It says all weapons is the CML a weapon?

 FlingitNow wrote:
I can point to the TH/SS replacing your CML though nos. So you've paid 25 more points for a weapon that you don't have.

Lungpickle if it meant SB and PF it would have said that. It says all weapons is the CML a weapon?

Well actually you would only be replacing the Hammer. The Shield is not a weapon.

I would let you use it. Many death wing players have this configuration and I think it is perfectly acceptable

Noob it is the hammer and shield that do the replacing. So whether the shield is a weapon is irrelevant. Likewise this is not a restriction on the CML. This is a restriction on the TH/SS combo if you take it you can't have any other weapons as it replaces them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Noob it is the hammer and shield that do the replacing. So whether the shield is a weapon is irrelevant. Likewise this is not a restriction on the CML. This is a restriction on the TH/SS combo if you take it you can't have any other weapons as it replaces them.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Noob it is the hammer and shield that do the replacing. So whether the shield is a weapon is irrelevant. Likewise this is not a restriction on the CML. This is a restriction on the TH/SS combo if you take it you can't have any other weapons as it replaces them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Noob it is the hammer and shield that do the replacing. So whether the shield is a weapon is irrelevant. Likewise this is not a restriction on the CML. This is a restriction on the TH/SS combo if you take it you can't have any other weapons as it replaces them.

my bad..I am dyslexic LOL

Auswin wrote:
RAW I don't see a problem in the wording, but RAI I find the concept very cheesy.

Ultimately I think it's something that will get FAQ'd, because I feel it's their point that you're making a sacrifice to trade out shooting options to make them CC monsters.

Forget the utility of having both for a second -- it would almost be worth taking 10 man DW squad and putting CML on TH SS guys just to give yourself 2 anti armor options with a 3++... just park them at the back of the board.

This combo has been around for like 15 years. Its far from cheesy. The model costs like 74 points with 1 wound to have this combo. Yea game breaking... lol

This in my opinion is legal and should be. Its one of the few real tricks that dark angels ever had and is totally feasible in my mind. Just opinion.

Somehow when I saw this question I knew Fling was behind it. So Fling where is your justification that they cannot be taken in the order chosen by the player? Or more to the point where is your justification that there is ANY established order for how upgrades are chosen?

BA FAQ and Ork FAQ are not valid responses here, those are separate armies, and with the BA specifically there is a change to model name and stat line. So until you can find some thing official from GW you're just trying to convince people you're right because you say you're right

I think it is legal you 1st replace all weapons then you are not limited to any codex option that is still open to you as long as that option doesn't try to replace something you don't have.

I.E. GK Inquisitor gets Term Armor and TH. He replaces his other weapons but still has any option open that doesn't replace the Chain Sword or Bolter b/c they are now gone.

andystache wrote:
Somehow when I saw this question I knew Fling was behind it. So Fling where is your justification that they cannot be taken in the order chosen by the player? Or more to the point where is your justification that there is ANY established order for how upgrades are chosen?

BA FAQ and Ork FAQ are not valid responses here, those are separate armies, and with the BA specifically there is a change to model name and stat line. So until you can find some thing official from GW you're just trying to convince people you're right because you say you're right

It is a permissive ruleset you have to prove that the upgrades are ordinal. If there is no order to them they happen simultaneously and therefore guess what the TH/SS replaces your CML because it is a weapon.

So prove you can take the upgrades ordinally then prove you select the order. Do this without referring to other FaQs or precedent follows me again.

I have already argued the point about the furioso, you are changing the unit type, DW termies do not change the model/unit type and imo RAW you can take the TH SS then add a CML after, nothing wrong with that.

From the codex: "Any model can replace all of his weapons with: LC or TH/SS"

Written this way to include the Sgt who is armed with a power sword instead of a power fist

Next bullet point: "For every five models in the squad, one Deathwing Terminator may choose one of the following options: Replace SB with HF, PC, or AC. Take a CML"

If the options are not ordinal then you could never take more than one heavy weapon in the DW squad. If the TH/SS occurs at the exact same time as purchasing the CML, then selecting multiple heavy weapons would occur simultaneously with adding additional models to the unit making the second heavy weapon an illegal choice. When you purchased the second heavy weapon there were an indeterminate number of model in the squad making the selection invalid

andystache wrote:
From the codex: "Any model can replace all of his weapons with: LC or TH/SS"
If the options are not ordinal then you could never take more than one heavy weapon in the DW squad. If the TH/SS occurs at the exact same time as purchasing the CML, then selecting multiple heavy weapons would occur simultaneously with adding additional models to the unit making the second heavy weapon an illegal choice. When you purchased the second heavy weapon there were an indeterminate number of model in the squad making the selection invalid

I agree with this. Furthermore Fling, for all your "permissive ruleset" arguing, the same argument could be posed to you, to prove that the upgrades are taken simultaneously. While I certainly could be wrong here, I don't know of anywhere in any book that it says they must be purchased in such a manner.

Quite the contrary, actually. Most upgrade lists I see are laid out in a format that, while not explicitly stated, at least infers that upgrades are purchased ordinally (ie, character weapon upgrades coming AFTER the character is purchased).

Hàsn't this alreqdy been discussed before to a "wait til the FAQ' stalemate?

Page 60 cyclone missile launcher. A terminator can fire his cyclone missile launcher in addition to his STORM BOLTER (which is a weapon). How could this be possible?
It is possible only because of this:
For every five models in the squad, one deathwing terminator may choose any of the following options:
all say replace storm bolter + with + . EXCEPT!!!! take a cyclone missile launcher, so you can take a CML with anything else you possess, you don't have to replace anything it is permissive you take!
Therefore have whatever weapon configuration you wish and then yep you can take a CML as long as it is only 1 per 5 terminators.

Sorry FLing and anyone else believing otherwise you are so clearly misguided on focusing on one statement in absence of the support right in the options itself.
This so doesn't need an FAQ.

FiN, which state do you represent in the Senate?

The BA FAQ says nothing to indicate that any other unit in the game follows that rule. It gives no rhyme or reason for that ruling (which I imagine is why you're arguing so vehemently, you must be a BA player).

If anything, the Ork FAQ sets the precedent that upgrades happen "ordinally," in any order you desire.

And that's only if we're allowing one FAQ to set precedent for another. Nothing in the reading of the DA Codex indicates this cannot be done. There's gear you have, and gear you dont. Taking the TH/SS replaces the gear you have. now go get more gear.

The ruling about the Furioso seems stupid, though I haven't played it. But as they gave no reason for it, it is what it is. Deathwing Terminators are not Furioso Librarians, so the rule can't possibly apply.

With no ordinality to the options you can still use knowledge of what options are being selected.

The bullet points aren't numbered if you assume they are in order then the DW squad can do this but the DW Command can't., which shows the inconsistency.

If you believe you can select the order then you need to show permission to do so. The Ork FaQ illustrates a precedent that this is the case, however if you're looking at precedent then the BA FaQ comes in and says no.

If you believe that order is irrelevant or that the upgrades occur simultaneously then your TH/SS replaces the CML along with all other weapons.

So your options are:

1. DW squads can but command can't
2. Prove permission to choose the order of upgrades without looking at precedent.
3. Look at clear precedent and accept that you can't have TH/SS replaces+ CML anymore.
4. Assume the upgrades are not ordinal and therefore you can't have TH/S + CML.

Personally I'm for option 3. No one has been able to do option 2. Option 1 is stupid. Option 4 has some merit and is closest to RaW without looking at precedent.