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So I'm still new to fantasy and very new to my lizardmen, and I would really like some help in what is the proper way to use the units. I've only played 2 games so far. I lost against a small 500pt WoC list where it took a group of 18 saurus warriors with full company to beat 10 warriors of chaos with halberds (I think they had the MoK too) in combat and that was because I had a musician to break the tie. The 2nd game I won against Savage Orcs primarily thanks to my Slann, a lucky Dweller Below killing my opponents wizard, and me not knowing about the multiple shot adds -1 to hit. I probably should have lost. With this in mind I really feel like I don't know how to properly use my lizardmen. I know it should come in time but I don't want to end up buying a lot of stuff that I don't need or will never use. So could anyone enlighten me? I've tried looking the information up on my own but I'm not sure how up to date any of it is.

Some example questions would be:
What would be the average size of a Saurus Warrior block? Multiple small blocks or 1 big one or some combination?
Should a Slann always be with Temple Guard? Are Temple Guard fine without a Slann in the middle of them? How big of a unit is good?
What is the best way to move certain units? March blowpipe Skirmishers around the sides to flank or run javelin skirmishers straight at the opponent?
etc.

So far my force has:
1 Slann
1 Scar-Vet
2 Skink Priests
1 Skink Chief
36 Saurus Warriors
60 Skinks (20 painted as chameleon, 20 painted as regular, 20 unpainted)
3 Kroxigors
20 Temple Guard
8 Cold One Cavalry
3 Salamanders
1 Stegadon (can be played as any type)

Alright well, Lizardmen can be difficult to get to know, but are one of the best armies in the game when used right.

The Saurus should be in blocks of 24 and run them in 64 with hand weapon and shield. You will want two of these units.

As for the Slann, it doesnt need to be in the Temple Guard all the time, but it should be. The Temple Guard are good, but not really worth having on their own or with Kroxigor. Leave them with the Slann and a solid unit of 16-18 is usually good.

The Skinks have a lot of parts, one of which is magic. If you give a Skink priest cloak of feathers, it can fly behind enemies and channel Slann magic directly at them, this is always good and surprises enemies. Also, running them on flanks and after war machines is your best bet with them. Small quick units of 10 shooting their blow pipes can be very good, and also are good against T3 opponents.

I would put the Scarr Vet with a block of Saurus, or in the Cold One Cavalry. Then, put the Slann in the middle with the Suarus on either side, have the cavalry run one flank and the Skinks on the other.

Also the Salamanders are really good, take them. Also they are probably batter to take than Razordons, especially with support from other Skinks.

Sallies are a seriously amazing unit!
2400 points
Slann bsb life, mastery, bonus d6 and becalming diadom sometimes cup
Scar vet GW w venom
Priest level 2 dispel scroll
Around here prevailing builds seem to be 30 to 40 saurus w Slann,
1 to 2 mixed skink krox w 2 or 3 krox in each
2 to 4 10 man skinks
1 to 2 10 man chamealon
4 to 6 sallies
Sometimes a steggie

What works very well more me are three units of 25 saurus warriors with hand weapon and shield. It gives you some good blocks, when combined with hard hitters like stegs, that can win many combats. Also the number of models you have and their point cost is pretty awesome in my opinion

I tend to stay away from temple guard because a.they are expensive and b.it some what limits the mobility of the slann. I find when things do go bad it's much harder for temple guard to avoid the incoming threat that has plowed through the main line. A slann with the divine plaque running by itself is pretty hard to catch unless your opponent does some pretty good planning on how to position their own units. I find it strange that not more people use it.

Salamanders have a dual role. I use them to whittle down blocks and, in a pinch, as charge blockers. I only run two single salamanders because they have a very small footprint, are fairly fast, and you're not losing a lot of points if they are lost. Same goes with chameleon skinks, two units of 5 work wonders. In all using the minimum amout to achieve maximum effect. This is what these two units excell at.

One unit that I would recommend would be the skink chief on ancient steg w/ warspear. It really is a fantastic unit. Yes cannons really hurt if they get that lucky shot but sometimes you need to take that risk. The chief hitting with a block of saurus with lore of life buffs has a very good chance of breaking units on the charge. The number of str6 hits combined with the ranks you get from the saurus will cancel steadfast of most units and lead to some pretty good results.

Here's a rough list of what I run

Slann- extra power dice, discard 6's, loremaster life, divine plaque, cupped hands, bsb

skink priest- lvl1, dispel scroll

skink chief- ancient steg, warspear

x3 25 saurus units- FC

x2 5 chameleon skinks

3 terradons

1 regular steg

x2 single salamanders- extra skink

If I remember correctly it comes out to just under 2500 points. Also forgive me about the slann powers, I always forget the names. This list answers a lot of threats. terradons, chameleon skinks, and salamanders for harassing and dealing with other small skirmishers/ fast cav/warmachines. nice blocks of units, big monsters for 8th edition, and magic offense and defense that is pretty hard to deal with.

Yeah I agree, this looks good. But I would still have to suggest the 24 Saurus for 6 wide, and Temple Gaurd for, look out sir, and to help the Saurus. Though, they are rather pricey.

A Life or Light Slann shouldn't have any issues casting his spells due to sitting in a Temple Guard unit. The other blocks should be flanking his unit fairly closely and Skinks arn't really worth your effort to buff them up.

Saurus and Temple Guard aren't really very good units, in the UK they're seen in the Lizardmen lists that do the worst. It does depend though, for example if your opponent's game plan is to just push their combat units at yours then a Life Slann in Temple Guard can do well, even though it's doing well for the wrong reasons.

You can do combat-ish Lizard lists, but it's not really where they excel. If you don't want to play full avoidance, you can do alright with maybe 1 unit of Saurus and a unit of Skink-Krox, which are an awesome unit but need Light magic to really shine.

Overall though, the Zulu Dawn MSU shooty-avoidance style is probably the strongest way to play Lizardmen. Lots and lots of small, cheap units that surround the enemy and poison them off, double fleeing charges and generally being obnoxious whilst you shoot and magic off the enemy. A couple of Scar-Vets on Cold Ones are great for killing off small units, but the increasing amount of cannons in the game does mean they're becoming more of a liability.

 tmarichards wrote:
Saurus and Temple Guard aren't really very good units, in the UK they're seen in the Lizardmen lists that do the worst. It does depend though, for example if your opponent's game plan is to just push their combat units at yours then a Life Slann in Temple Guard can do well, even though it's doing well for the wrong reasons.

You can do combat-ish Lizard lists, but it's not really where they excel. If you don't want to play full avoidance, you can do alright with maybe 1 unit of Saurus and a unit of Skink-Krox, which are an awesome unit but need Light magic to really shine.

Overall though, the Zulu Dawn MSU shooty-avoidance style is probably the strongest way to play Lizardmen. Lots and lots of small, cheap units that surround the enemy and poison them off, double fleeing charges and generally being obnoxious whilst you shoot and magic off the enemy. A couple of Scar-Vets on Cold Ones are great for killing off small units, but the increasing amount of cannons in the game does mean they're becoming more of a liability.

This is totally correct in my opinion. Life Slann/TG builds are limiting and really only perform well against unbalanced armies and inexperienced players. While Light/Saurus lists are viable the skink cloud is hands down the most competitive build for lizards. It's a very different playstyle so might not be something you're keen on. Furthermore if you're just starting fantasy it's probably not the best way to learn. I've been running a skink cloud since the beginning of the year with some success, if you're keen to see how it really works check out:

http://littlewaaagh.blogspot.co.nz/search/label/Lizardmen

The blog has a bunch of lizardmen battle reports and posts of me talking about how Skink clouds work.

Cheers. Jeff

@Sneaky_Gobbo: I've been looking over your battle reports and they have been pretty helpful. I'm not 100% sure what you mean by double flee or how to properly set up for it but overall it has been pretty helpful. I only have 60 skinks and I'm trying to keep my army to 1 case at the moment so I'm not going to go full skink army just yet. Not until I get some more battles under my belt and figure out my preferred play-style. I also don't do competitions so I don't mind the uphill battle (my 40k army is tyranids which I started in 5th edition). So for now I'll probably be running mixed saurus/skink armies.

How are Kroxigors? Are they better on their own or with Skink cohorts?

How are Cold Ones? They seem to be good on a lone Scar-vet and used for flanking and hunting. Are the Cold One Cavalry just too costly to be an effective unit? Dumb question but what is the minimum width of the unit, 5 or 4? I thought they have to be at least 5 wide but most cavalry is sold in groups of 8 which would make more sense for 2 ranks of 4 wide, not 1 full rank + 3 in the second rank.

 shamroll wrote:
@Sneaky_Gobbo: I've been looking over your battle reports and they have been pretty helpful. I'm not 100% sure what you mean by double flee or how to properly set up for it but overall it has been pretty helpful. I only have 60 skinks and I'm trying to keep my army to 1 case at the moment so I'm not going to go full skink army just yet. Not until I get some more battles under my belt and figure out my preferred play-style. I also don't do competitions so I don't mind the uphill battle (my 40k army is tyranids which I started in 5th edition). So for now I'll probably be running mixed saurus/skink armies.

How are Kroxigors? Are they better on their own or with Skink cohorts?

How are Cold Ones? They seem to be good on a lone Scar-vet and used for flanking and hunting. Are the Cold One Cavalry just too costly to be an effective unit? Dumb question but what is the minimum width of the unit, 5 or 4? I thought they have to be at least 5 wide but most cavalry is sold in groups of 8 which would make more sense for 2 ranks of 4 wide, not 1 full rank + 3 in the second rank.

The Double Flee looks like this:

E=Enemy
T= Terradons

Step 1: You park two units in front of an enemy unit like below:

EEEEEEEE

TTT TTT

Step 2: he declares a charge on one of the units which flees

EEEEEEEE

TTT

TTT

Step 3: He then redirects and the second unit flees as well:

EEEEEEEE



TTT

TTT

Step 4: He fails his charge as he can't complete the charge as the original unit he attempted to charge prevents it. The trick of making it work is ensuring that you can control the flee angles and making sure that the first unit ends up in front of the second (you'd usually stagger the two units). If you can avoid other enemy units declaring charges (not always possible) you can tie up an enemy unit forever in this way. It works with any unit but is best done with Terradons (or any fast cavalry) as they have the feigned flight rule which means they can reset the double flee every turn.

For learning stick with a combined arms list tbh, I'm a big fan of light to buff saurus and skrox. Slann do not need to be in TG units to be safe either.

I would definitely only run Skrox in large Skink units. These can be very capable if you point them in the right direction (they're very good against monsters as they can't be stomped). Check out this link which is Jack Armstrong (a top UK lizard player) talking about how he uses Skrox.

http://baddice.co.uk/daily148/

Cold Ones are fantastic mounts for Scar Vets, who can be kitted out to be virtually unkillable with BRB items and their awesome statline. This is a great podcast on how to kit out scar vets:

http://baddice.co.uk/daily145/

Cold One Cavalry are a bit too expensive for what you get due largely to the low initiative meaning they have to get smacked before they can even go. I haven't ever used them though so I could be wrong and it could be cool to make a Cold One bus where the front rank is Scar vets and an Old Blood. As for how wide to make your ranks, I would always go with a minimum of 5 so you can count rank bonuses unless you're planning to hit something you know you will crush mercilessly.

Hope this helps, at the end of the day you can theoryhammer all you want on the net, but it probably won't really start to gel until you start playing plenty of games at 2k+ points which is where the rules really start to work correctly.

I'm still having some trouble using Saurus Warriors. In a recent 1000pt game against Skaven a unit of 20 Saurus just got slaughtered. I won the game but that was due to a little luck and a lot skinks and some Salamanders.

It didn't help that a Doom-Wheel killed off about half in the first turn. But when the unit got double charged by some Rat Ogres and a unit of clan rats, I killed maybe 3-4 rats. This has been pretty representative of all my fights using Saurus Warriors.

The only time I have actually won combat with Saurus Warriors is when a block of 18 with full company went up against a block of 10 Warriors of Chaos with Halberts, Shields, and Mark of Khorn i think. I only won because I had a musician to break the tie.

Shamroll,

It sounds to me like you want to think about how you win. I know that sounds odd. Saurus warriors have the combat stats they do. They are fairly good, but not the top fighters. So matched up against WoC warriors, they will loose a straight fight. Also, probably against a large enough unit of skaven, eventually they will loose a fight (since the skaven probably won't break and casualties may only slightly higher for them than for you).
SO..
You need to think about what your units do in combat maybe?
Park a character in the Saurus to make them more killy?
Or make sure you have a flank charge into the combat as well to get a much better combat res?
Or get some magic buffs on your saurus warriors before they are in combat so they perform better?

Out of the three above probably #3 is easiest with the slann, or #1 just by spending some points on a character.
Anyway, the main thing is to try to use your units together!

Step 1 - take slaan
Step 2 - take lore of life
Step 3 - take all the OP disciplines
Step 4 - take cupped hands
Step 5 - Cast dwellers with irresistible and give miscast to opponents level 4 wizard
Step 6 - you win


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is your Slaan disciplines to break the game.

Mystery, Becalming, Rumination
Cupped Hands on him.

Then take to skink priests give one a cube of darkness and the other a dispell scroll. You will own the magic phase so hard your opponent will probably give up by turn three assuming he even has much left on the table.

That last post is, unfortunately, just bad advice. It's one of the least competitive ways to play Lizardmen.

As always, it's worth remembering that just because something in your local metagame works well, doesn't mean it's actually any good. Unless something is consistently doing well in tournaments, played by and against good players, it's not valid as an argument for what is best. Hence why all the best Lizards tournament lists are chaff clouds, and the Life Slann combat lists are the ones that fluffy players turn up with because they're not looking to win the event.

 shamroll wrote:
I'm still having some trouble using Saurus Warriors. In a recent 1000pt game against Skaven a unit of 20 Saurus just got slaughtered. I won the game but that was due to a little luck and a lot skinks and some Salamanders.

It didn't help that a Doom-Wheel killed off about half in the first turn. But when the unit got double charged by some Rat Ogres and a unit of clan rats, I killed maybe 3-4 rats. This has been pretty representative of all my fights using Saurus Warriors.

The only time I have actually won combat with Saurus Warriors is when a block of 18 with full company went up against a block of 10 Warriors of Chaos with Halberts, Shields, and Mark of Khorn i think. I only won because I had a musician to break the tie.

I took on skaven with my lizards are realized that saurus are one of the best units for killing slaves, and temple guard are one of the bests for killing everything else.
I ran 3 level 1 priests (cube, dispel scroll, feedback scroll).
And then took 11 units of 12 saurus, 3 units of 10 temple guard, and 2 salamanders.

They did very well. With all to wall fighting infantry, he didn't have a good shot at anything. I lost as many combat as I won, but typically I didn't break, and his units on the flanks did. When he broke, he didn't rally. This opened up flanks, and saurus into the flanks make short work of any skaven. By giving my opponent almost no target of value, his shooting was largely neutralized.
When we were rolling up spells before deployment, I had my saurus on movement trays with no front flange, this gave the appears of 1 unit of temple guard and 2 huge unit of saurus on my display tray. With the appearance of only 3 units, my opponent didn't take cloud of corruption. But did take plague...

Having a thunderbolt and comet didn't hurt either. Plague hurt him more than me. I was taking at most ~12 toughness tests with T4. He was taking 40-50 with T3.

-Matt

 tmarichards wrote:
That last post is, unfortunately, just bad advice. It's one of the least competitive ways to play Lizardmen.

As always, it's worth remembering that just because something in your local metagame works well, doesn't mean it's actually any good. Unless something is consistently doing well in tournaments, played by and against good players, it's not valid as an argument for what is best. Hence why all the best Lizards tournament lists are chaff clouds, and the Life Slann combat lists are the ones that fluffy players turn up with because they're not looking to win the event.

If playing uncomped 8th its the best build out there.

tgf wrote:

 tmarichards wrote:
That last post is, unfortunately, just bad advice. It's one of the least competitive ways to play Lizardmen.

As always, it's worth remembering that just because something in your local metagame works well, doesn't mean it's actually any good. Unless something is consistently doing well in tournaments, played by and against good players, it's not valid as an argument for what is best. Hence why all the best Lizards tournament lists are chaff clouds, and the Life Slann combat lists are the ones that fluffy players turn up with because they're not looking to win the event.

If playing uncomped 8th its the best build out there.

Unless you are fighting skaven with a bell. T8 temple guard just vanish if the skaven player rolls the magic number near the middle of the bell curve.
I found that the last thing I want to do against skaven is run good sized blocks on infantry.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

tgf wrote:

 tmarichards wrote:
That last post is, unfortunately, just bad advice. It's one of the least competitive ways to play Lizardmen.

As always, it's worth remembering that just because something in your local metagame works well, doesn't mean it's actually any good. Unless something is consistently doing well in tournaments, played by and against good players, it's not valid as an argument for what is best. Hence why all the best Lizards tournament lists are chaff clouds, and the Life Slann combat lists are the ones that fluffy players turn up with because they're not looking to win the event.

If playing uncomped 8th its the best build out there.

Unless you are fighting skaven with a bell. T8 temple guard just vanish if the skaven player rolls the magic number near the middle of the bell curve.
I found that the last thing I want to do against skaven is run good sized blocks on infantry.

-Matt

@TFG I'm with TMARichards, Life/TG is the least competitive way to run Lizards. I'm not saying it isn't good but it's not as good as double light/saurus or skink clouds.

The main issue that comes out of Life/TG is the positioning of the Slann within a unit in the second ranks. That means Wizards are free to move 24.1" away from the Slann to avoid becoming Becalmed and nuke the unit with Dwellers, Pit, FT etc, all they want. A Slann on his own or in the front rank of a unit can't be caught out like this. Then after you factor in that TG are overcosted, make your Slann less manueverable and the opportunity cost of other toys the army just doesn't stack up. Basically the list is for people who can't figure out how to protect their Slann without dumping 100's of points into an inefficient unit. People hate Dweller's because it feels so unfair when your toys just come off, but it's not as dangerous as Lizard lists which absolutely control the board while still throwing out their own nukes.

Your correct about the best powers though and magic defence.

I once saw a game on Universal Battle where what Matt described occurred, it was hilarious.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

tgf wrote:

 tmarichards wrote:
That last post is, unfortunately, just bad advice. It's one of the least competitive ways to play Lizardmen.

As always, it's worth remembering that just because something in your local metagame works well, doesn't mean it's actually any good. Unless something is consistently doing well in tournaments, played by and against good players, it's not valid as an argument for what is best. Hence why all the best Lizards tournament lists are chaff clouds, and the Life Slann combat lists are the ones that fluffy players turn up with because they're not looking to win the event.

If playing uncomped 8th its the best build out there.

Unless you are fighting skaven with a bell. T8 temple guard just vanish if the skaven player rolls the magic number near the middle of the bell curve.
I found that the last thing I want to do against skaven is run good sized blocks on infantry.

-Matt

I guess you won't be casting flesh to stone again against a bell lol.

I must agree with TMArichards. I run a Stegadon spam Lizards list and Light on big blocks of saurus is verging on being TFG. Also running 60+ saurus in a unit.

For starters, properly using Lizardmen = playing as many dinosaurs as possible! Rule of cool applies here!

I've had success with my Saurus in 30-strong blocks, 6x5. A bit pricey, perhaps, but then again having those extra bodies really helps as I find them in attrition combats quite often in 8th. The days of running them 18 strong in 6x3 are long gone and going just 4 ranks deep just isn't cutting it for me.

Also, the Slann is amazing and great, but it's not impossible to run a Oldblood on Carnosaur led list. The Engine gives a +3 to dispel caster which is pretty good in its own right, so as long as you're able to make up for the lack of magic on your own phases you can do well enough on the magic defense side. Just something to keep in mind if you're trying to come up with a complete strategy and the Slann is misplaced (Ex: List contains no saurus, so where to put a Slann?)

Just my two cents!

In run a slann, life, cupped hands, rumination, mystery, becalming cogitation,
In a unit of 30 temple guard and a scarvet with halderd and dragon helm.
A unit of 33 saurus with scarvent on cold one with GW,
2x3 salamanders
3x10 skirmishers
2x5 chameleon skinks.

Both blocks go 7x5, I have never lost, drawn once and won about 6 times with this. My temple guard block is legendary in my club, and neither of the blocks has been wiped out. Ever.

People learn to hate flesh to stone. Learn to fear anything initiative based, stop it at all costs. Then win lots.

^ this is what i was talk about, it truely rocks face. The only way to really deal with it is death magic or a really good cc blender. This is pretty much exactly what one of the guys plays here and its super quality. Depending on my build i either end up steed of shadowing (if i have it) my Doombull to the flank or rear of the temple guard (he will kill the entire squad usually) or purple sun if playing death shadow heard stone and the purple sun is very difficult to get off with becalming. The skimishers usually don't give me issues because i can use miasma to remove their poison. The salamanders are a real bitch though you have to use big chaffe like chariots and razorgors to deal with them. Rock solid list.

gork and possibly mork wrote:
In run a slann, life, cupped hands, rumination, mystery, becalming cogitation,
In a unit of 30 temple guard and a scarvet with halderd and dragon helm.
A unit of 33 saurus with scarvent on cold one with GW,
2x3 salamanders
3x10 skirmishers
2x5 chameleon skinks.

Both blocks go 7x5, I have never lost, drawn once and won about 6 times with this. My temple guard block is legendary in my club, and neither of the blocks has been wiped out. Ever.

People learn to hate flesh to stone. Learn to fear anything initiative based, stop it at all costs. Then win lots.

No offence mate but it's really not the best that Lizards can bring to the table. What it does is very brutal at basic levels of play where opponents aren't running optimised armies and don't know how to approach the bunker unit, but at higher levels it'll get circles run around it. As you say you've only played 7 games with it in a club environment. If you take it to low comp tourneys and perform better than the skink clouds though I'll happily eat my words. The only really overpowered thing in that list is the 6 Salamanders.

A good way to quickly figure out what is powerful for any army is to look at what gets comped hard in ETC/UK tourney comp systems. With the exception of the 6 Salamanders your list is permissible in ETC, SCGT 2012/2013, and is only a 9/20 before the 6 Salamanders are applied (at which point it becomes -7).

But hey this is just one man's opinion, if it works for you keep doing it........

OK, so this is what I have gathered/learned so far.

It seems to me that WHFB is a little more strategic. You have to plan out your moves in advance as well as the potential enemy movements. More similar to chess. Charging as the first action means you really have to commit to an action early and if I'm too far away, I have to account for my opponents potential charge.
I was too concerned with trying to pit unit against unit as opposed to using multiple units together.
While Life seems like a sturdy lore and not terrible, a more offensive based lore is better for Lizardmen. Light seems to be good to support your saurus and make a tough unit more offensive. Metal seems to be good in skink lists to handle high armor armies as well as making it easier to turn those poison shots into unsaved wounds with the armor reduction. Death also seems to get some play but mostly for Spirit Leech and Doom and Darkness. I'm not sure if Spirit Leech can be used to deal with Monsters or take out Monster mounts, but that would make it pretty good.

Sneaky_Gobbo wrote:

gork and possibly mork wrote:
In run a slann, life, cupped hands, rumination, mystery, becalming cogitation,
In a unit of 30 temple guard and a scarvet with halderd and dragon helm.
A unit of 33 saurus with scarvent on cold one with GW,
2x3 salamanders
3x10 skirmishers
2x5 chameleon skinks.

Both blocks go 7x5, I have never lost, drawn once and won about 6 times with this. My temple guard block is legendary in my club, and neither of the blocks has been wiped out. Ever.

People learn to hate flesh to stone. Learn to fear anything initiative based, stop it at all costs. Then win lots.

No offence mate but it's really not the best that Lizards can bring to the table. What it does is very brutal at basic levels of play where opponents aren't running optimised armies and don't know how to approach the bunker unit, but at higher levels it'll get circles run around it. As you say you've only played 7 games with it in a club environment. If you take it to low comp tourneys and perform better than the skink clouds though I'll happily eat my words. The only really overpowered thing in that list is the 6 Salamanders.

A good way to quickly figure out what is powerful for any army is to look at what gets comped hard in ETC/UK tourney comp systems. With the exception of the 6 Salamanders your list is permissible in ETC, SCGT 2012/2013, and is only a 9/20 before the 6 Salamanders are applied (at which point it becomes -7).

But hey this is just one man's opinion, if it works for you keep doing it........

This, pretty much. It can easily deal with mediocre opponents but falls shorts of actual competitive LM army lists. Sure, you cannot make a unit of TG run, but your opponent will either avoid it or force some characteristics tempalte tests to wipe them out. The list basically has two big infantry blocks and that's it. Either avoid or tarpit them then deal with the Skinks and achieve victory. Becalming mostly only works vs. mediocre opponents, good opponents can easily avoid the 24'' restriction.