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Quick question happened in a few games didn't bother me till today after some thinking.

Can a model roll his armor save after a successful look out sir?

Squad with IC 2++ sv get 10 wounds. Player puts all 10 wounds on IC via wound allocation since IC is in front. Any fail saves he look out sir and put the wound on the squad. Then he would roll that models armor save to see if it dies.

Thanks in advance!

There's only ever one save.

Read the current FAQ (those this update goes back to September, IIRC) If there's a character in the unit, if anyone has Feel No Pain, or if there are mixed saves in the unit, you always roll Look Out Sir BEFORE saves.

You still couldn't pull what your opponent was trying to do even in the rulebook, though. The rulebook, prior to the FAQ, told us that you used Look Out Sir when a wound was allocated to the character. In a unit with mixed saves, this was ALWAYS before the save was rolled. In a unit which all had the same saves, you could roll the saves FIRST, and THEN Look Out Sir if the wounds got to the character, but you still only ever got to save once for a given wound.

Bear in mind also that saves are technically taken one at a time; you only ever roll more than one together to save time. If the character with the 2+ save is in front, you can't roll 10 saves at once. At most you could roll as many as he has remaining wounds. Because if/when he dies, any remaining wounds get allocated to the guys behind him to take on their own saves.

Not just cheese, but cheating. Sounds kinda deliberate from the look of your example too.

I could be wrong as its been a bit since ive looked at my rule book(my homie is borrowing it) but i was under the impression that you could

roll for your saves

after failing a save you opt to LOS! and if roll is successful the wound is passed but is unsavable(unit sacrifices himself in order to save the Ch fully knowing he will die), and if you fail the LOS! then the wound is taken as normal.

Am i completely wrong or does it work like that?

No, LoS is taken before saves. You choose to take a LoS roll, or you can take the saves directly(which can't be LoS'd after you roll them)

Wolfnid420 wrote:
I could be wrong as its been a bit since ive looked at my rule book(my homie is borrowing it) but i was under the impression that you could

roll for your saves

after failing a save you opt to LOS! and if roll is successful the wound is passed but is unsavable(unit sacrifices himself in order to save the Ch fully knowing he will die), and if you fail the LOS! then the wound is taken as normal.

Am i completely wrong or does it work like that?

It works like that in the rulebook in exactly one situation. That where everyone's save is exactly the same. If their saves are different, you LoS before the Save, because when saves a different you are never allocating Unsaved Wounds, only Yet-to-be-Saved Wounds.

But they FAQ'd it so you always take LoS before saves because some people were misreading what the rulebook said, and it was easier to just make LoS always before saves rather than spend time explaining the difference in what kind of wounds are allocated.

And to stop the sillyness of a TDA wearing character in front of a squad taking all the incoming fire and bouncing any failed saves to the back ranks. Effectively giving the unit a 2+ save.

 Grey Templar wrote:
And to stop the sillyness of a TDA wearing character in front of a squad taking all the incoming fire and bouncing any failed saves to the back ranks. Effectively giving the unit a 2+ save.

Which was never the case. In the rulebook Look Out Sir is taken when wounds are allocated. If saves are different, you allocate wounds and then save them. If saves are the same, you save wounds and then allocate them. At no point in a unit where saves differ do you ever allocate unsaved wounds.

 Grey Templar wrote:
And to stop the sillyness of a TDA wearing character in front of a squad taking all the incoming fire and bouncing any failed saves to the back ranks. Effectively giving the unit a 2+ save.

I was hoping for some iridium armored sillyness, im not gonna lie because id have 1-3, 2 wound guys to bounce em around lol but alas it was an afterthought! not a plan lol

Chrysis wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
And to stop the sillyness of a TDA wearing character in front of a squad taking all the incoming fire and bouncing any failed saves to the back ranks. Effectively giving the unit a 2+ save.

Which was never the case. In the rulebook Look Out Sir is taken when wounds are allocated. If saves are different, you allocate wounds and then save them. If saves are the same, you save wounds and then allocate them. At no point in a unit where saves differ do you ever allocate unsaved wounds.

It was depending on how you read the rules, which were horribly unclear.

No, they were pretty clear. Have a look at the steps, specifically the bolded headings on page 15.

Base Case (all saves are the same):
Take Saves
Allocate Unsaved Wounds and Remove Casualties.

We then have two about Random Allocation and the Empty Wound pool.

Mixed Saves ("f the target unit contains several different saving throws, you'll need to follow this process instead of the one presented above. "):
Allocate Wounds
Take Saves & Remove Casualties.

And then from Look out Sir! on the next page:
"When a Wound (or unsaved Wound) is allocated to one of your characters...." (emphasis mine)

So which of the two above has a step where Unsaved Wounds are allocated? Only the base case. Look out Sir! triggers on allocation, so could never trigger on a failed save when saves are different.

This isn't a vague wording problem, this is black and white. Taking your 2+ and then passing off the fail was only ever possible when everyone else had a 2+ as well.

GT - actually they were clear, as you had no choice in the matter once you had different saves to be made - you allocate then roll saves.

It's one of those rules I think some have read and misread.

After a careful read and implementing the FAQ (which I can assure you a lot of players never even know about) it clearly states that now if you have a character you follow the mixed saves points.

I.E

You get Wounded

First allocation is to your Character as he is closest and he elects to LoS - passes - closest model takes the save.

Second wound goes to your character (Still closest model) and he elects to LoS - fails - Character takes the save - fails - dies.

Third wound goes to next normal guy - takes save - passes

and so on.

Can't believe we've done it wrong at my gaming club for so long. It was one of those rules you read and misinterpreted then just become "accustomed" to it. Now it makes much more sense.

So you are unable to pass wounds around with los very interesting! The only FAQ I have is feb13 but I will need to try and prove my case to the TO. He is like the rest of us thinking it is possible to do.

You can bounce wounds around to a certain extent, but you can't use Look Out Sir to take multiple saves against the same wound. Whoever rolls a save for the wound takes it if the save is failed.

 gr1m_dan wrote:
It's one of those rules I think some have read and misread.

After a careful read and implementing the FAQ (which I can assure you a lot of players never even know about) it clearly states that now if you have a character you follow the mixed saves points.

I.E

You get Wounded

First allocation is to your Character as he is closest and he elects to LoS - passes - closest model takes the save.

Second wound goes to your character (Still closest model) and he elects to LoS - fails - Character takes the save - fails - dies.

Third wound goes to next normal guy - takes save - passes

and so on.

Can't believe we've done it wrong at my gaming club for so long. It was one of those rules you read and misinterpreted then just become "accustomed" to it. Now it makes much more sense.

Is it at all possible to get page/paragraphs so I can prove my case.?

lynxstrife wrote:

 gr1m_dan wrote:
It's one of those rules I think some have read and misread.

After a careful read and implementing the FAQ (which I can assure you a lot of players never even know about) it clearly states that now if you have a character you follow the mixed saves points.

I.E

You get Wounded

First allocation is to your Character as he is closest and he elects to LoS - passes - closest model takes the save.

Second wound goes to your character (Still closest model) and he elects to LoS - fails - Character takes the save - fails - dies.

Third wound goes to next normal guy - takes save - passes

and so on.

Can't believe we've done it wrong at my gaming club for so long. It was one of those rules you read and misinterpreted then just become "accustomed" to it. Now it makes much more sense.

Is it at all possible to get page/paragraphs so I can prove my case.?

You have to look at both the patched section on p15, now called Mixed Saves and Characters, in combination with the patched LOS rules on p16. Make sure you are reading with the relevant paragraphs updated per the FAQ.

Work for me!