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Curze and the Night lords were part of the 2nd wave to land on Isstvan 5 to "destroy Horus" and the other traitors. We know how that turned out, but my question is, why were the Night lords trusted, at this point:

-Curze jumped Dorn, then fled from punishment, killing Fists and Emperors Children in the process.

-wiped out his home planet.

I dont see how the Night Haunter could have been trusted after that, and allowed to join the force sent to Isstvan to wipe out Horus.

anyone have any answers?

Desperate times call for desperate measures. Cruze's behavior, although clearly erratic to say the least, did not implicate him as an ally of Horus.

Also, Fulgrim mentioned that Lorgar was a traitor when he first tried to sway Ferrus, but he too was trusted.

Admittedly, the heat of the moment and a hammer to the head (or a simple editorial mistake) could explain this apparent forgetting


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
Desperate times call for desperate measures. Cruze's behavior, although clearly erratic to say the least, did not implicate him as an ally of Horus.

I second this.

 Just Dave wrote:
Also, Fulgrim mentioned that Lorgar was a traitor when he first tried to sway Ferrus, but he too was trusted.

Admittedly, the heat of the moment and a hammer to the head (or a simple editorial mistake) could explain this apparent forgetting


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
Desperate times call for desperate measures. Cruze's behavior, although clearly erratic to say the least, did not implicate him as an ally of Horus.

I second this.

Im pretty sure Fulgrim was the one who was send to bring Ferrus over, and led to a bit of a dustup woth said hammer to the face.

 Brother Sergeant Bob wrote:
Im pretty sure Fulgrim was the one who was send to bring Ferrus over, and led to a bit of a dustup woth said hammer to the face.

Yes (and Fulgrim was one of the known traitors already on Isstvan); but it seems he revealed Lorgar's allegiance to Horus, despite Lorgar being assigned to the second wave of believed-loyalists.

What the other two said, but I do struggle to believe why they were included at Istvaan V, especially at a time when you weren't sure who to trust.

Suspicions should have been running high about them, I guess with the Word Bearers there was a large contingent of them still located at Terra keeping up appearances.

The Night Lords though were on the run from reprisal after the destruction of Nostramo, I could have accepted it a bit easier if it had been Horus who bought them to Istvaan V for the Dropsite Massacre.

Do we know if Dorn actually knew the Night Lords were in the second wave? Maybe they could've joined the plans without Dorn's knowing?

Seems to me to show how utterly unbelievable the Heresy was at first. It made Curse look trustworthy by comparison.

 Just Dave wrote:
Do we know if Dorn actually knew the Night Lords were in the second wave? Maybe they could've joined the plans without Dorn's knowing?

He put the whole plan together if I recall correctly, with council from Corax, Ferrus and Vulkan. I think it's in Fulgrim?

 Manchu wrote:
Seems to me to show how utterly unbelievable the Heresy was at first. It made Curse look trustworthy by comparison.

Yeah, I see your point but still, having one less legion that you can't trust could have been beneficial. I guess it might have been a case of Dorn at least knowing where the Night Lords are.

It's a matter of hierarchy of values. Curze was a dysfunctional brother but still a brother compared to the traitors. It's like how in M41/42, Abaddon knows that if he tried to get out of the Eye through any route other than Cadia all SM Chapters would lay aside everything else, including their ancient grievances against one another, to stop him. The same mindset in reverse is what Horus was relying on to effectuate the massacre -- namely, that the loyalists would believe that nothing was more important to any of them as stopping him, Fulgrim, Mortarion, and Angron.

The Night Lords were erratic madmen. Dorn probably thought it unlikely they had the guile to be traitors and as long as they were killing his enemies, that'd be ok.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
The Night Lords were erratic madmen. Dorn probably thought it unlikely they had the guile to be traitors and as long as they were killing his enemies, that'd be ok.

I dont know, seeing as how Dorn himself was the one that Night Haunter nearly killed.

Curze had personally slain members of other Legions, blown up his homeworld and then gone on the run and ignored the Emperors request to get back in line, whilst dodging the Imperial fleet that had been sent after him. He had been on the run since then burning and pillaging. It's pretty clear that he wasn't on the Imperium side anymore.

Sure Curze was sidelined at the outbreak of the Heresy because it was more important, but all that and to just welcome him back into the fold seems dumb, needs arise and all that but it's still dumb.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
It's pretty clear that he wasn't on the Imperium side anymore.

The bolded phrase refers to a concept that needs more explaining than you are giving it. What it meant to be "on the Imperium's side" before the HH is different than after the HH. Even ignoring all other tensions, the Emperor called out Magnus, Angron, and Lorgar in one way or another prior to the HH. Despite this, those Primarchs and their Legions were considered "on the Imperium's side" up until they joined Horus, i.e., when the definition of that concept changed or was crystallized. Curze was clearly out of line at this point but whether he was any more out of line than, say, Lorgar is pretty arguable -- especially given what he was like before blowing up Nostromo. It's not like his erratic behavior was totally unknown before then. After Istvaan III, not being "on the Imperium's side" took on a much clearer definition: i.e., anyone who was allied with Horus in his treachery. By that standard, Curze and the Night Lords were apparently "on the Imperium's side" -- just like the Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, and Iron Warriors were.

What welcoming back into the fold? Seems more like an enemy of my enemy situation, with Dorn believing the Night Lords considered basically everyone their enemy and they'd jump at the chance to slaughter some other marines.

He would have been right too, but guessed the wrong slaughterees.

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
It's pretty clear that he wasn't on the Imperium side anymore.

The bolded phrase refers to a concept that needs more explaining than you are giving it. What it meant to be "on the Imperium's side" before the HH is different than after the HH. Even ignoring all other tensions, the Emperor called out Magnus, Angron, and Lorgar in one way or another prior to the HH. Despite this, those Primarchs and their Legions were considered "on the Imperium's side" up until they joined Horus, i.e., when the definition of that concept changed or was crystallized. Curze was clearly out of line at this point but whether he was any more out of line than, say, Lorgar is pretty arguable -- especially given what he was like before blowing up Nostromo. It's not like his erratic behavior was totally unknown before then. After Istvaan III, not being "on the Imperium's side" took on a much clearer definition: i.e., anyone who was allied with Horus in his treachery. By that standard, Curze and the Night Lords were apparently "on the Imperium's side" -- just like the Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, and Iron Warriors were.

Night Haunter was on the run and would not return to heel.

Those traitor Primarchs that had been reprimanded before the Heresy at least looked like they were doing what they were told to, so no suspicion was raised against them when the all went to hell. Even though Fulgrim outright stated to Ferrus that Lorgar was a traitor to, I suppose this was enough to justify their inclusion in the assault on Istvaan V.

Night Haunter was not hiding the fact that he no longer felt he had a place within the Imperium, that's the difference. If the Heresy had not broken out and everything was still hunky dory, the Emperor would have had to act on the issue of the Night Lords. If after the Emperors demands for Curze to return to Terra had not been met, their might have been another fight for the Space Wolves on their hands.

Obviously this is from my point of view, as we know from the Heresy series that Dorn deemed it a good idea to involve them in the attack, just seems very DURR to me.

I would imagine it was a case of better the devil you know as far as including the Night Lords in the Istvaan V attack.

After all, their skills in combat and terror tactics could have been a useful asset.

Of course, Dorn didn't know wheir true loyalties were did he?

There is no logical reason for why the Night Lords were sent.

"Oh, what's this? Several legions have simultaneously gone rogue and turned against the Imperium? Well, let's send the loyal legions to go take care of them, including that one legion that slaughtered several members of another loyal legion and nearly killed its primarch, who blew up its own home planet and is currently on the run from us and killing any of our forces who manage to catch up to them."

No, no. "Enemy of my enemy" doesn't apply here.

It's just one of those aspects of the setting that you have to gloss over. In the lore, the Night Lords were sent along with the others. It's a little late to retcon now that we know what Curze had been up to prior to the Heresy.

Perhaps the command from to send the NL was actually sent by Horus but the transmission was disguised to make it look like the Loyalists sent it?

Either that or the command was intercepted and subtle details changed, like when the Space Wolves attacked Prospero and were told to kill Magnus instead of capture him?

It makes perfect sense to me. The HH was the biggest deal ever. You guys act like it's just a given that four Legions would rebel, probably because you've never known otherwise. For the characters in the story, however, this is a thing that changes everything else. It is entirely plausible that Dorn and the other (seeming) loyalists could believe that such a massive event could bring Konrad to his senses.

Well I'm glad it does to you Manchu.

I said myself that the Heresy was a bigger deal than one Legion stray Legion. But that's exactly it, why trust a Legion that has already gone rogue when you don't know who to trust.

Whether or not they were on Horus side is beside the point, they had already shown that they couldn't be trusted. To involve them in something as serious as what happened on Istvaan seems beyond stupid. Lorgar, Perturabo and Alpharius had at least covered up where there true loyalty lay.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Well I'm glad it does to you Manchu.

Well, if we're going to be passive aggressive about it, I'm saddened that you cannot make sense of it, PR.

Konrad was nuts. He was on the lam. But then gak hit the fan and he appeared to get his priorities straight, coming back to the fold to stand with his brothers against the traitors. This would have been a relief to the likes of Dorn, who I'm sure did not relish the prospect of chasing the Night Haunter through the Void.

I agree that it would take an enormous catastrophe to make Konrad's wacky behavior forgivable. Fortunately, the Primarchs could not conceive of a greater catastrophe than Horus's treachery.

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Well I'm glad it does to you Manchu.

Well, if we're going to be passive aggressive about it, I'm saddened that you cannot make sense of it, PR.

Konrad was nuts. He was on the lamb. But then gak hit the fan and he appeared to get his priorities straight, coming back to the fold to stand with his brothers against the traitors. This would have been a relief to the likes of Dorn, who I'm sure did not relish the prospect of chasing the Night Haunter through the Void.

I agree that it would take an enormous catastrophe to make Konrad's wacky behavior forgivable. Fortunately, the Primarchs could not conceive of a greater catastrophe than Horus's treachery.

It was your little comment about 'us' acting like its a given etc, which isn't the case. Even one Legion rebelling should send an alarm bell sounding off, regardless of how unhinged the Night Lords are, if one can decide to go off and do what they like, they all can do the same. The Night Lords, according the 2nd edition Chaos Codex, were possibly going to be disbanded due to their actions. That's serious business, only being eclipsed by the Heresy.

It makes Dorn even seem more of a tit, not raising an eye brow when Curze decided to comeback, I wonder if he was rubbing his hands or twirling his imaginary moustache when he agreed to Dorns summons.

I get what you are saying but I don't agree with you, maybe we get an insight as to what happened and how the Night Lords were bought back from the brink.

The Night Lords knew they were in poop

IA: Night Lords wrote: Blasphemous acts and horrendous violence were the signature of the Night Lords' visitations, the fleet pressing ever onwards so as to avoid retribution

IA: Night Lords wrote:No longer did Night Haunter crusade in the name of the Emperor, who he now denounced as a weak hypocrite without the courage to admit that his own doctrines were just as extreme.

and it's not like the Imperium didn't know what was going on

IA: Night Lords wrote:Few civilised worlds were totally without blemish, and the pretexts on which Night Haunter launched full-scale invasions became less and less credible, Imperial reconnaissance craft followed in the wake of the Night Lords' fleet, reporting back to the Emperor's throne room across unimaginable stretches of time and space.

Perhaps I am confused about the timeline?

- Emperor finds Curze, subsequently uses him to terrify worlds into compliance through atrocity

- Dorn confronts Curze after Fulgrim passes on Curze's misgivings about the Emperor to Dorn

- Dorn gets his ass handed to him

- Curze accepts being arrested then rejects it and kills the SM trying to imprison him

- Curze rejoins his fleet and blows up Nostromo because it's an irredeemable gak hole

- [missing info?]

- Curze joins up with his (apparently) loyal brothers to confront the traitors

As far as I can tell, everyone always knew Curze was the way he was. Also, who but the Emperor has the right to arrest him? If he felt he was improperly imprisoned, who but the Emperor could gainsay him? Similarly, who but the Emperor could gainsay Curze's destruction of Nostromo?

What happened with Curze was an argument as far as I can tell -- and NOT a rebellion. Internally, Curze concludes the Emperor is a hypocrite and that he will no longer fight for the Imperium. But none of Ferrus, Dorn, Vulkan, or Corax know that.

As far as they know, the HH is just as shocking to Curze as the rest of them -- dwarfing everything else, including past friendships (Curze's friendship with Fulgrim) and grievances (his enmity with Dorn).

I have to agree with Manchu, but for a slightly different reason.

Dorn and the other loyalist primarchs weren't just in disbelief at Horus's heresy. They were desperate. Assaulting four legions who hold a fortified position? You'd bring everyone who conceivably could help, because it would be a horrible bloodbath. If Curze suddenly came to heel and offered to join the assault, Dorn would probably jump at the chance to utilize him.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
I have to agree with Manchu, but for a slightly different reason. [...] They were desperate.

Actually -- we agree on that, too!

 Manchu wrote:
Desperate times call for desperate measures. Cruze's behavior, although clearly erratic to say the least, did not implicate him as an ally of Horus.

And I get that, I just think they were dumb.

And they were

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I just think they were dumb.

Sure, anything can look dumb if you refuse to understand it.

Desperate times do indeed call for desperate allies, and again, how do Space Marines make up for their wrong deeds without being declared traitors? They go on a crusade against the enemies of the Imperium.. At this point, Curze and his men were sent against enemies, probably to make up for their blunders.

 Manchu wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I just think they were dumb.

Sure, anything can look dumb if you refuse to understand it.

Who's refusing to understand, I've said that I get why, but in my opinion they were wrong to include the Night Lords. Am I not allowed to have an opinion Manchu?