Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

They're not quite complete, now are they? That counts as ruined, in my book!

Joyboozer wrote:
The ruined temple walls aren't very ruined.

Or exciting.

And probably scored heavily with print lines.

Another update.

Deadzone - SHIPPING SOON!

Hello backers!

The Deadzone ™ tiles left China a couple of weeks ago, and have arrived in their respective countries. Mantic and The Combat Company have confirmed that customs has told them the parcels are ready, and my freight company is ready to release them to me. That means that the Deadzone tiles will be shipping this month to those backers who ordered ONLY the Deadzone tiles.

As a reminder - these are shipping because otherwise Mantic would have had to refund everyone in their campaign that ordered them, and I couldn't let that happen.

So why not do it with Scrap Yard, which is finished?

101 Display Boards sets, and 81 Skirmisher tile sets left China at a cost of $4,348.72 -- which does not take into account what it will cost to ship them out to the backers. This is about $700 shy of what it would cost to ship AN ENTIRE FREIGHT CONTAINER containing a few dozen palettes.

No, really. And if that blows your mind, you're not alone.

So I'm still waiting on the factory to update me on the last of the tiles, and we're using this time to improve on the box design. Right now we're looking at the possibility of including a carrying handle ON THE BOX, which would make me one happy panda.

In the interim I will keep everyone updated as new samples come in, and do my best to get painted tiles posted in a hurry. I should have the last of Rolling Fields in the next few days!

Thank you for your patience and understanding,

Justin 'misterjustin' McCoy

Still no word on when the remaining tiles will be produced. But the boxes now have handles, so I guess that is something.

I assume the money aspect of that post was to explain to people why we are waiting for scrap yard to ship out when its already finished

 ironicsilence wrote:
I assume the money aspect of that post was to explain to people why we are waiting for scrap yard to ship out when its already finished

I believe so.

Is there any public information available regarding why Mantic would have had to refund backers who ordered the Deadzone tiles if they didn't ship right now?

I am sure it wasn't misterjustin's intent, but this update really reads like "Mantic's backers are more important than you--sorry! But look! New box options. Yay!"

Careful, people will accuse you of ranting and raving. Or being a greedy bastard.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Is there any public information available regarding why Mantic would have had to refund backers who ordered the Deadzone tiles if they didn't ship right now?

Buggered if I know, wave 2 of Deadzone doesn't ship 'til June. Looks like I'll get my SW board for it three months before then.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Careful, people will accuse you of ranting and raving. Or being a greedy bastard.

I know! It sucks being a ranting loon that sees Kickstarters as a way for companies to start/expand product lines and not as the charities that they really are. I should just get with the program and reject any notion of accountability on the part of companies that blow past deadlines. No reason for them to extend a goodwill gesture to fans, or try to make amends in some fashion for their blunders*. Nope. I'm a loon along with you, SlaveToDorkness.

I can not help but wonder what magical clause Mantic's Kickstarter had that protects and rewards their backers over SWM's backers, though.










*Lest this comment get taken out of context, I hold companies responsible for the issues related to their subcontractors. WGF's failings are SWM's failings as far as I am concerned. Since SWM has been entrusted with my money SWM bears all responsibility regarding WGF's delays.

 Azazelx wrote:

Joyboozer wrote:
The ruined temple walls aren't very ruined.

Or exciting.

And probably scored heavily with print lines.

I love how cheerful and optimistic you can be, dude.

But seriously, have there been print line problems in the past with Secret Weapons stuff? All the bases I purchased have been fine.

I'm just happy I only went in for tiles, the walls do have me feeling a bit tepid.

Well, I got a few bits of large scenery in their "Bag'o'crap" sales, and as part of that, for those prices, no problem at all. Excited and grateful to have them in fact. They had casting bubbles which were easy enough to fix which is the reason they were in there, not the print lines. But I have to say that the 3-d print lines are pretty bad - and for a more premium product and price, I'm a bit more dubious...

Ugh, those are pretty noticeable print lines.

I got some of their steel drums recently, and they were 100%, absolutely what I expected... no lines like that at all. So, I guess it depends on the product.

Still, getting kind of bummed about the delays on this... if I receive my Games & Gears boards first (which are supposed to ship in May) that will be a blow to this product, imo. I pledged for both and want both to succeed, but they do fulfill similar roles (a gaming surface!) but the G&G campaign started significantly later, and may deliver earlier.

I was planning on using my tiles from SW as a display board, but had to chop off a piece of my Frontline MegaMat to use for that instead, in the interim...

I'm also no longer excited about getting these tiles, its been so long that i've already moved forward on other table projects. If it was possible I'd likely cancel my pledge

 Azazelx wrote:
Well, I got a few bits of large scenery in their "Bag'o'crap" sales, and as part of that, for those prices, no problem at all. Excited and grateful to have them in fact. They had casting bubbles which were easy enough to fix which is the reason they were in there, not the print lines. But I have to say that the 3-d print lines are pretty bad - and for a more premium product and price, I'm a bit more dubious...

It's entirely likely that the stuff in the bag of crap.. Is crap, and not what the retail product looks like.

 ironicsilence wrote:
I'm also no longer excited about getting these tiles, its been so long that i've already moved forward on other table projects. If it was possible I'd likely cancel my pledge

I would very likely do the same, and get a GW board. The FW tiles that were not available when I did pledge make it seem like a resonable, if expensive, choice.

Edit: I should clarify, I got these as a portable gaming table choice, and also got the table from Warsmith later, which I have in hand now. Now these are likely to be a permanent setup, and I think the bigger tiles from GW would be just as nice.

Its a shame too as when this KS first hit I was pretty excited about it but the delays have just killed it for me and in the end I just ended up making new boards instead of waiting for these. When they do finally come I'll likely try to resell them at as close to break even as I can, or they will end up in the closet with all the other gaming nonsense i dont use

I mean, I'm still interested in this, it's just that I had to come up with another solution for my display board in the interim... I also got the Warsmith board whalemusic, and it's an interesting solution too (but very different). Not sure what got me to pledge for so many different board solutions at once I guess I'll do a nice big comparison post / review when they all come in!

 RiTides wrote:
Ugh, those are pretty noticeable print lines.

I got some of their steel drums recently, and they were 100%, absolutely what I expected... no lines like that at all. So, I guess it depends on the product.

Still, getting kind of bummed about the delays on this... if I receive my Games & Gears boards first (which are supposed to ship in May) that will be a blow to this product, imo. I pledged for both and want both to succeed, but they do fulfill similar roles (a gaming surface!) but the G&G campaign started significantly later, and may deliver earlier.

I was planning on using my tiles from SW as a display board, but had to chop off a piece of my Frontline MegaMat to use for that instead, in the interim...

The jersey and hesco barriers I got also have noticeable print lines, though not quite as bad as the tank. Well, the Hesco ones are pretty bad, but they kind of blend in due to the cage aspect. I also got a junked half-track-car thing which was okay, and a corner barricade which has as many lines on it, and are as noticeable as those on the tank. Like I said, in a "Bag o crap" I have no problems with them. I'll probably buy more hesco and jersey barriers, based on the ones I got in the bags, but the "higher end" stuff, I'm not so excited about buying at retail, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cyporiean wrote:

It's entirely likely that the stuff in the bag of crap.. Is crap, and not what the retail product looks like.

While it's lovely that you want to defend your mate, the displayed piece of scenery had a great big air bubble hole in the bottom of it which was pretty clearly where the "crap" part came from. Now, while I'm no rocket surgeon, but to my simpleton brain, these resin things come out of a mould, and those horizontal print lines would have had to also be part of the mould. Now if there were any evidence that Justin got all of the half dozen different pieces that I received with similar print lines reprinted, (or manually cleaned them up) and remade the moulds for all of them, and all the stuff I got were simply the "first run" which has now been fixed up, and the air bubbles that they all had were just additional reasons for them to be in the "Bag o Crap" then I might be able to agree with you.

None of the bases had anything like this in terms of print lines, btw. And one of the scenic pieces was also fine, as noted previously. Excepting the air bubbles, which is why it ...was crap.

Like I said. I'd buy "bags o crap" again in a heartbeat. I'll likely buy more hescos and jerseys. I just wouldn't be as trusting on the larger pieces until I saw production models sent to customers, not perfect McDonalds' Hamburger pictures that were less lined.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RiTides wrote:
I mean, I'm still interested in this, it's just that I had to come up with another solution for my display board in the interim... I also got the Warsmith board whalemusic, and it's an interesting solution too (but very different). Not sure what got me to pledge for so many different board solutions at once I guess I'll do a nice big comparison post / review when they all come in!

I'm interested in mine arriving. Maybe less so on ordering more or backing the next KS to be manufactured by WGF unless the savings are considerably more considerable.

Huh, look at all the ranting and raving.

::waits for apologist brigade to show::

 Azazelx wrote:


I'm interested in mine arriving. Maybe less so on ordering more or backing the next KS to be manufactured by WGF unless the savings are considerably more considerable.

Same here. I'm still waiting on THREE KS projects that are being produced from WGF, none of which I've received anything from yet. The earliest being DFG, then secret weapon then KDM. WGF, they make nice models but damn if I'm not going to just wait for retail next time.

I was hoping to get these before I was out of the military. Now i am almost 3 months out and I am still waiting on them My friend did the Mega Mats by Frontline Gaming and already has his. I like Kickstarter but with how things are going I agree with Sining I'd rather wait for retail.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Huh, look at all the ranting and raving.

::waits for apologist brigade to show::

What ranting? If you think my post is ranting and raving then you must be new to the internet.

No, I posted similar complaints earlier and was shouted down for "ranting" and "having my panties in a bunch".

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
No, I posted similar complaints earlier and was shouted down for "ranting" and "having my panties in a bunch".

I believe your bunched panties were mentioned when you were demanding recompense or retribution for a project being late. Not simply for complaining. But don't let facts get in the way of your next diatribe.

Show me a demand.

No one shouted you down, there was discussion. You've apparently decided to react to people disagreeing with you with smug martyrdom. That's your choice, don't pretend that your opinion is being repressed.

 SavageRobby wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
No, I posted similar complaints earlier and was shouted down for "ranting" and "having my panties in a bunch".

I believe your bunched panties were mentioned when you were demanding recompense or retribution for a project being late. Not simply for complaining. But don't let facts get in the way of your next diatribe.

So empty complaining is fine, but trying to get a company to stand by their word and provide some compensation for blowing well past their projected time table for delivery is going too far? Interesting.

The passivity of our community is troubling at times.

It doesn't matter, though. The number of people upset by the delay is growing and goodwill is lessening. If SWM wants to do some damage control the ball is in their court.

I agree with plastictrees, the complaints were actually noted (and many of us agree with the sentiments). No one is shouting you down... so, yeah. Agree to agree

I think Secret Weapon is doing their best on this, the delay really is out of their hands... I'm not happy about it, but I'm reserving judgement.

So far, my best KS experiences have been with campaigns that have delivered an out-of-this-world product... for better or worse, they are almost all late.

I've backed 36 projects, and only 2 have delivered on-time, and only 1 was for a physical item. That was, coincidentally, Frontline Gaming's campaign for the MegaMats.

But why was it on time? Partly because, it operated like no other campaign I have been a part of has... namely, it took very little feedback on board and was pushing forward with something they basically were ready to hit "go" on producing, and just needed cash to do it.

Personally, I'm not as much of a fan of that kind of campaign... and heck, even many of those are late! For campaigns that are more of a process, an item still being developed (sometimes in conjunction with backer feedback), it's a lot harder to set a firm timeline.

Like I said, other than that, only one campaign I've been a part of has delivered on-time, and it was digital... that's about 5% . If I had to guess, I don't think more than 10% of miniature gaming related campaigns deliver on time... just the nature of the platform and the learning curve of many creators new to projects on a larger scale, that they had no way of creating before.

 RiTides wrote:


But why was it on time? Partly because, it operated like no other campaign I have been a part of has... namely, it took very little feedback on board and was pushing forward with something they basically were ready to hit "go" on producing, and just needed cash to do it.

Personally, I'm not as much of a fan of that kind of campaign... and heck, even many of those are late! For campaigns that are more of a process, an item still being developed (sometimes in conjunction with backer feedback), it's a lot harder to set a firm timeline.

To me, that is an example of a responsible campaign. Others that I have backed and shipped on time are:

Bob Olley's Victorian Scrunt campaign delivered roughly on time (only a few weeks late which is wonderful compared to other campaigns), had great communication, and didn't go overboard with the stretch goals.

Table War mini case campaign (by the same guys who brought you the Frontline Gaming mats) delivered close to on time, and with the exception of some freebies that were not sent out, was conducted flawlessly.

Front LIne Gaming's mat. My mat won't arrive until early May, but was scheduled for April, so I don't consider that a problem.

Different strokes, I guess. If any of those companies conducted future Kickstarters for projects I was interested in I'd back them in a heartbeat because they have shown themselves to be good stewards of my money. I cannot say the same for other companies whose projects I've backed.

 RiTides wrote:
just the nature of the platform and the learning curve of many creators new to projects on a larger scale, that they had no way of creating before.

While I vehemently disagree with this statement, it is a great segue into a question I have had for the last few weeks while posting in this discussion.

What recourse, if any, do project creators have when their contracted manufacturers miss deadlines? Having never dealt in this area I am clueless as to what a standard agreement might be, but are there ever any clauses that reimburse or in some other way compensate Company A when Company B fails to deliver?

It seems to be the case, as Mantic got SWM and WGF to fast track their boards, so do these agreements exist? Is SWM benefiting in some way monetarily due to this delay (and if so should that benefit be shared with the backers)? Or is WGF really holding the campaigns' money hostage until they get to SWM's place in their ever expanding project queue?

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:


It seems to be the case, as Mantic got SWM and WGF to fast track their boards, so do these agreements exist? Is SWM benefiting in some way monetarily due to this delay (and if so should that benefit be shared with the backers)? Or is WGF really holding the campaigns' money hostage until they get to SWM's place in their ever expanding project queue?

Keep in mind I took Contracts seven years ago, got a C, and really only looked at US common law, so, you know, don't expect an expert answer.

Absent specific clauses in the contract setting penalties for missing deadlines (think late payment fees for rent), there isn't much you can do about a late supplier outside of suing them. Now, assuming the contract included hard deadlines (and few deadlines in manufacturing can be hard), you can only recover the loss you can show by the delay. It's not like when your Moons over My Hammy is late at Denny's and the manager comps you.

The problem right now with plastics manufacturing is that there is only one affordable and reliable supplier, and that's WGF. Alienating them is not really an option. They are simply overbooked. Airlines do it, so do manufacturers. In a more stable market, SWM could get their money back, and find an alternate vendor, especially if the delay is "unreasonable." Right now? It's WGF or nobody at that price point.

As for why mantic got their boards first/early? No clue. Could be part of the language, could be that the product was quicker and easier to put out. Maybe Mantic and SWM want to stay on good terms.

As for "benefiting monetarily," that's a tricky thing to judge. Is saving money by taking a delay a monetary benefit? Who is to say.

Deep down, you seem to think view Kickstarters, as being what they are treated as, but actually aren't. They aren't preorders, and you don't have a contractual right to anything. You are, quite literally, investing in a project in exchange for a return of goods. That's all. You can't sue a company for not issuing a dividend, although Microsoft shareholders tried. It's simply not the way the business is run.

DarkTraveler, it does seem to me that campaigns that are just ready to hit "go" are the kind you would prefer... but I would definitely say that is not how this campaign was, or how it was presented. They were working on the renders throughout the campaign and weren't even close to having them finalized at the end- a lot was just concept art.

When you back a project at the concept art stage, it is much more of a journey... you either enjoy that process (assuming regular updates) or not. Personally, I enjoy it, and prefer it over "just push go" campaigns... it's the aspect of Kickstarter I enjoy most, seeing a project go from a somewhat early concept (although not TOO early ) to fruition!