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Howdy all, while not everyone else has their book yet, one thing that popped out at me is using marker lights to fire seeker missiles at flyers.

Now, normally you must snap shoot to hit a flyer.

However, if you have a seeker missile you can fire it by expending a markerlight hit on a target unit (in this case a flyer), and your seeker missile is resolved at BS5 in addition to some other effects.

So what happens when you try and use a seeker versus a flyer via a marker light? Does BS5 apply or BS 1 for a snap shot? I lean towards BS5, but I can see it going either way. Thoughts?

You will Snap Shot to hit with the Markerlight(unless it has skyfire for some reason) and then if you hit you can then fire a Seeker missile at normal ballistic skill(which is 5)

 Grey Templar wrote:
You will Snap Shot to hit with the Markerlight(unless it has skyfire for some reason) and then if you hit you can then fire a Seeker missile at normal ballistic skill(which is 5)

That is not correct at all, according to the FaQ:

Q: If Seeker Missiles are fired at a Zooming Flyer or Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, what To Hit roll do they require? (p31)
A: 6+

https://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2940051a_Tau_Empire_v1.2_JANUARY13.pdf

That FAQ is for a previous codex, not the one out today. It's all up in the air until then!

I agree that the Seeker missile would not fire using the BS5 against the flyer...or more appropriately, it would fire but the snap shot rule would still apply and take precedence over the BS5 and instead make the shot resolve at BS1.

Unless of course the firing model has the Skyfire special rule, in which case I don't see why it wouldn't/couldn't use that model's BS.


It is nebulous, however, and should be FAQ'd.

Shas'o_Longshot wrote:
That FAQ is for a previous codex, not the one out today. It's all up in the air until then!

it does not matter, as the FaQ for Zooming flyers says that "Only snap shots can hit a zooming flyer."

So you can not hit a zooming flyer with anything but a snapshot without specific exception, like the skyfire rule etc.

Shas'o_Longshot wrote:
That FAQ is for a previous codex, not the one out today. It's all up in the air until then!

Agreed, but nothing has changed in the regard with how the Seeker was and is resolved at BS5 in both codexes, so there's no reason the FAQ answer should change (except for the fact that I think it is a stupidly restrictive answer personally).

 yakface wrote:

Shas'o_Longshot wrote:
That FAQ is for a previous codex, not the one out today. It's all up in the air until then!

Agreed, but nothing has changed in the regard with how the Seeker was and is resolved at BS5 in both codexes, so there's no reason the FAQ answer should change (except for the fact that I think it is a stupidly restrictive answer personally).

When I got a chance to look at the codex, it said along the lines of "resolved at BS5". Which is a set value instead of a modifier, so the Codex trumps Rule Book exception comes into play. IIRC It was phrased just like that in the older codex. That interpretation didn't change until they decided to change it for some reasons. Because our Anti Air, sky ray, unit needs 6s on 6s to hit a flyer is just plane stupid.

The old FAQ is also taken down so anything in that one has no bearing with the new codex.

The Skyray has a Velocity Tracker, so it only needs 6's to hit a flyer if you want it to.

seekers can get Skyfire now, so that should solve alot. The Skyray being one way and broadsides another.

Big Change is that they now DO effect the VEHICLE that fire them and force it to fire all weapons at that target like a normal shooting attack. Odd thing is suits can take Seekers now but by raw can't use seekers as all methods to fire talk about a Vehicle, so that will be getting FAQd.

There's nothing stopping you dumb-firing them as a normal weapon. It's only the Markerlight guided strike that talks about vehicles.

I thought that the markerlight now said it could modify snapshots? If it can I would say that it would resolve at BS5 as it already allows it to modify the snap shot ruling. If it does not, than GW will probably disallow it.

Chrysis wrote:
There's nothing stopping you dumb-firing them as a normal weapon. It's only the Markerlight guided strike that talks about vehicles.

Missed that change, I thought they still had to be markerlighted.

Ok, just had a look and a think and it's pretty clear. Page 68.
You choose what markerlight effects to use and remove counters in order to have those effects apply.

"Pinpoint" specifically states that it increases the BS of snap-shots. "Seeker" - the ability used to fire a Seeker missile via markerlight - does not. You could, however, pinpoint the target and then fire a Seeker missile at it.

Without Pinpoint in place, all Seeker missiles will fire as snap-shots, as the only other wording in the Seeker rule is that it's resolved at BS5. We already know that snap-shot overrides this, just as it does for... ooh... every other unit out there resolving their shots with a BS value in the first place.

Seeker missiles have their own set value for BS, snap shots is another set value.

Winner? Tau codex.

Ok.....so what happens if the marker light on the bomber hits another flyer? Can it then cook off a seeker from a devilfish for example at bs5?

 juraigamer wrote:
Seeker missiles have their own set value for BS, snap shots is another set value.

Winner? Tau codex.

Incorrect. Precedents from other Codexes have taught us this (for instance, Telion or the Devastator Sergeant's Signum).
(added) Here it is, Rulebook FAQ:

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules
that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice
of Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

Lovepug13 wrote:
Ok.....so what happens if the marker light on the bomber hits another flyer? Can it then cook off a seeker from a devilfish for example at bs5?

Tbh with the amount of anti air already available In the book it wouldn't surprise me not that I'm complaining as i have just started a tau army

Lovepug13 wrote:
Ok.....so what happens if the marker light on the bomber hits another flyer? Can it then cook off a seeker from a devilfish for example at bs5?

Whoops, didn't see this, or I would've answered it earlier - my bad.
Double-check the markerlight rules - you take off a counter that the Bomber left when firing with the new unit. The Bomber's own firing abilities (Skyfire included) don't transfer, as the new unit is in fact the one doing the firing. This means you have to use the Markerlights as I outlined above - Pinpoint will give you a BS boost on Snap Shots, but the Seeker missile doesn't get its BS5.

Well, the vehicle the seeker is attached to is the one firing it (even if it doesn't count towards one of the vehicle's weapon allowance). So if the vehicle has skyfire or can have skyfire than the seeker missile has skyfire.

 Super Ready wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
Seeker missiles have their own set value for BS, snap shots is another set value.

Winner? Tau codex.

Incorrect. Precedents from other Codexes have taught us this (for instance, Telion or the Devastator Sergeant's Signum).
(added) Here it is, Rulebook FAQ:

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules
that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice
of Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

But is Telion and Signum a set modifier or use the same words as "is resolved at"

otherwise a SET on a SET would be resolved by active player. also speaking of which that faq screws with the current markerlight pinpoint which does allow for modifying snap shots.

Telion allows a model in the unit to use his BS.
Signum sets BS to 5 for 1 model.

you could just markerlight the flyer, pinpoint spending X amount of markers to raise BS, then launch seeker missile but you wont get to fire it at BS 5, just BS 1+markerlights spent.

Unless you have Velocity Tracker such as skyray or broadside upgrade your out of luck with the BS5 vs flyers.

The key thing to remember here is that it is NOT just a case of a set value vs. a set value. Only SNAP SHOTS can hit a flyer...and snap shots are BS1. That's a slightly different concept than just saying the shots are BS1 vs. the BS5 per the markerlight rules.

The real question to me is still if you're firing a seeker from a unit that has Skyfire (like a Skyray) and you're using a markerlight counter to launch that seeker, what happens? The Skyfire rule says you're using the model's BS, but then the markerlight launch rules say you're resolving it at BS5. If we can agree that GW's consistent ruling on snap fire overriding set modifiers would apply to the general BS5 from the markerlight launch, I still don't know if you technically have permission from a markerlight launched seeker missile to use the firing model's BS.

I think the common sense approach in that situation is to say that you do use the model's basic BS for a Seeker in that particular case (plus any BS bonuses granted to that unit by markerlights, of course).

 yakface wrote:

The key thing to remember here is that it is NOT just a case of a set value vs. a set value. Only SNAP SHOTS can hit a flyer...and snap shots are BS1. That's a slightly different concept than just saying the shots are BS1 vs. the BS5 per the markerlight rules.

I believe this is slightly inaccurate, and a common misconception, Snap Shots don't NEED to be resolved at BS1 to be Snap Shots, they simply need to count the firing model's ballistic skill as 1, RAW that is what firing Snap Shots does.

The key thing with Seekers (fired by markerlight), is that they never reference any models Ballistic Skill, they just "are resolved at BS5". It doesn't matter what the model with the Seeker Missiles BS is, nor does it matter what it is counting as, because the Seeker Missile rules make abundantly clear that you don't reference that, you just resolve the shot at the provided BS value.

I am of the mind the RAW, both in the old codex, and in this one, supports Seeker Missiles launched by Markerlight using the specified BS5 against Flyers, regardless of Skyfire and/or Hard to Hit.

 Drunkspleen wrote:
I am of the mind the RAW, the old codex supports Seeker Missiles launched by Markerlight using the specified BS5 against Flyers, regardless of Skyfire and/or Hard to Hit.

Which goes against what GW ruled - they still fired at an assumed BS1 against Zoomers/Swoopers.

I only play according to the current FAQs, not historical ones.

 Drunkspleen wrote:
I am of the mind the RAW, both in the old codex, and in this one, supports Seeker Missiles launched by Markerlight using the specified BS5 against Flyers, regardless of Skyfire and/or Hard to Hit.

I underlined the part I was referring to. You claim that RAW the old codex supported BS5 against Hard To Hit. Per the FAQ for the old codex Seeker Missiles still resolve at BS1 vs Hard To Hit. Which is why I removed the part about the new codex from the original quote.

Oh okay I misunderstood.

Still it's not the first time Games Workshop use a FAQ to change the function of something with abundantly clear RAW and it won't be the last.

For example, the FAQ which prevents you from allocating wounds to models beyond the range of all firing weapons really has nothing to do with clarifying the rules that are already there, and fundamentally alters the way wound allocation is handled.

So long as that Seeker Missile FAQ doesn't exist, I will default to the RAW, which I believe is at odds with the old answer.

So technically if we go by RAW, the "Pin-Point" part of the Marker Light doesn't actually work. Since it improves the BS of a Snapshot, and by the current FAQ:

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules
that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau
markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice
of Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

Since FAQ's override Codex... quite comical really from a RAW point of view.